The Kazoku Keikaku case

[Wolfscythe]

Some time ago made a topic about censorship in japan (this), so the other day remembered that i readed some years ago about Kazoku Keikaku being censored by JAST USA, well, seeing the response about the first i wondered what the Fuwan community thinks about this case.

I'm not good explaining things so here is the link to the JAST Forums and some pictures on Sankaku to be more illustrative and of course if someone has first hand experience it would be good to hear about it.

[Steve]

Oh I was going to read only Matsuri route in this game.

I am too afraid to click the links for possible spoilers, only skimmed the JAST forums.

What is the deal? I don't care about uncensoring, I'm used to the Japanese censor. So what did JAST do? Did they censor the loli even more than in JP or what is the controversy here?

I would be happiest if they just left the original censor, didn't like the uncensor in "My girlfriend is the president".

So should I in this case install both English and original version and play H scenes in the original?

Please explain here without spoiler images or anything, I don't want to know even the H CGs.

[Wolfscythe]

Hehe, well... i'm no good trying to explain things but i'll try to. Basically JAST released this title claiming that it would be a fully uncensored version, BUT for exactly the Matsuri route, they not only kept that word, but photoshopped some of the cg.

It’s the principle that matters. We wouldn’t have complained if there was full disclosure, and we would have still plunked down $50 CAD for the game.

Now we simply feel burned and ripped off. JAST USA already announced that all girls were 18 or over. Why did they have to censor these images? Whatever the case, there is no evidence of anyone being informed of this, so what we have here is a flat-out lie.

This was the argument that began the discussion and the response from the CEO of JAST USA was this:

Yes, we did have to make some changes for the American market, which is something we always potentially do for every game.In the Japanese original, there was some vagueness about the age of one of the characters during parts of the game, and since they contained nudity we made the necessary decision to make some small changes.

We hope that fans will take into consideration that these games are licensed for the Western markets which means a different set of potential problem areas for us, and as fans love to play eroge in English, we hope they’ll be understanding when we have to clarify parts of a certain game.

We didn’t mislead anyone and we strove to make we avoided referring to this game as “100% uncensored” since we knew some changes were going to be made.

The story is actually preserved this way, if you play the game, as it’s part of the game that the main character waits for Matsuri to be old enough for a relationship, which we didn’t want to derail by saying she was 18 from the start of the story.

So, in that time the discussion arised with people blaming JAST for "ripping off" this work and how JAST would manage some titles with stronger scenes like the ones from NITRO+ and others saying that it wasn't a great deal, that people were overreacting.

I think that's it for a summary, personally i'm in a middle point, so that's why i wanted to hear others opinions and since Fuwan is a prosperous peaceful village we can discuss this, well, peacefully.

And no Steve, don't see the Sankaku link if you don't want to spoil the CG's.

[Tief Blau]

I myself don't like am not a big fan of loli, but I can make arguments for the censor. I'm not exactly sure where JAST USA sells stuff (I would assume America, but you never know), so I will proceed with the assumption that they are selling products in the States. I wouldn't quote me on any of the below, because my interpretation tends to be a little odd at best. Sorry if this isn't relevant. I'm not sure what to say, _{as I am somewhat uncomfortable with this topic...}

Arguments for the censor:

18 USC 1466A - Simulated (which is to say not real) CP that is obscene is considered CP, punishable by law. Since I didn't actually look at the post or the CG, I can't say, but if it did come to be a legal case, then it would be up to the jury and judge. Since the west has no prior exposure to this, it would most certainly not go that well for JAST USA

Even if the depicted characters were over 18, they would still need to watch out for watchdog groups. As they can make lies into the truth (think Dance in the Vampire Bund?), and generate a lot of publicity for these things. Something that would not be good for business.

Lots of preemptive action taken by US companies to ensure products sell in the States (Mardock Scramble anime) may have also set somewhat of a precedent for how JAST USA was to act with something of that nature.

