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Visual novels - making them more popular in the west? how?


FoggyOrchid

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And that was what I meant. VNs are supposed to be fantasy, but for one thing, why do most VNs focus on only one gender? For another, why is it that only beautiful girls gather around you? If you've got a harem, there should be at least one not-so-hot girl. And if it's a one-girl-only type of thing, there should be at least one charming-but-not-so-hot girl. And I don't mean when in-game characters look at a really good looking girl and say they're ugly. I mean an actual girl who's not so beautiful, but has a better personality than anyone else.

why would you question beautiful girls gathering around you? they have to be appealing to you so you can enjoy it,what's the point if you don't like the character? ,they are targeted towards male audience i mean come on

 

anyway you're getting off topic here...as always

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And that was what I meant. VNs are supposed to be fantasy, but for one thing, why do most VNs focus on only one gender? For another, why is it that only beautiful girls gather around you? If you've got a harem, there should be at least one not-so-hot girl. And if it's a one-girl-only type of thing, there should be at least one charming-but-not-so-hot girl. And I don't mean when in-game characters look at a really good looking girl and say they're ugly. I mean an actual girl who's not so beautiful, but has a better personality than anyone else.

like i said most people don't read VNs for the realism  ^_^

 

why would you question beautiful girls gathering around you? they have to be appealing to you so you can enjoy it,what's the point if you don't like the character? ,they are targeted towards male audience i mean come on

 

but i do think he has a good point 

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A major turn-off about VNs for most Westerners is the reliance on text-based narration and lack of interactivity.  In Western media, there's games, and there's books, and VNs don't fit well into either category.

 

Interactive movies like School Days are one potential option to appeal to Westerners.  These would appeal to anime fans, however there's very few of these in Japanese so there's not much source material to work with.

 

Another option is VNs with RPG elements.  JRPGs already have a wide following, and they're already used to storytelling being a major feature of the games.  One drawback is that much of the established JRPG playerbase is on consoles, so convincing them to make the platform leap to PCs can be challenging.  VNs with RPG elements are also much more challenging to localize due to the need for graphics editing and meddling with complex game engines.

 

VNs with branching storylines probably also have greater innate appeal to a Western audience.  It's one advantage of the medium that books don't do well and most other games don't bother with, and it can add to the sense of immersion.  Many of Elf's games (e.g., Kawarazaki-ke no Ichizoku 2) do this very effectively, as does School Days.  Choices and branching storylines are a way to incorporate "gameplay" into a VN with no actual gameplay system.

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He's not getting off-topic. But you have a point (kinda). In visual novels, it's not really a common thing for characters to actually appear. If they do, it's because they are important. Unlike anime, in which you have to draw each and everyone. Unlike books, in which you don't have to say "she's beautiful" because it's all up to the reader's imagination unless there's a very specific reason for her to be beautiful or ugly.

 

In VNs, since only a select few characters appear, it's only natural that the artist will make them as special as possible. For the very same reason, VNs tend to keep themselves from bringing too many characters to the status of visual importance, according to their structures, how they behave in terms of routes etc.

 

However, that's not something we shouldn't question. Is it possible to make VNs with a higher number of relevant characters without making it look conspicuosly like a harem? Can we break the gender barrier, making primarily stories that cater to everyone?

 

Well, yes, but here I'd like to reference Kamidori. I have a lot of experience with the game, and even minor characters are depicted, so far as to have people that look like bad guys but are actually neutral. It's an amazing game, and it's even better with the amount of detail it puts to everything. Unfortunately, it's not like Utawarerumono, where all the characters appear and all of them are important. Even 999 was good, with people having different and diverse personalities. And Steins;Gate had Daru and Braun, so it's definitely god-tier (Kami-ge?) in my books.

 

like i said most people don't read VNs for the realism  ^_^

but i do think he has a good point 

 

Well, most of the time, yes. But with some games, you come to expect a sense of realism, and I'd rather have a story that's realistic, which is why I instantly liked Huniepop, despite the unattractive gameplay.

 

A major turn-off about VNs for most Westerners is the reliance on text-based narration and lack of interactivity.  In Western media, there's games, and there's books, and VNs don't fit well into either category.

 

Interactive movies like School Days are one potential option to appeal to Westerners.  These would appeal to anime fans, however there's very few of these in Japanese so there's not much source material to work with.  Another option is VNs with RPG elements.  JRPGs already have a wide following, and they're already used to storytelling being a major feature of the games.  One drawback is that much of the established JRPG playerbase is on consoles, so convincing them to make the platform leap to PCs can be challenging.  VNs with RPG elements are also much more challenging to localize due to the need for graphics editing and meddling with complex game engines.

