Visual novels - making them more popular in the west? how?

[SanadaShadow]

Well, what we ACTUALLY want is to play VNs and be able to talk about them with friends, right?

[Clephas]

As a storytelling format, the VN is actually quite a superb medium.  It appeals to hearing and visual aesthetics, in addition to allowing the imagination room for interpretation through the text.  I'm an avid reader of books in general, and I am otaku.  For me, Japanese VNs were something of a miracle, because they addressed my love of the written word, as well as being otakuish to appeal to my love for anime. 

 

I imagine that a lot of people that get into VNs aren't quite conscious of precisely why they like them so much (other than people who love nukige, lol)..  One thing you have to grasp is that we tend to present VNs incorrectly as a medium when trying to make them appeal to westerners.  People who like anime or manga might very well be unable to stand VNs, precisely because they don't like having to read text to the extent a VN requires.  However, someone who is into anime, manga, and light novels is very likely to also be a viable VN fan. 

 

The problem occurs when you are trying to appeal to people outside of those narrow requirements.  To be blunt, all VNs currently made, with a few exceptions, primarily hold appeal to people who are already otakus and only them.  Did any of you start with VNs?  I've yet to meet someone who has.  Even for most of us, VNs are something we got into through something else, not something we started out of the blue from no contact with Japanese culture.

 

If you want to market VNs to non-otakus, you are going to be forced to either turn them into otakus through one of the other options (manga, anime, etc) or take the step of encouraging the making of primarily western-influenced VNs that appeal to western values and culture.  To be blunt, people who become otakus are people who tend to find it easier to accept other cultures' ideas and ways of thinking... or at least be able to enjoy them. 

[Heizei_koukousei]

If you want to market VNs to non-otakus, you are going to be forced to either turn them into otakus through one of the other options (manga, anime, etc) or take the step of encouraging the making of primarily western-influenced VNs that appeal to western values and culture.  To be blunt, people who become otakus are people who tend to find it easier to accept other cultures' ideas and ways of thinking... or at least be able to enjoy them. 

 

I was actually thinking about visual novels that dont have Japanese art style but a more Western cultural view of animation. Hell it could even be live action.

A great deal of people think that all people who like anime/read manga etc. are nutjobs so they shy away from anything of that culture.

Having a Western art style could bridge that gap.

[Scars Unseen]

Oh god, not live action!  You're giving me flashbacks to the mid-90s.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhCUgO_Rjzg

[SanadaShadow]

Tell that to the live-action fans.

[Funyarinpa]

Fuwa helps by raising awareness, however as the population of a community increases, the overall quality might decrease. So, however unlikely it is, take this example: If CoD people grew an attraction to VN's, I do not think that would help to be honest. I'd rather let VN's stay to the few people that have managed to find them by their own means. The problem this creates is that this causes a tiiiiiiiiiiiny Western VN market. But thanks to the translators, that problem is alleviated to some degree. I'd still like VN's to be localized, just not showed to everyone in the public.

[Narcosis]

You're asking whether it's possible to make visual novels more popular on the west? That's not possible and judging from the past, I doubt it will ever change. Visual novel market by definition is condemned to be a niche, thus you can forget about "popularity"; that word simply won't ever fit well to vn's. There's a couple of factors that makes things popular, you'd have to take into considertation: high accessibility, admiration, comprehensibility. Visual novels have none of these; it's a medium targeted at very specific part of our society - mostly intelligent people, those who like to read a lot and those who are either familiar or remain fans of japanese popculture.

 

At the same time, any means to change these factors and make it better, will actually only cause harm to visual novels; it's because if you take away all those important things - the anime-styled graphics, specific vocabulary and form of presentation - they won't be visual novels anymore; thus, sacrificing certain parts of this medium to increase awarness through western consumers is futile, as most of them won't ever become actual consumers in the first place. You should rather ask yourselves what kinds of people could actually become potential consumers; you'll see, that possibilities in this case are really limited and everything is self-contained, just like the japanese market itself.