[Steve]

18 USC 1466A - Simulated (which is to say not real) CP that is obscene is considered CP, punishable by law. Since I didn't actually look at the post or the CG, I can't say, but if it did come to be a legal case, then it would be up to the jury and judge. Since the west has no prior exposure to this, it would most certainly not go that well for JAST USA

And then in President VN they even uncensored the loliest girl, just because she is a {spoiler of like first 10 min}

starship

???

That doesn't make sense. Well if the game is censored for the only route I was going to play (because the girl is similar to Konata from lucky star in few aspects) then I will have to get the original version.

Anyone knows if it is possible to apply the English translation to the original version? Or alternative non-JAST patch?

But if I look at their TL list http://vntls.tindabo.../group/jast+usa I see lot of games that have loli h-scene in them. Now they have saya no uta in progress, that has loli h scene too.. as well as sumaga.

School days has a loli-like character as well and those CGs are even animated.

How did they do these games?

I mean yes, those girls are not 100% loli, its hard to categorize loli because everyone views it in different way. Not even the girl in matter Matsuri is a true loli. By that I mean OBVIOUS loli like this...

I wonder what would they do in Hoshizora no Memoria, there is the imouto route which isnt loli as well, but probably on the same level as Matsuri, but what would they do with the main heroine Mare, that is obvious loli.

Well in the end of writing this, I checked the sankaku anyway and I must say this is disgraceful... Guess ill be very careful when choosing to play a game from JAST. These are not even H scenes and its censored COVERED.

I mean this isn't about it being loli or not, this is obviously changing the game from the original what the authors intended. Maybe some people would not agree if I say that these changes change the impact these scenes can have, but thats what I feel.

Well cant judge in this game, but just imagine this in hoshimemo {quite significant spoiler from true end route}

Imagine that instead of Mare getting undressed totally she would have underwear on - it would change the whole scene so significantly

Well good that I know. If this is what it means to spread VNs in the west and inspire western developers, then I don't really want it. I better focus on learning Japanese faster so I can read it properly. I don't want any of their uncensor, the CGs are beautifully done with the japanese censor and it fits the image, often times the uncensor from JAST actually makes the image worse (thats what I think at least).

I don't know, I think this stuff is just bad for the original product.

I mean when I want good french cheese, then I want the cheese that is almost the same as the french cheese, not a french cheese with added bacon just because bacon is popular in america or whenever (im not actually English so I used little different comparison).

People who are getting into VNs should know what they can expect in the original japanese games and that should include the fact they sometimes add underage looking characters. Its just the way these games are and changing it is no good.

Actually I already raged on this incident of censoring for the west once, if you know an MMO RPG called TERA Online. It is a korean MMO and we (our guild who went to play it) wanted the same experience koreans get, just translated to english. Instead we got this

BEFORE / AFTER

luckily with enough Mods and texture edits we were able to use the original korean art just as it was intended, they didnt ban anyone for that because it was client based edit only and the people who wanted the new western looks could just use those. But I mean this got me raging so much, its not even case of censoring some important parts, it was just belly. They could make it a turn on/off function in options but no, we had to mod the game instead...

Well tl;dr: if I want a product from different country, I want that product just as they have him in the different country, not uncensored, not censored, not edited. But I guess that is the american way of doing things - make foreign products look like american stuff, thus removing all the factors that make it foreign...

[Wolfscythe]

I myself don't like am not a big fan of loli, but I can make arguments for the censor. I'm not exactly sure where JAST USA sells stuff (I would assume America, but you never know), so I will proceed with the assumption that they are selling products in the States. I wouldn't quote me on any of the below, because my interpretation tends to be a little odd at best. Sorry if this isn't relevant. I'm not sure what to say, _{as I am somewhat uncomfortable with this topic...}

Arguments for the censor:

18 USC 1466A - Simulated (which is to say not real) CP that is obscene is considered CP, punishable by law. Since I didn't actually look at the post or the CG, I can't say, but if it did come to be a legal case, then it would be up to the jury and judge. Since the west has no prior exposure to this, it would most certainly not go that well for JAST USA

Even if the depicted characters were over 18, they would still need to watch out for watchdog groups. As they can make lies into the truth (think Dance in the Vampire Bund?), and generate a lot of publicity for these things. Something that would not be good for business.