 

Is it possible to like a post twice? Because I'd love to like this one twice.

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Well, most of the time, yes. But with some games, you come to expect a sense of realism, and I'd rather have a story that's realistic, which is why I instantly liked Huniepop, despite the unattractive gameplay.

 

 

 

i see your point but first let me say this i don't think VNs are "game's" so expecting a sense of realism in a game yeah why not if that's what you like then go for it and like sanahtlig said VNs are not books nor games at least to the west so for me at least they don't need realism 

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Sense of realism is very, very likely not to be what SanadaShadow actually wants to say. We do want VNs, like any other story really, to be able to suspend our disbelief. Stories that are inconsistent or suspisioucly filled with pretty girls that fall in love with you sometimes can't do that.

i see you may be right sorry for misunderstanding its just realism in games and VNs is not my thing maybe that's why i'm not understanding 

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Sense of realism is very, very likely not to be what SanadaShadow actually wants to say. We do want VNs, like any other story really, to be able to suspend our disbelief. Stories that are inconsistent or suspisioucly filled with pretty girls that fall in love with you sometimes can't do that.

That SanadaShadow! He's always causing trouble :P

 

We are the community that needs to spread the word.

I think it starts with us. Were fucking pioneers here, we have a responsibility to the West to show everyone what real entertainment is

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As far as "sense of realism" goes, I prefer games with a self-consistent world.  It doesn't have to be "realistic"; it just needs to make sense within the confines of its setting.  Thus I like high fantasy settings with detailed lore that draw you into the world.  I frown upon games that twist and bend rules of the setting in a way that seems contrived--one reason I didn't like No Game No Life as much as others seem to have.

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I remember reading something about visual novels not being popular among the general public of japan because of it Explicit material.

So if that is the case directing visual novels towards children would not really help would it ?

 

I didn't say it, so I apologize for not making it clearer, but I was referring specifically to OELVNs here. Ecchi = no. As soon as that stigma becomes widespread, then making visual novels a mainstream thing is going to be a LOT harder, because you instantly lose social currency for sporting porn. Luckily, those sorts of VNs are at this point relatively unknown. Hopefully, it stays that way. 

 

 

Let us hope that your game will be the one.  ;)

 

Or any other member here for the matter. I get the feeling that if the person that can make the game with all the above awesomeness, it would be nice if he were from here.

 

 

Thank you Babiker! ;) I'll try my best. I'm taking a bit of a different route to most of the Western visual novels I've seen in that I'm trying to raise capital through other business dealings before I start to make the VN. I have an artist in mind (who I think is mindblowingly amazing) and a significant amount of money will be spent on marketing as well as trying to get a few people well-known in the anime community to contribute bits to the VN. I'll be heavily play-testing whatever I write in the battlefield: with the help of a critical anime lover who's not afraid to say what's awesome and what's crap. We've got a recording studio lined up for the OP/ED. 

So, I'd love for this VN to be one of the groundbreakers. It may only be 1-2 hours long, even, but the aim is for it to be mostly perfect. I doubt that's easy, but there's a small possibility of that happening and that should be enough to work with. ;)

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Sorry for double posting, I only just now figured out what the multiquote button is used for, haha.
 

I wonder... do we want VNs to be popular in the West or do we want the culture usually bundled with them to be popular? The difference is huge.

 

If what we want is spreading visual novels as a storytelling and gaming format, that is, providing an individual, flexible experience (as opposed to collective, fixed-length movies, even though the experience of watching movies has changed a lot too) that includes a story that may adjust itself to the user's choices as s/he reads while also using visual and sound assets to improve said storytelling, then the path involves calling the attention of novel writers as well as game designers, artists and musicians to an already existing, but unexplored medium. Like film once was, like computer gaming once was - never forget Shigesato Itoi, who wrote Earthbound, isn't a game designer, but a writer - heck, like even modern literature was. The way stories are told hasn't been there forever you see. Artists love the unexplored, the experimental.

 

On the other hand, if what we want is for the stories we usually see in VNs to be popular, each route corresponding to a love interest, heroine archetypes and all the lexicon we know and love, then the key lies in catering to the otaku crowd. Anime that derives from visual novels have this effect, but when have we ever seen famous anime or manga adaptations in visual novel format? Do you see VNs being sold or talked about in anime cons? That's an already established circus we can explore.

 

Spot on about this difference. 

Regarding famous anime or manga adaptations in visual novel format, there's actually quite a few. Not necessarily famous, but you can see Oreimo or Toradora in visual novel format. 

