Confusion on the Subject of Radiant Historia

[SanadaShadow]

Alright, so I've been really confused about this for ages now, but does Radiant Historia count as a VN or not? Because I know a bunch of other games that have the same style but are still called VNs, and RH is revolving around its story more than its action. However, it does not appear on VNDB, although I have yet to check any other sites. Can you help me out here? Is it a VN? Why or why not?

[Silvachief]

I write this knowing very little about Radiant Historia, so forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions. My immediate response is that if it's not on VNDB then it's not a visual novel, but different people will have different definitions. The line between game and visual novel is incredibly hazy, and there are certain visual novels (Corpse Party, Aselia the Eternal, 999 etc.) that have significant gameplay components.

 

Radiant Historia is an RPG. A very quick google search makes it seem to me that, although significant, its story component is not the main focus of the game - if anything, it shares the spotlight with the gameplay. A visual novel's gameplay needs to fuel the telling of the story rather than being on even footing, I suppose. Another way of looking at it could be comparing the amount of time you spend running around, fighting things and managing stats to how much time you spend reading (because, in the end, a visual novel is still a novel first and foremost). Of course, i'm just making this up as I go XD

[SanadaShadow]

See, this is what happens when you review a game without actually playing it. If you'd play it, you would see that it's focused more on the story, and while it has RPG gameplay elements, as you said, it's more like other VNs with gameplay elements. It's somewhat of a combination between 999 and Kamidori, from my knowledge of those games. In fact, the only big difference is that you can travel wherever you wish to, in an open world type of gameplay. Nevertheless, it is more story-driven than most, requiring you to go back in time and make different choices and actions to further the story in one point, which changes the main plot in another story line. It has side-quests, but they only add to the ending. You could say that the "true ending" of RH is achieved when you complete all quests and defeat the FOUR FREAKING FINAL BOSSES.

Seriously, this game's boss is a trap waiting to spring. NO healing, NO warning, NO grace period, just a boss after another. And sure, you can count the dudes as two bosses, but with three phases to one of them, it makes more sense to call it four.

Anyways, my point here is that RH is an unrecognized VN with RPG elements.

[Clephas]

You are using the wrong logic to decide whether it is a VN or not.  For one part, it doesn't use the ADV or NVL storytelling methods,and there is no real non-dialog text in the game.  This is a key feature of a VN, that to an extent, the story is defined to a large extent by the non-dialog portions of the text. The way you can go back and forth in time using the flow map is a gameplay feature, not an feature born of a VN.

[SanadaShadow]

What do you mean by non-dialogue? Also, pretty sure it classifies into ADV storytelling. And flow maps were also used in Zero Escape.

[Seath]

A Visual Novel is primarily a literary driven experience based upon narrative and anime visuals, while you can argue that an RPG is story-driven as well the difference is that you have greater input and control in an RPG via elements such as character customization, equipment optimization, and party configuration. While in a Visual Novel you have no direct visual control of the MC and you mostly lack any sort of input involving fighting mechanics entirely.

 

It would almost be more accurate to say that you don't actually play a VN so much as you read a VN. The same however could not be said for an RPG like Radiant Historia. Visual novels are named as such because it lacks a certain amount of player input that would be necessary for it to be classified as a game just as It would be inaccurate to classify something that requires as much continual player input as an RPG does in order for the story to progress a novel.

 

In a matter of genre's games like Radiant Historia contain barely any of the distinguishing characteristics of a Visual Novel short of textbox's and character development. You also won't do too much leveling up while reading a VN.

[SanadaShadow]

Then explain to me why Utawarerumono, Kamidori and so many other unnamed similar VNs are considered such, despite having all the same features. Also, this one has choices (albeit still linear), which is more than I can say about Utawarerumono.

[Seath]

Then explain to me why Utawarerumono, Kamidori and so many other unnamed similar VNs are considered such, despite having all the same features. Also, this one has choices (albeit still linear), which is more than I can say about Utawarerumono.