 

I'd rather say the only thing that would really matter is that the industry should try to grow a bit more before we start to talk about conquering the gaming world; we need actual western developers, producing high quality games. We need games, which aren't simply otaku-pandering crap like Sakura Spirit, but games which revolve around western-themed settings, while retaining the most important factors - the graphics, style, presentation and form. The only way to make more people interested in visual novels would be to make games, which are really close to us, something we could relate to.

 

So far, I've yet to see a single, good western visual novel, including all the aforementioned elements. Western developers often look up to japanese vn's way too much, without any sort of consideration for their own market. This makes western vn's poorly made clones, which will never even partially match the level of decent japanese vn's. they need to make another step and stop the weeaboo-centric pandering. Otherwise western industry will always remain within it's pit of despair.

[SanadaShadow]

So... I should make a VN?

[Narcosis]

Now, now. Whether you want VNs to be "Japanese" or you don't. 

 

VNs won't suddenly stop being VNs without anime-styled illustrations or without "moe", "lolis" or "tsundere". In fact, getting rid of the ingrained VN culture can only improve Western VNs. We need to tell our own stories with our own setting and our own characters - and using the assets we find suitable instead of following conventions we didn't make. Making a broader market for VNs starts with us.

The real question is: would you read a visual novel, which is entirely western-themed, follows western conventions and lacks the appeal of a typical japanese visual novel, including anime-themed graphics? For I would not. There's a couple of exceptions, made by japanese studios (for example, Hotel Dusk or Last Window), which follow themes closer to our western community as well; you can't consider them succesful around here, either. Would they be more popular if made by our developers? A lot of consumers actually reach out for visual novels, cause of their current appeal. It's what makes them interesting for the most of us. I don't want to see western vn's which are adaptations of western books, either. I want to see new, original stories. I hope some people will finally grasp that and find a middle ground to make vn's more succesful on the west.

 

So... I should make a VN?

If you feel strong and skilled enough, I'd say yes. Everyone can try; only few will succeed, but what we currently need is definately more people creating more visual novels.

[Scars Unseen]

The real question is: would you read a visual novel, which is entirely western-themed, follows western conventions and lacks the appeal of a typical japanese visual novel, including anime-themed graphics? 

 

Yes.  It isn't the anime art style or Japanese storytelling idiosyncrasies that make me enjoy visual novels.  I do enjoy those, just as I do in anime and manga, but I can't say that they are the reasons that I enjoy visual novels any more than I can say that they are the reasons I enjoy watching movies or reading books and comics.  Visual novels are a medium, and there is nothing about it the medium's attributes that makes it necessarily Japanese, just like there is nothing that makes video an American medium just because we had the first televisions.

 

Considering that there is a fair amount of variety within the medium, I could see western visual novels taking on everything from light action/dramas like superhero comics to film noir style weird fiction(think Frank Miller meets H.P. Lovecraft) to cyberpunk/body horror mashups.  There is a lot to draw on that would suit the medium, and I would certainly buy into any that were well done.

[Heizei_koukousei]

The real question is: would you read a visual novel, which is entirely western-themed, follows western conventions and lacks the appeal of a typical japanese visual novel, including anime-themed graphics? For I would not. There's a couple of exceptions, made by japanese studios (for example, Hotel Dusk or Last Window), which follow themes closer to our western community as well; you can't consider them succesful around here, either. Would they be more popular if made by our developers? A lot of consumers actually reach out for visual novels, cause of their current appeal. It's what makes them interesting for the most of us. I don't want to see western vn's which are adaptations of western books, either. I want to see new, original stories. I hope some people will finally grasp that and find a middle ground to make vn's more succesful on the west.

 

If new stories were written by Westerners it would bring a new angle to the entire scene. Because our cultures are so different, our ideas flow from different sources. We only like eastern animation because we can understand their ideas. But must Westerners can't, so having the stories written by a different culture may appeal more to that culture. I think it would be interesting to have a large developer make a VN just to see how it plays out. Its straight up business, there is a niche in the market that isnt being filled, and there's no competitors. It would just be a gamble.

I would play a VN that didnt have the appeal of a Japanese VN. Definitely wouldn't enjoy western made VNs as the traditional ones, but i would gladly play them.