IceD, on 12 Jul 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

You're asking whether it's possible to make visual novels more popular on the west? That's not possible and judging from the past, I doubt it will ever change. Visual novel market by definition is condemned to be a niche, thus you can forget about "popularity"; that word simply won't ever fit well to vn's. There's a couple of factors that makes things popular, you'd have to take into considertation: high accessibility, admiration, comprehensibility. Visual novels have none of these; it's a medium targeted at very specific part of our society - mostly intelligent people, those who like to read a lot and those who are either familiar or remain fans of japanese popculture.

 

At the same time, any means to change these factors and make it better, will actually only cause harm to visual novels; it's because if you take away all those important things - the anime-styled graphics, specific vocabulary and form of presentation - they won't be visual novels anymore; thus, sacrificing certain parts of this medium to increase awarness through western consumers is futile, as most of them won't ever become actual consumers in the first place. You should rather ask yourselves what kinds of people could actually become potential consumers; you'll see, that possibilities in this case are really limited and everything is self-contained, just like the japanese market itself.

 

I'd rather say the only thing that would really matter is that the industry should try to grow a bit more before we start to talk about conquering the gaming world; we need actual western developers, producing high quality games. We need games, which aren't simply otaku-pandering crap like Sakura Spirit, but games which revolve around western-themed settings, while retaining the most important factors - the graphics, style, presentation and form. The only way to make more people interested in visual novels would be to make games, which are really close to us, something we could relate to.

 

So far, I've yet to see a single, good western visual novel, including all the aforementioned elements. Western developers often look up to japanese vn's way too much, without any sort of consideration for their own market. This makes western vn's poorly made clones, which will never even partially match the level of decent japanese vn's. they need to make another step and stop the weeaboo-centric pandering. Otherwise western industry will always remain within it's pit of despair.

 

I don't think VNs are necessarily inaccessible, considering that many VNs are primarily reading by adult male teenagers. In addition, you say that there's a lot of stuff to sacrifice if you take away some of the things that make up a Japanese VN. Sure, Western visual novels won't necessarily be visual novels as we currently know it, but I think the only thing you'd have to change is the writing. Anime-styled graphics, although considered a niche, is still quite popular even if not mainstream. Music is mostly universal except for songs (where OPs and EDs are very different). I really agree with this statement, though: "We need games, which aren't simply otaku-pandering crap like Sakura Spirit, but games which revolve around western-themed settings, while retaining the most important factors - the graphics, style, presentation and form." 

 

The real question is: would you read a visual novel, which is entirely western-themed, follows western conventions and lacks the appeal of a typical japanese visual novel, including anime-themed graphics?

 

Probably not, to be honest. This is speaking from an otaku perspective, so for most people that answer would lean towards no, probably. However, this is EXACTLY why VNs aren't necessarily popular. As open-minded as we may or may not be, the fact is that the familiar beats the unfamiliar in terms of what people like. This truth is rooted all the way down to a person's physical being, where people like you more if you're more like them. But, just like it may be hard to convince Westerner's to try VNs, it would be equally difficult for a Westerner to convince an otaku to read an Arabic legend. They are both probably very interesting at heart. That doesn't mean that that's enough to convince someone. 

 

If new stories were written by Westerners it would bring a new angle to the entire scene. Because our cultures are so different, our ideas flow from different sources. 

 

Also, I will be officially announcing my teams plan to make a VN by the end of July, and depending on how the story plays out, it might be done by the end of September

 

Very, very true. It's a completely different culture. And a Western cultured novel will appeal more to Westerners, simply.

 

That's the whole issue with the western, so-called "oelvn" (gods, how I hate that term) scene. You're spot on, in other words. Unless creators grow up and make another step, it being getting out of that sandbox of theirs, nothing will ever change. I stated it plenty of times and I will state it once again - stop with the otaku-pandering, weeaboo crap; none of those are healthy to the western scene and it's growing industry. It's fine to make references or play jokes, but constant dependence on bad japanese tropes and aesthetics is detrimental to the western industry. No sane, adult person would ever like, not to mention play any of these games.

 

Perhaps it's because many of the current developers trying to engage in creating western vn's have their roots in the same, exact amateur scene and they are still young and immature; you could call them "vn weeaboos". They don't think about consequences of creating a game - they just want to make a vn, as soon as possible and since they often have little to no actual experience what will they do? Copy the games they adore so much, of course. It's perhaps why most of the amateur attempts I saw ended up being another one of these stories, taking place in JAPAN, X highschool, with Y being your average highschool guy protagonist, no reedeming qualities whatsoever, suddenly becoming a mecha pilot and ready to save the world, accompanied by an all-female cast of characters, them being his classmates.