Lots of preemptive action taken by US companies to ensure products sell in the States (Mardock Scramble anime) may have also set somewhat of a precedent for how JAST USA was to act with something of that nature.

Yep, that's pretty much the case, but as Steve said:

But if I look at their TL list http://vntls.tindabo.../group/jast+usa I see lot of games that have loli h-scene in them. Now they have saya no uta in progress, that has loli h scene too.. as well as sumaga.

School days has a loli-like character as well and those CGs are even animated.

How did they do these games?

I mean yes, those girls are not 100% loli, its hard to categorize loli because everyone views it in different way. Not even the girl in matter Matsuri is a true loli. By that I mean OBVIOUS loli like this...

The thing is that, don't know if those VN's came out with or without censoring, like in the case of School Days with the Kokoro H-CG's (haven't played them yet...) but if that kind of material is illegal in the country you're going to distribute, well, at least you leave that matter clear to your audience, something like Hirameki, if you bought something from them you knew that all the H-CG wouldn't be there because their localizations were like that. And that is the position JAST USA is in, with their customers don't knowing what to expect from them.

In another point, I agree with Steve in this:

I don't know, I think this stuff is just bad for the original product.

I mean when I want good french cheese, then I want the cheese that is almost the same as the french cheese, not a french cheese with added bacon just because bacon is popular in america or whenever (im not actually English so I used little different comparison).

People who are getting into VNs should know what they can expect in the original japanese games and that should include the fact they sometimes add underage looking characters. Its just the way these games are and changing it is no good.

Some days ago found a topic here where they were arguing about the quality of fan-translations (sorry, can't find the topic) but it's something like that, when you read a fan-translation you know it's a fan-made and you expect some kind of quality, and it's different from the quality that a company can offer, not that the fan-tl are bad (of course it depends on the translator(s)), but you know it's made from a fan that likes to do that and isn't putting his/her job in the line for the quality of the work they give. So, going on, in this specific case where we're talking about a company, it's weird that they apply different criteria for the games, in other words, again Kazoku Keikaku VS the other titles with loli-type chars.

And well, that's in the regard of the lolis, there is another game that is said to contain bestiality which is also illegal in the States, the title is Starless and here is the JAST USA forums link, but my question is, why they pick this kind of games when they know that it's contents must be censored? and that when they release them they will get hordes of mad fans claiming that they "ripped off" the original work?

I'm not really raging against JAST, but as a VN reader this kind of things worries me, that's all, so I'd like that they had a firmer posture in the way they do this things.

[sanahtlig]

The changes JAST made were pretty minor--they just censored 3 HCGs I believe. There's a decensor patch on the net that restores them. Their decision is somewhat justified by the implied theme that Matsuri was too immature for a sexual relationship when the initial scenes happened.

More serious than this, in my opinion, was their decision to not localize the 18+ version of Eien no Aselia due to the loli content.

Also, School Days doesn't really have loli ero content.

From what I can tell, JAST has issues with content that is graphically very loli, or where character attributes or story imply the character is a child. Demonbane and My Girlfriend is the President have pseudo-lolis, and the content wasn't altered. Sumaga has a pretty definite loli, and JAST seems fine with that. I'm annoyed by their obsession with loli content, but for the most part it doesn't seem to have prevented them from bringing over games with loli characters I like. As long as this continues to be true, I won't be terribly upset.

JAST operates out of California, so unfortunately they have to pay attention to US law regarding obscenity. There's been a few low profile prosecutions against people possessing loli ero doujinshi and manga, but no convictions (the defendants plead guilty). Therefore it's quite unclear at present whether loli content is prohibited by US law, and exactly what constitutes prohibited loli content.

[sanahtlig]

Also, there's a much longer thread discussing the Family Project changes (created after the previous thread was closed):

http://www.jastusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6199

The debate is considerably more heated in this thread, and highlights the differences in viewpoint between those that are merely anti-censorship and those that like loli content. The former demand games not be altered; the latter want to minimize loss of loli content. Believe it or not, these viewpoints are not particularly compatible.