 

Also, I will be officially announcing my teams plan to make a VN by the end of July, and depending on how the story plays out, it might be done by the end of September

[Zakamutt]

I personally really like the medium as well as the Japanese twist. I had only seriously watched one anime (kiminozo) on the recommendation of a friend before I tried Katawa Shoujo out (there was lots of controversy and this made me interested.) Conversion followed. I don't really think I was into jp culture much before this, bar having played a handful of JRPGs and the like. In fact, VNs got me into anime (into meaning very occasionally watching), not the other way around.

 

I'm kind of sad to see people reject things that don't have Japanese-style art or plots. I suppose preferences are preferences...

[Narcosis]

Perhaps I expressed myself badly in the previous post; didn't mean everything in general, but graphics. I wasn't condemning western conventions. In fact, that's the road western developers should actually pursue. Meanwhile, art is a matter of personal preferences; I'm not fond of most western artstyles and it would be too much of a factor to let it pass in my case. From my experience, vn's with western artstyles aren't popular either, not to mention I have yet to see such a visual novel with extraordinary art quality. Cinders, which has been one of the very few, high quality visual novels with western-themed art wasn't ever popular at all; in fact, it's sales remain rather poor, which is kind of sad but at the same time shows that there's something wrong with Cinders, which prevented it from gaining bigger attention from the playerbase. Most of Winterwolves' games could be considered of good art quality as well. Does it make them more popular? No.

 

What I'm trying to say, that regardless of the artstyle you chose, it won't actually make a bigger difference in terms of gaining more popularity. A lot of consumers expect vn's to have anime-styled graphics; only very few people state they would play vn's, but do not, because they dislike anime-styled art. There are other, more concerning issues, which prevent western outsiders from reaching inside the world of visual novels; art is the least, if not non-factor one of them.

[crunchytaco]

I'm kind of sad to see people reject things that don't have Japanese-style art or plots. I suppose preferences are preferences...

 

To appeal to Western aesthetics, you'd have to age the characters by at least 10 years in appearances and take it out of a school setting. We're probably used to the high school plot device by now, but that's the weakness that Japanese story tellers can't hurdle over if they want to appeal to a massive Western audience. Anime and manga I understand what audience is being targeted, but I assume people who play VN are mature enough to handle a wider variety of landscapes. I know they won't be able to handle their moege any older though in all seriousness. They'd probably lose a lot of their original fanbase if they moved in this direction.

 

Western taste differs a lot from Eastern. Think Batman and the Walking Dead.

 

I assume there are lot of people here who are from the West but have Eastern tastebuds in mind anyway.

[ExiledSaber]

To appeal to Western aesthetics, you'd have to age the characters by at least 10 years in appearances and take it out of a school setting. We're probably used to the high school plot device by now, but that's the weakness that Japanese story tellers can't hurdle over if they want to appeal to a massive Western audience. Anime and manga I understand what audience is being targeted, but I assume people who play VN are mature enough to handle a wider variety of landscapes. I know they won't be able to handle their moege any older though in all seriousness. They'd probably lose a lot of their original fanbase if they moved in this direction.

 

Western taste differs a lot from Eastern. Think Batman and the Walking Dead.

 

I assume there are lot of people here who are from the West but have Eastern tastebuds in mind anyway.

 

As some that enjoys both the walking dead and high school of the dead in equal messure i would have to say you are spot on. To make it so large numbers of westreners would ever have an intrest would come largely at the loss of the current fan base. However do to the nature and style in which VNs are made i doubt they would ever get a very big following. In other words VNs will all ways be niche i think.

[FoggyOrchid]

Oh god, not live action!  You're giving me flashbacks to the mid-90s.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhCUgO_Rjzg

honestly i'm very fond of FMV's but them being cheesy o hell yeah with that said i want to say thanks everyone for giving their opinion and like i said sorry if this already is topic stay safe everyone o and make sure you all keep posting the more the better

[Funyarinpa]

(...)IceD's post(...)

 

I think your general idea about western VN's is that they too often try to imitate Japanese VN's and fail miserably at that(since the creators are not Japanese), and thus you are doubtful towards many Western VN's. Would you say that is correct?