 

Fucking. Please.

 

100% agree! The sooner Japanese tropes are ejected from OELVNs, the sooner progress can be made. I hope that OELVNs will one day become a term that is looked upon highly instead of "Japanese game clone". I hope they are truly written as 'ORIGINAL English Language Visual Novels'. It's really only a matter of time, I think, but it's going to require a few awesome people. 

 

A major turn-off about VNs for most Westerners is the reliance on text-based narration and lack of interactivity.  In Western media, there's games, and there's books, and VNs don't fit well into either category.

 

Another option is VNs with RPG elements.  JRPGs already have a wide following, and they're already used to storytelling being a major feature of the games.  One drawback is that much of the established JRPG playerbase is on consoles, so convincing them to make the platform leap to PCs can be challenging.  VNs with RPG elements are also much more challenging to localize due to the need for graphics editing and meddling with complex game engines.

 

VNs with branching storylines probably also have greater innate appeal to a Western audience.  It's one advantage of the medium that books don't do well and most other games don't bother with, and it can add to the sense of immersion.  Many of Elf's games (e.g., Kawarazaki-ke no Ichizoku 2) do this very effectively, as does School Days.  Choices and branching storylines are a way to incorporate "gameplay" into a VN with no actual gameplay system.

 

I was doing some market research for my VN (a fancy term for "checking out the comments on Steam VNs") and you are precisely right about this lack of interactivity. Many of the comments clearly commented on the desire for greater interactivity. But with great interactivity comes great responsibility. Financial responsibility, of course. 

 

I think that certainly, a JRPG could be one step in the right direction. Just look at the insanely well funded Kickstarter, 'Soul Saga'. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/disastercake/soul-saga-a-j-rpg-inspired-by-playstation-classics 

If you can raise $195k for an ANIME-styled game, trust me, SOME sort of market exists. It's niche but it's not so infinitesimally small as people make it out to be, if you've expanded the net to include anime-lovers in general. 

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Sense of realism is very, very likely not to be what SanadaShadow actually wants to say. We do want VNs, like any other story really, to be able to suspend our disbelief. Stories that are inconsistent or suspisioucly filled with pretty girls that fall in love with you sometimes can't do that.

 

It's like Palas understands me better than I understand me.

 

That SanadaShadow! He's always causing trouble :P

 

We are the community that needs to spread the word.

I think it starts with us. Were fucking pioneers here, we have a responsibility to the West to show everyone what real entertainment is

 

Well, yes. And we are. Unfortunately, we're mostly tailored to the otaku side of VNs, and tend not to understand what I like to call the FPS side of gamers. Sometimes, someone likes both types (myself included, Doom was awesome). But most people tend to stick to whatever side they grew accustomed to (for example, I suck and FPS games, but I really like older games like Castlevania and Megaman X). It doesn't mean I quit one side and joined the other, as I like both equally. It means that many people just can't change after a set period of time and an amount of gained skill on one side. Like my best friend, Alex Ryder [Name adjusted to keep anonymity]. He is extremely skilled at action games like Assassin's Creed and Combat Arms. When he tried a VN, his response was "I don't like how slow-paced it is. When's the gameplay coming up?" On the other hand, I study literature. I enjoy reading. But I also enjoy gaming. I guess... That was why VNs instantly attracted me.

 

As far as "sense of realism" goes, I prefer games with a self-consistent world.  It doesn't have to be "realistic"; it just needs to make sense within the confines of its setting.  Thus I like high fantasy settings with detailed lore that draw you into the world.  I frown upon games that twist and bend rules of the setting in a way that seems contrived--one reason I didn't like No Game No Life as much as others seem to have.

 

Well, yeah. I hate how these games expect a suspension of disbelief beyond my parameters. I like games that show all characters because it shows how I view the world more clearly. I notice the people around me, even if they don't speak with me. I'm a bit paranoid, so I take note of their faces and what they're saying. I tend not to miss snippets of conversation, and it comes to me quite naturally. I want a VN where personality matters more than looks, where cliches are nonexistent, where it feels like real life, despite girls practically throwing themselves at you. To differentiate, Steve would probably pursue the loli character because he likes lolis. I would maybe pursue the loli character, but only if she has a great personality. Otherwise, I'm just a comlpetionist. I tend to shut down my brain and mindlessly read through text when I'm playing an uninteresting route. Mayuri's route, for example, was just lousy to me. I mean, the buildup was great, but I never liked Mayuri, so I found it lousy.

