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Request: Removal of Grisaia and Planetarian Torrents


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No, you cussed. Cussing isnt allowed. Thats all. 

 

Straight from your second post in this thread:

 

 

And this is why I despise the Fuwanovel staff. It is now supporting a fucking terrible culture of piracy.

 

You're right, the mods hate cussing.

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Nice of the mods to delete my comment. How does it feel to be presented with the truth?

 

No, you cussed. Cussing isnt allowed. Thats all. 

 

 

He did? :o

What a naughty naughty boy.

Please keep the discussion on topic ( Even though the thread got so off-topic you can't even see it.)

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I-- I've been completely blown away by this discussion.

 

I have my views on piracy and I have my views on Fuwanovel's policies. But I don't think it's appropriate for a newbie such as me to speak right now. Instead, I have a few questions.

 

First - and the one I feel I shouldn't be asking - who was Aaeru? I did some quick research, but couldn't find the information I wanted, namely why I don't see her here as an admin and member of the forums.

 

Second, does Fuwanovel understand and acknowledge its importance in terms of visual novel critique? In fan translating visual novels, you don't only create an opportunity for people to experience them - you create a canon. Only a select few VNs were translated - why? That who starts reading visual novels today already knows of Clannad, Steins;Gate, Muv-Luv, Ever17, Fate/Stay Night - most likely due to Fuwanovel's work. By creating a visual novel canon of sorts, Fuwanovel has created itself a direction it may follow.

 

Third, does Fuwanovel intend on creating bonds with the OELVN scene? Seems unrelated to the topic at hand, but it matters to me so I can understand the site, its policies and philosophies better.

Any new member can speak, and the importance of his words will be the same as everyone else's. We try to let the best ideas rule- if we enter an argument and you're more coherent about how things should go, we'll do it your way, even though I'm a mod.

 

Aaeru is the creator of fuwanovel- even today, she's still an admin in our list, even though she's not active anymore. Just click the "moderating team" button and you'll see it.

 

We're not that important in the VN scene- we aren't the only site nor the biggest one. Though we try to be different by being friendly at all times (a lot of what happened in this thread is an example of how that can fail sometimes, though)

 

Also, we're really off-topic here. This thread is important, but if we don't return to the discussion somewhat soon, I'm thinking of locking it. Mostly because I believe all arguments have already been said.

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Nobody's comment was deleted for swearing. I'm not in a position to look up what happened to the comment, but I didn't delete it, and I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't taken down for swearing. Batman is just playing with you or is grumpy about getting a slap on the wrist for swearing in a different post, CMGarcia. 

 

CMGarcia was pointing out that we often sound culty when we talk about Aaeru. I chuckled when I read that. That can certainly be true. I tried to point that out in my post above. Being able to laugh at our quirks and eccentricities is healthy for any community, and I think that most of us do a good job of it here. The second part of your post, about Aaeru's character, I disagree with, and since it was an attack on a person's character (not kosher) and irrelevant to the discussion at hand, the comment was (more likely than not) removed.

 

Palas -- those are pretty high-level questions. They've been discussed at length (especially in the Fuwanovel Improvements forum) (see my walls of text there for some answers). If you can't find the answers there, I'd be happy to talk to you about them in a different thread.

 

 

 

Alright. Let's move back on topic, please. Discussion is welcomed, regardless of how new/old you are in the community.

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Well I well say my opinion thou I am sure it has been said by someone with a different username before and I can't really read all the posts.

Anyways I generally agree with Steve.

 

Fuwanovel is made to make VNs more famous in the west. Yet I have to say that you should consider how fuwanovel is not used only by the west. I don't think we should discuss piracy about this because in my point of view , with piracy companies don't really lose money, it is not like "NO ONE BUYS THE OFFICIAL RELEASE BECAUSE THERE'S A FREE VERSION ONLINE". If that was the case, then all companies making games would have stopped making games long ago. When companies close, it is for other reasons. For example, some anime dubbing companies are closing not because dub versions are online but because of the hate on dub, in other words, most of the people I know who buy blu-ray dvds in North America buy the subbed versions not the dubbed so things like that affect sales not the piracy. For example does crunchyroll and funimation affect the sales of blu-ray subbed DVDs of anime? I don't really think so. Forget that , don't reply to me about that because that's not important at all.