 

 

By the way, I think that maybe 10 years later, when there are many more Western VN developers, VN's might develop a new sub-genre: Western VN's (WVN for short.). They might have their own tropes, their own general art style, maybe a different understanding of choices and consequences, and different methods of storytelling.

 

Maybe, one day, just like how Westerners both like RPG's and JRPG's, Japanese VN readers will both read VN's and WVN's.

 

(Of course I am not talking about eroge and nukige, West has nothing to beat tentacle rape simulators on that front.)

[Narcosis]

That's the whole issue with the western, so-called "oelvn" (gods, how I hate that term) scene. You're spot on, in other words. Unless creators grow up and make another step, it being getting out of that sandbox of theirs, nothing will ever change. I stated it plenty of times and I will state it once again - stop with the otaku-pandering, weeaboo crap; none of those are healthy to the western scene and it's growing industry. It's fine to make references or play jokes, but constant dependence on bad japanese tropes and aesthetics is detrimental to the western industry. No sane, adult person would ever like, not to mention play any of these games.

 

Perhaps it's because many of the current developers trying to engage in creating western vn's have their roots in the same, exact amateur scene and they are still young and immature; you could call them "vn weeaboos". They don't think about consequences of creating a game - they just want to make a vn, as soon as possible and since they often have little to no actual experience what will they do? Copy the games they adore so much, of course. It's perhaps why most of the amateur attempts I saw ended up being another one of these stories, taking place in JAPAN, X highschool, with Y being your average highschool guy protagonist, no reedeming qualities whatsoever, suddenly becoming a mecha pilot and ready to save the world, accompanied by an all-female cast of characters, them being his classmates.

 

Fucking. Please.

[Funyarinpa]

 

Perhaps it's because many of the current developers trying to engage in creating western vn's have their roots in the same, exact amateur scene and they are still young and immature; you could call them "vn weeaboos". They don't think about consequences of creating a game - they just want to make a vn, as soon as possible and since they often have little to no actual experience what will they do? Copy the games they adore so much, of course. It's perhaps why most of the amateur attempts I saw ended up being another one of these stories, taking place in JAPAN, X highschool, with Y being your average highschool guy, no reedeming qualities whatsoever, suddenly becoming a mecha pilot and ready to save the world, accompanied by an all-female cast of characters, them being his classmates.

 

Fucking. Please.

 

I'd personally thought that not many WVN's (I'll use this term from now on) really did "high school with bland MC" trope, but it seems that is not the case. Well, at least we have somewhat different VN's like Exogenesis or World End Economica. I'll be optimistic and say that this is because the WVN scene is just a fetus at this point in time.(Think of it like this: "Was Super Mario 64's graphics really spectacular?")

 

The first step of learning pretty much anything is imitation.  Let's say you are trying to learn how to play football from scratch. Just by watching a football player you won't become a world-class football player, but then again, watching matches will show you tactics and maneuvers that might help you. Looking at a guitar cover of a song does not mean that you will pick up the guitar and play it easily, but it might show you how to do that one chord you were having problems with. You won't learn Japanese just by watching loli anime, but you might learn how to correctly pronounce a word.

 

So we are in tough times for WVN's, but that is normal.

 

It is not easy for babies to learn how to walk and talk.

[Scars Unseen]

That's the whole issue with the western, so-called "oelvn" (gods, how I hate that term) scene. You're spot on, in other words. Unless creators grow up and make another step, it being getting out of that sandbox of theirs, nothing will ever change. I stated it plenty of times and I will state it once again - stop with the otaku-pandering, weeaboo crap; none of those are healthy to the western scene and it's growing industry. It's fine to make references or play jokes, but constant dependence on bad japanese tropes and aesthetics is detrimental to the western industry. No sane, adult person would ever like, not to mention play any of these games.

 

Perhaps it's because many of the current developers trying to engage in creating western vn's have their roots in the same, exact amateur scene and they are still young and immature; you could call them "vn weeaboos". They don't think about consequences of creating a game - they just want to make a vn, as soon as possible and since they often have little to no actual experience what will they do? Copy the games they adore so much, of course. It's perhaps why most of the amateur attempts I saw ended up being another one of these stories, taking place in JAPAN, X highschool, with Y being your average highschool guy, no reedeming qualities whatsoever, suddenly becoming a mecha pilot and ready to save the world, accompanied by an all-female cast of characters, them being his classmates.