 

I didn't say it, so I apologize for not making it clearer, but I was referring specifically to OELVNs here. Ecchi = no. As soon as that stigma becomes widespread, then making visual novels a mainstream thing is going to be a LOT harder, because you instantly lose social currency for sporting porn. Luckily, those sorts of VNs are at this point relatively unknown. Hopefully, it stays that way. 

 

Well, although you're right with that point, there are some perverts out there who start playing VNs and continue to play solely for the Ecchi. It's sad, but true.

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Well, yes. And we are. Unfortunately, we're mostly tailored to the otaku side of VNs, and tend not to understand what I like to call the FPS side of gamers. Sometimes, someone likes both types (myself included, Doom was awesome). But most people tend to stick to whatever side they grew accustomed to (for example, I suck and FPS games, but I really like older games like Castlevania and Megaman X). It doesn't mean I quit one side and joined the other, as I like both equally. It means that many people just can't change after a set period of time and an amount of gained skill on one side. Like my best friend, Alex Ryder [Name adjusted to keep anonymity]. He is extremely skilled at action games like Assassin's Creed and Combat Arms. When he tried a VN, his response was "I don't like how slow-paced it is. When's the gameplay coming up?" On the other hand, I study literature. I enjoy reading. But I also enjoy gaming. I guess... That was why VNs instantly attracted me.

 

SanadaShadow! You have a new picture! Its kinda weird!

 

Combat Arms... That is a name i haven't heard in quite some time. I was really into that and Soldier Front back in the days of ijji. Those Koreans make the best FPS games.

And everything attracts you SanadaShadow! You're like a moth to a bright light.

 

Along the lines of pacing, I think that most people in the Western world wouldn't be attracted to visual novels. They really are for the people who want a deeper experience, and I dont mean shooting someone. Most of the people I know hop from indie shooter to indie shooter. Some of them have played VNs.

I guess old habits are hard to break

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SanadaShadow! You have a new picture! Its kinda weird!

Combat Arms... That is a name i haven't heard in quite some time. I was really into that and Soldier Front back in the days of ijji. Those Koreans make the best FPS games.

And everything attracts you SanadaShadow! You're like a moth to a bright light.

Along the lines of pacing, I think that most people in the Western world wouldn't be attracted to visual novels. They really are for the people who want a deeper experience, and I don't mean shooting someone. Most of the people I know hop from indie shooter to indie shooter. Some of them have played VNs.

I guess old habits are hard to break

 

Well, for one thing, apparently people were complaining about my avatar being "too distracting to read the posts" so Steve forced me to take it off. Strange thing is, nobody ever said that to my face for some reason.

 

And yeah, there was a time when I was REALLY into Combat Arms. Back when Alex was still here, we used to play for hours together. He was always my best friend, always willing to party when I said so, extremely charismatic, but he absolutely hated reading, studying, anything slow-paced, actually. I guess my personality sort of built around the things he didn't like mixed in with things he did like. Incidentally, have you ever heard of GetAmped 2?

 

Well, not EVERYTHING attracts me. Using your metaphor, hentai is like mothballs to me. I instantly take away AT LEAST one point from a game for being too sexual, unless it connects directly to the story like Cross+Channel. It is true, though, that I have a high tolerance rate for VNs, going as far as to claim against the majority of the community that Muv-Luv is actually very good for a VN.

 

And, well, you're both wrong and right. A huge amount of Westerners are otakus, some of them closet otakus, even. There was a dude in my class back in middle school who was afraid to admit that he liked anime, in fact. It's surprising how quickly people change. A few years back, the bullies saw people playing Minecraft and picked on them because of that, but now it's the bullies that play Minecraft. In the same way, I'm guessing one day a game will come out that will make gamers start to like VNs and convert from ignorance/hatred to a liking of the genre, or at least partial understanding.

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To be honest with you, I don't want VNs to be popular in the West. I like to be unique and know of something amazing that few know about. Besides, western governments would probably censor everything to the core. I'm happy with the way things are right now.

 

There might be bad consequences for VNs popularity in the west, but there could be a ton of lots of advantages. Think about it:

 

First, if not for Katawa Shoujo I would never even have known of this amazing genre of games. I'm 100% sure there are people out there don't know they'll enjoy this form of entertainment. 

Secondly, more popularity means more demand, and more demand means no need to wait years for translations!

And finally, there will be more people making them, I like the japanese style very much but I believe in the west too, if it will gain momentum I think the amount of VNs released will be higher and their diversity will increase which will lead to more amazing and interesting ones appearing. 

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