Dark Ariel7 Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Well I'll be a gentleman here. And end this meaningless banter, since you kids clearly can't agree on any point what so ever. I will let you believe whatever it is that you will. Good day to you Well that is just childish. And you clearly do not know what gentleman means. That is just taking an uppity attitude and walking out in the middle of what I had presumed to be a civilized conversation. A chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man is what is considered a gentleman. Please do not mistake that. It is just being condescending. LiquidShu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Chivalry is misogyny in disguise. Think Shirou Emiya. Also, Please explain. Pretty much this snippet from Rooke's post: The danger, however, is if gallantry begets the notion that women are less than or need special favours in order to succeed. Men and women might subconsciously receive that message and carry it with them to their schoolyards, workplaces and marriages. If your girlfriend is too "delicate" to change a tire, is a female manager too "weak" to run your board? And if you believe that he should pay for dinner, are you more willing to accept a lower salary? When you put women on a pedestal, you're playing into gender stereotypes. You're conforming to the notion that women are delicate, weak, need special care, need to be protected. Sound familiar? That's how we treat children. Chivalry is born from a long tradition of condescension towards women. Shirou Emiya is the prototypical male with "knight in shining armor" complex who feels it's his duty to protect the weak woman beside him--and his idiocy should be self evident. It's one of his more glaring character faults. Chivalry in VNs is all fine and dandy--as long as you recognize that it's a fictional idealization of gender roles for the purpose of entertainment. You know, like lolis and devoted little sisters. As for the real world, true equality means breaking free from the constraints of the outdated concept of gender roles. Darklord Rooke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Pretty much this snippet from Rooke's post: When you put women on a pedestal, you're playing into gender stereotypes. You're conforming to the notion that women are delicate, weak, need special care, need to be protected. Sound familiar? That's how we treat children. Chivalry is born from a long tradition of condescension towards women. Shirou Emiya is the prototypical male with "knight in shining armor" complex who feels it's his duty to protect the weak woman beside him--and his idiocy should be self evident. It's one of his more glaring character faults. Chivalry in VNs is all fine and dandy--as long as you recognize that it's a fictional idealization of gender roles for the purpose of entertainment. You know, like lolis and devoted little sisters. As for the real world, true equality means breaking free from the constraints of the outdated concept of gender roles. You raise some fair points and for the most part I agree with you. However I feel that "white knighting" is different from actual chivalry. White knighting is having delusional concepts about women, chivalry is simply acting in a respectful and decent manner towards women (generally during flirtation or during formal occasions). In the same way that men don't want to hear women talk about their periods, women don't want to hear dick jokes. It's not sexist to censor yourself and act politely in front of a women you're flirting with, its being thoughtful and not appearing like a jerk. Or as Slowpoke so wonderfully put it, "not being a fucking asshole". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Chivalry has a meaning: it refers to the code of honor upheld by medieval knights. Gender stereotypes and unequal treatment of women are built into that. If they aren't, it's not chivalry anymore. Simply respecting an individual's wishes is not chivalry. However, as soon as you make sweeping assumptions like "all women don't like X", you're slipping into gender stereotype territory. Expecting "ladies" to be submissive and asexual is a component of the Medieval chivalric world view, and represents a facet of the gender discrimination that dominated in that era. In the modern age, women are often discouraged from talking about sex and making sexual jokes in private company, whereas men are permitted to do so. Likewise, women are victimized for being sexually active outside a stable monogamous relationship, whereas men aren't. These are all consequences of the world view that chivalry was born from and perpetuates. People tend to be oblivious to the consequences of putting others on a pedestal: the higher the pedestal you erect, the greater the fall when they slip. And that doesn't apply only to women. Roach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Going with the classic definition of chivalry then yes you are correct. But as we all know words and their meanings change overtime. As Dark Ariel7 even pointed out in his first post, when we refer to a gentlemen we are not referring to a member of the landed gentry class with the honorific "Sir" in front of their name. I really do feel that in this day in age when people say "that man is gentlemanly" they are just saying that he is polite, hospitable, and mostly just not an asshole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Going with the classic definition of chivalry then yes you are correct. But as we all know words and their meanings change overtime. While it is true that words do change meaning over time, chivalry is not one of them. Chivalry is not politeness or kindness and I doubt it will ever evolve to mean politeness or kindness. If I showed kindness to my neighbour that isn't chivalry, if I showed kindness to my very elderly and frail neighbour by helping him down the stairs, that IS chivalry. If a bunch of thieves broke into my elderly neighbour's house and I helped drive them away, that would be chivalry. If my neighbour is an able-bodied marine wielding a rifle, not chivalry. Roach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 While it is true that words do change meaning over time, chivalry is not one of them. Chivalry is not politeness or kindness and I doubt it will ever evolve to mean politeness or kindness. If I showed kindness to my neighbour that isn't chivalry, if I showed kindness to my very elderly and frail neighbour by helping him down the stairs, that IS chivalry. If a bunch of thieves broke into my elderly neighbour's house and I helped drive them away, that would be chivalry. If my neighbour is an able-bodied marine wielding a rifle, not chivalry. When you're beat you're beat, which I am. I have no counter points to make. I guess I didn't mean to refer to chivalry (which you are correct about), but I meant the term "gentlemen" as DarkAriel7 was originally talking about earlier. And I think the word gentleman has changed. If somebody calls a young man a gentlemen these days they tend to mean he has good and proper manners and is polite. However as the term "gentlemen" evolved I supposed it severed some of its classical connotations with chivalry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawm Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I generally treat women better than men, but I'm a highly manipulative person. I wear a different mask for different people. I'm only ever a "gentleman" when I want to get laid. Works far better than the "asshole" approach, contrary to popular belief. Most people I know do treat women with more respect than they do men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Ariel7 Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 I generally treat women better than men, but I'm a highly manipulative person. I wear a different mask for different people. I'm only ever a "gentleman" when I want to get laid. Works far better than the "asshole" approach, contrary to popular belief. Most people I know do treat women with more respect than they do men. I wouldn't know about either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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