It has to do with the amount of player interaction you have with the game. If most of the game is spent reading text rather than interacting with the world, or its characters in a way that is visual and controllable by you as the player then those sort of games will be classified as a VN hybrid, but if you spend more time on world and map exploration, character optimization, and fighting mechanics than you do reading dialogue then you are playing an RPG.

[SanadaShadow]

Well then, I'd say this is a VN, since you spend the majority of it with the story.

[Seath]

Well then, I'd say this is a VN, since you spend the majority of it with the story.

Really? Because I have actually played and beaten Radiant Historia, and most of my time was spent in battle grinding for levels, backtracking to complete quests, optimizing my parties equipment, and exploring the map for hidden scrolls.

 

I don't recall the over 40 hours I put into the game as consisting of a majority of my time reading dialogue.

[SanadaShadow]

Well, if you need to grind, then you're not as efficient as I am with the game. At MOST, the first time I played, I got lost and ended up gaining a few levels. Other than that, I believe If I skipped all the side-quests I could get there quite easily. Of course, by the game's end, it's not all that hard to backtrack and do all the sidequests and should take you roughly an hour at most. In any case, I still think that if you use this criteria at the very least Kamidori would not be a VN.

[Seath]

Well, if you need to grind, then you're not as efficient as I am with the game. At MOST, the first time I played, I got lost and ended up gaining a few levels. Other than that, I believe If I skipped all the side-quests I could get there quite easily. Of course, by the game's end, it's not all that hard to backtrack and do all the sidequests and should take you roughly an hour at most. In any case, I still think that if you use this criteria at the very least Kamidori would not be a VN.

I'm not here to compete with you, and no matter how fast you progress through the game it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the game is dominated by battle and map exploration rather than dialogue. It's a very player interaction intrinsic game and unlike a VN you can't press the skip button and step away only to have a large portion of the game complete itself for you.

 

I still think that if you use this criteria at the very least Kamidori would not be a VN.

Perhaps, it may be debatable, but Kamidori isn't the topic of this thread.

 

Also I never said that consisting of mostly dialogue or "story" was the only deciding factor for determining the boundaries between a VN and an RPG. If you want to quote my "criteria" then at least consider everything else I mentioned as well.

[SanadaShadow]

That's after considering what you said. Honestly, I still think that RH can be easily called a VN, and you're basing your argument on a skip button? Really? There are quite a few low-end VNs that don't have any skip button.

[Stray Cat]

As I've seen in the other topic there is a large variety in people definitions of VN.  I can see why some people would classify it since it has many branching plot lines and a fair amount of text.  My opinion would be that anything where you have "boss battles" is more of an RPG than a VN but I can see both. 

[SanadaShadow]

Well, you bring a good point here, but Utawarerumono, Kamidori, Tears To Tiara, and a lot of other VNs that I just can't seem to remember had boss battles everywhere. Utawarerumono had them on most, if not all levels, as did Kamidori. TtT decided to put the bosses in with normal enemies, where you can't really tell that they're bosses unless you scroll over them and notice their special names and higher stats. The first level had a bunch of Captain Knights, the second had an especially powerful Skeleton right at the end, etc.

[Mephisto]

Utawarerumono is a VN because the gameplay components were pretty much pointless and didn't take much time, and a majority of the game was reading the text and dialogue of the story. They were just a small treat after a lot of story sections. 

 

Kamidori is a VN because of the sheer amount of text in the game as well as the braching plot/choices. Also it being a Eushully title likely has something to do with it as well.

 

The Rance series are considered VNs for the same reason, as the sheer amount of text in them basically makes them a VN. (Sengoku is the only one I can think of with which the gameplay actually outweighed the text, but 9 has sooooooooooooooo much fucking text compared to combat....) Since it's a series, they're pretty much all lumped together in to being VNs. 

[Clephas]

What I meant by non-dialog text being a defining feature of VNs, is that event descriptions are generally done through text (and not someone saying 'oh, you just did this' or 'why did you do this and this?').  It isn't a terribly subtle difference... in fact, it is rather obvious.  A pure jrpg tells the story through the dialog and the use of actual sprite actions and in-game movies (Opening movies in VNs don't count). 