 

Fucking. Please.

 

Yeah, that's kind of a problem of people trying ape cultural references they don't understand.  I've lived in Okinawa for 7 years, was married to a Japanese woman for 5 of them, and I still wouldn't feel comfortable setting a story in Japan or Okinawa without bringing a local on board as a co-writer.  I wouldn't enjoy a VN like that because the number one element that draws me to a VN is the writing, and you can't convincingly write about something you don't understand.  I'll play a VN that has an art style I don't particularly like(Clannad) if the writing itself is good.  The reverse does not hold true.

 

If I was to write a VN, one idea I could go with(among many; ideas I have.  motivation is what I lack) is a sci-fi with multiple story arcs from different character perspectives that made subtle(and not so subtle) jabs at western gaming tropes.  Grizzled space marine lamenting the bland decor of narrow corridors and the like.  

[babiker]

By the way, I think that maybe 10 years later, when there are many more Western VN developers, VN's might develop a new sub-genre: Western VN's (WVN for short.). They might have their own tropes, their own general art style, maybe a different understanding of choices and consequences, and different methods of storytelling.

And maybe they'll have there own website, dedicated to spredding WVN's in Japan

[Guest]

- Creating partnerships with big "otaku" websites. 

 

- Focusing on advertising the anime adaptations : Anagami, Clannad, Kanon, Fate stay night, etc.

 

- Distributing All-ages versions to target a wider audience.

 

- Supporting localizations.

[SanadaShadow]

Well, one trope I've noticed that isn't popular with most of my friends, and myself, is that they're not exactly realistic.

 

And that can be forgiven in some VNs, but when I think of Rewrite, or Cross+Channel, Muv-Luv, Duel Savior, Grisaia, Higurashi, Hoshizora, School Days, Tsukihime, Yandere, Yume Miru Kusuri, and other assorted VNs I haven't yet found the time to put on my VNDB, I think "Where are all the guys? Why am I the only dude in existence?". And although some may or may not have a dude in there, the truth is, it's the games like G-Senjou No Maou and Clannad that have main/semi-main characters that are actually male. And that is one of the reasons why G-SNM is 10/10 in my books. Also why I rate Utawarerumono so highly, because of all its main male characters.

To be honest, Cross+Channel did have a semi-main male character, but... Well, I'd rather not have a spoiler in here.

[FoggyOrchid]

Well, one trope I've noticed that isn't popular with most of my friends, and myself, is that they're not exactly realistic.

 

And that can be forgiven in some VNs, but when I think of Rewrite, or Cross+Channel, Muv-Luv, Duel Savior, Grisaia, Higurashi, Hoshizora, School Days, Tsukihime, Yandere, Yume Miru Kusuri, and other assorted VNs I haven't yet found the time to put on my VNDB, I think "Where are all the guys? Why am I the only dude in existence?". And although some may or may not have a dude in there, the truth is, it's the games like G-Senjou No Maou and Clannad that have main/semi-main characters that are actually male. And that is one of the reasons why G-SNM is 10/10 in my books. Also why I rate Utawarerumono so highly, because of all its main male characters.

To be honest, Cross+Channel did have a semi-main male character, but... Well, I'd rather not have a spoiler in here.

i don't think most people read VNs for realism but that's just my opinion but i do see what you mean about the whole more women then men thing 

[SanadaShadow]

I don't think most people read VNs for realism but that's just my opinion but I do see what you mean about the whole more women then men thing 

 

And that was what I meant. VNs are supposed to be fantasy, but for one thing, why do most VNs focus on only one gender? For another, why is it that only beautiful girls gather around you? If you've got a harem, there should be at least one not-so-hot girl. And if it's a one-girl-only type of thing, there should be at least one charming-but-not-so-hot girl. And I don't mean when in-game characters look at a really good looking girl and say they're ugly. I mean an actual girl who's not so beautiful, but has a better personality than anyone else.