 

Enough discussing piracy because piracy isn't important, people who download VNs for free and don't want to support localization will still do it and just look for the translated version somewhere on the internet other than easy access in fuwanovel.  Now for this topic at hand, personally removing these torrents for piracy sounds idiotic. The only logical reason to remove it is to respect TLWiki. As to what I see, fuwanovel should keep the torrents there especially because these VNs are usually recommended to VN newbies (like me) so they will be useful for achieving fuwanovel's goal: spreading VNs.

 

So as simple as that, since keeping the torrents up support fuwanovel's goal, fuwanovel should keep the torrents up and shouldn't take them down.

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In this sense, I don't think taking down Grisaia's torrent would do so much good. We would indeed be losing something - the H-scenes, namely. I'm not a huge fan of H, but hey, some do like it and think the Grisaia experience is incomplete without them.

I don't think the pro-localization side would complain if Fuwanovel hosted the patch only.  A C&D would also be unlikely.

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I don't think the pro-localization side would complain if Fuwanovel hosted the patch only.  A C&D would also be unlikely.

Actually, if SP would like to give a fuck, they can take the patch down as well. There's been plenty of examples in the past where C&D's were given left and right, even despite the fan translators didn't actually host anything on their websites, nor supported piracy by offering torrents of games they made fan TL's for. A self-published fan translation is already an act of violation against copyright in terms of localized games. It's because no one else can simply have the right to offer any sort of localization, other than it's actual owners, unless otherwise stated; more over, when they are profiting from it, be it even from adds placed on their website.

 

On the other hand, Fuwanovel does not have to physically remove the patches, nor torrents at all. As long as you won't simply hand out the links on the front pages and avoid massive hyperlinking (you can host through XDCC, or store the link DB's in depos), there's no way to even legally prove that Fuwanovel violated anything.

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I came to this topic a bit late, but it has been an interesting read. (many walls of text though :P )  I admit I had mixed feeling when I first saw the Grisaia localization announcement.  On one hand I'm glad the game is getting more exposure in the west, on the other I think the h-scenes in Grisaia were some of the best in any VN I read(probably some of the only ones I actualy liked reading), and I'm one of those crazy fans who imported the game so it miffed me a bit to lose access to the patch.(Well technicaly I still have it on my PC so no biggie.  I also understand that most people who would download the patch would just look for a downloadable copy.)  As for Planetarian well I'm just happy all the way.

 

Anyway, I digress, the main thing I wanted to say is that I also think what Mayumi suggested is the best compromise for both parties.  If there is ever a restoration patch for Grisaia like KonoSora's I think it should go on the main site though.

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All I really want to add is that I'd be more supportive of this Idea, if it was entirely the same game. The one that will be on steam will have all the H-scenes removed. Now this isn't an argument for h-scenes or no h-scenes and stuff. I just find it important to the plot in one of the routes. I think them taking them out actually damages the original story somewhat, and I'd rather be able to still download the full game here, as it was made, without anything cut.

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Damn. this thread is too hard to stomach.
I see people started to make some weird arguments about alleges vs. 18+

 

Fuwa is a pirating website. If you don't agree with that - you're blind, If you don't like that - you probably came to the wrong place.

There are more things that Fuwa aimed to do, more than general pirating sites. But none of this would be possible without being a pirating website.

 

The question about removing or keeping is simple. Everything should be kept as long as it is related to the subject (visual novels) and does not produces a direct threat for the website (in other words can't result in a shutdown)
Posting a direct link to some official release on the main website page is of course may be too risky (knowing that website server is located in US). But taking down some torrents or other means of downloads (like links to some rapidshare-like stuff, if they exist) doesn't makes sense.