 

Example: Say a demon knight is assaulting your people.  In a pure jrpg, his sprite might draw its sword and slash (maybe at the character, maybe at thin air) or you might see a full-action movie before going into the encounter screen.  In a VN, his actions might be described in text, as well as a short animation or a CG with sound effects. 

 

Edit:  VNs are a storytelling method, not a game type, necessarily.  The fact that gameplay is often added to a VN or that sometimes the VN storytelling method is used in a game merely serves to outline this fact.  It becomes a hybrid when the story is told using the VN storytelling method.  A good example that English-speakers can play is Agarest, which utilizes both the ADV text box and the VN storytelling methodology in addition to the traditional jrpg storytelling methods. Frankly, the existence of a textbox and tachie isn't enough, though they are features found in every VN.

[SanadaShadow]

Utawarerumono is a VN because the gameplay components were pretty much pointless and didn't take much time, and a majority of the game was reading the text and dialogue of the story. They were just a small treat after a lot of story sections. 

 

Kamidori is a VN because of the sheer amount of text in the game as well as the braching plot/choices. Also it being a Eushully title likely has something to do with it as well.

 

The Rance series are considered VNs for the same reason, as the sheer amount of text in them basically makes them a VN. (Sengoku is the only one I can think of with which the gameplay actually outweighed the text, but 9 has sooooooooooooooo much fucking text compared to combat....) Since it's a series, they're pretty much all lumped together in to being VNs. 

 

Utawarerumono's gameplay was actually a huge part of the game, considering that without winning the battle you could not move on with the story. They were nice, though.

 

Kamidori may have three different endings, but RH isn't too far off either. It had one linear ending, but a bunch of other endings added on for completing the game in certain ways.

 

Sengoku Rance... I've never played it, I heard it was just full of H-scenes.

 

What I meant by non-dialog text being a defining feature of VNs, is that event descriptions are generally done through text (and not someone saying 'oh, you just did this' or 'why did you do this and this?').  It isn't a terribly subtle difference... in fact, it is rather obvious.  A pure jrpg tells the story through the dialog and the use of actual sprite actions and in-game movies (Opening movies in VNs don't count). 

 

Example: Say a demon knight is assaulting your people.  In a pure jrpg, his sprite might draw its sword and slash (maybe at the character, maybe at thin air) or you might see a full-action movie before going into the encounter screen.  In a VN, his actions might be described in text, as well as a short animation or a CG with sound effects. 

 

Well, you're right there, but wouldn't it be an improvement if VNs had this kind of storytelling? For one thing, I think that this is a weak argument, although valid. It seems like they bent the rules enough with other games but decided to be strict just at RH. Also, RH doesn't have any full-action movies, its events are dictated with map elements. However, Kamidori might fall in with this category too, depending on how you look at it.

[Clephas]

Flowmaps exist in some older VNs and mystery VNs.  This: http://vndb.org/v10001 for instance.  However, it is simply a mechanism to progress the story that can't quite be called gameplay.  Also, in some cases, such as Tasogare no Sinsemillia, it is simply an alternative method to place-keeping saves to progress the story without wasting time skipping through already-read text. 

 

Also, Kamidori has event description in text, as do all Eushully games.  So does Utawarerumono and TtT.  Basically, if you are looking for something that defines VNs vs regular games... that's the one huge absolute.  Narration takes precedence in storytelling over actual actions outside the text box. 

 

Another example of a game which had VN elements inserted, albeit as a sort of 'side-game' was Lost Odyssey's 'Thousand Years of Dreams' which told you about the protagonist's past in NVL form with a simple background and music. 

[SanadaShadow]

Your post now convinces me beyond doubt that RH should have been a VN but everyone was just a bit too hard on it.

[Clephas]

Dialog isn't narration.  *Clephas sighs*

[SanadaShadow]

That isn't what I was talking about.