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Right now it doesn't matter anymore. If it would be me, I wouldn't even ask community; I'd go along with the policy and remove direct link downloads for licensed vn's and properly update their respective repo pages, but keep the torrents and create a batch file with all the links available, so those who would be interested could still access them.

 

As long as you keep that stuff hidden and out of sight from the general public, the likelyhood of getting a C&D or other crap goes down to nearly zero. In most cases, the costs and time required to fight piracy outweighs any possible gains, so unless you're handing out torrent links left and right on the front page of your website, there's a very little chance anyone will become interested to try and shut you down.

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Like some people have been saying i'd accept whatever the staff says, They will decide what's best for the site rather than forcing their personal feelings about piracy into site policy. 

 

Tay got us this far, I don't think he will let us down now no matter what he chooses, i'm sure it will be what he thinks is  best for the site and community :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am still of the mind that you should remove them, the localizations were announced it should be left at that. TLwiki ( the actual people working on both translation and localization) is well aware of this site and since they work with Sekai Project its only a matter of time before you guys get a C&D over it.

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I'm talking to any one concerned about piracy, sales models, and how things "should be". Particularly:

2. Piracy vs Sharing

The whole word "Piracy" is just wrongly used since the beginning of the internet.
If you imagine piracy in a pirate movie, they invade a ship and deprive people off their possessions.
But in the case of games, movies, music - that is never the case. "Piracy" on the internet just stands for "Sharing", but people for some reason needed a word that sounds evil.
Instead of taking away possessions of someone else, you are being offered a shared copy of what someone already has. You are being offered a flower seed out of unlimited supply to grow your own flower and ultimately build your love for flowers to the point you want to support the people who originally imported these flowers from different parts of the world.
.... (omitted)

I think there's a coherent, consistence stance that would lead into this sort of essay being written, but think what's written here is disjointed rhetoric, filled with anecdotal evidence.

 

Let me define two models for selling products:

Conventional Model:

I make hats, and sell them.

I make VN's, and sell them online. 

I perform and host a concert and sell tickets to it.

 

Gratitude Model: Free version (through piracy or public release) are always available, people who want to support the game buy it.

I play music in the streets and people who enjoy it pay me money.

 

Now, the main difference between the two is that VN's are software, which are copyable.

 

Now what I'm saying is I don't necessarily agree with is "just because of that fact that copying a product is technologically possible and economically feasible, the maker should lose the ability to sell them conventionally, and that they should absolutely switch to the gratitude model":

 

----

As a premise, I believe sellers should be able to include conditions in their sales of physical or digital objects (you can think of a contract as a more generalized thing, which includes all sales), and if that contract is, "thou shall not copy or share this product with anyone", then they should be allowed to.

 

Let's say you bought a game which came with the conditions "you cannot resell or share this game". Let's say you were a typical person and shared the game with your friends anyways, after you were finished playing with it. The discrepancy here isn't the maker putting "you cannot resell of share this game" in the conditions, it's the fact that the maker lacks the means to enforce this contract.

 

So if a purchaser uploads the a game, then they are breaking their contract they made bought the game. The person who downloads this game, well, technically they aren't bound by any contracts to the maker, so they aren't "breaking" anything per se. (I'm going to ignore any national laws for now, since god I have no clue)

 

The conclusion I draw is that for people who torrent, there is a conflict here between:

(I want the game but don't have the money, don't want to prioritize the money, don't want to spend the money) aka. Pragmatic reasons  versus Respecting the maker's (of a product that can be copied effortlessly) ability to sell the game using the conventional model.

 

Obviously if you think that a maker shouldn't be able to sell a copyable product using the conventional model, then there's no contest at all.

Edit:  Honestly, after working out this post, I think I understand a part of Aaeru's stance. Precisely because something is copyable, as to benefit the most amount of people possible, it should be shared. So she (they) reject the conventional model. She also says that it's reasonably possible to change what you sell into something that isn't pirate-able. Whereas other people point out that it's not so simple to change what you sell into something non-pirateable, for example, if you develop vn's digitally.

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  • 5 weeks later...

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