Jump to content

Request: Removal of Grisaia and Planetarian Torrents


Recommended Posts

That's the thing, Sekai owns translation rights for a game, but they don't own "the" Fan translation released years ago - fans own that translation

No, fans don't own the translation.  They're pirating it.  You may not agree with copyright law, but you should fess up that you're willfully breaking it for <insert reason here>.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I quoted you, it's nothing personnal and I'm sorry if it seemed like it was.

 

I just want to end this stupid side discussion about piracy and sales and make people understand that there is no way it can have a good effect.

 

Hopefully people will understand after that. Once again I'm terribly sorry, I just quoted the two last post saying something about it.

I won't say anything on the subject anymore, it has irritated me more than it should have done and I appologize for it.

No hate <3

 

I wasn't even feeling like posting in this thread after my first post stating my opinion on this VN in particular but now it escalated to something bigger and then it started discussing something pointless and I felt the need to point it out as part of the staff. Maybe I shouldn't have. But I'm leaving it here for now too.

 

In fact I feel like locking this thread because it's not achieving anything at this point.

It's kind of like 2 bandwagons trying to bring in more people and then see who's bandwagon can overpower the other. 

 

 

That's the thing, Sekai owns translation rights for a game, but they don't own "the" Fan translation released years ago - fans own that translation, free people that were gifted this translation own it now.

If you gifted something to someone (out of again unlimited supply), you don't then come and collect it from everyone.

And even if you improve (or "censor") your work and decide to sell it later, it is no longer the same thing.

 

We were gifted the fan translation and allowed to share it for free with the rest of the world - we are not talking about the new version (whether improved or not), we are talking about the gift we and the all Visual Novel fandom received years ago for Planetarian and a year ago or so for Grisaia.

 

And that is the version we should retain on fuwanovel as that is the one that was gifted to the world. That is the one that helped the fandom of the games to grow and we should support that movement going forward.

 

By this logic you could also bring back Steins;Gate's torrent as the same criteria would apply. But we removed it didn't we?

You can't deny that we no longer hold any right to host this patch Steve. Not with our current policy.

 

Sure sharing it with everyone and making everyone happy sounds awesome and all, wouldn't everyone want to live in such a world? I sure would. But it is not our policy no matter how hard you try to make it fit within it because you love the games and as such this torrent should be removed just like any other that gets licensed just like we did with Steins;Gate. You're being biased here.

 

If you want to support hosting this licensed VN, then you must be supporting hosting all licensed VNs, you can't be biased just because it's these 2. If this is really your wish then you should be discussing it with Tay and not posting in this thread because, like I said, at the end of the day it's all about what Fuwanovel wants to set as its policy and who sets Fuwanovel's policy are the staff and I believe Tay, as a founding member, since Aaeru is no longer with us, is the one who you should be directing these arguments to.

Then again Tay will likely read all these so it's whatever you wish to do about it.

 

But continuing discussing piracy here is needless at this point.

 

 

Well I already called out something I thought was important to call out so I'm ending my posting here because this gives me headaches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, fans don't own the translation.  They're pirating it.  You may not agree with copyright law, but you should fess up that you're willfully breaking it for <insert reason here>.

 

That's not true, fans a pirating the Japanese game but the fan translation was given to them.

 

And even if it is no longer available, the fact that it was given to us cannot be taken away, unless they go back in time and don't release it as fan translation in the first place.

 

 

By this logic you could also bring back Steins;Gate's torrent as the same criteria would apply. But we removed it didn't we?

You can't deny that we no longer hold any right to host this patch Steve. Not with our current policy.

 

No, if the circumstances were different back then I would have fought just like I do now. I have explained why I accepted that S;G compromise in the staff section and I do not feel like sharing that reason here (out of respect for the people involved). If the situation wasn't like that, I would not have allowed removal of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not true, fans a pirating the Japanese game but the fan translation was given to them.

That's not how copyright law works.  A fan translation is an unauthorized derivative work.  That's why it can be C&D'd.  It doesn't matter whether it's released as a patch or pre-patched into the game.  Distribution of unauthorized fan translations is piracy.  See my first post for reasons why this can be considered permissible (although still illegal).

 

A localized release is licensed and legal.  An unauthorized fan translation is not.  This isn't debatable.  This is fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Instead of adding another brick to this already massive wall of text, I'll just keep this short and simple. What is happening here is a conflict between opposing ideologies. One side is not likely to agree with the other, nor is one side likely to convince the other to change their views. This particular argument is one that can go on for ages with no end in sight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tons of people already own the free fan translation which guarantees re-upload to other sites, and it's already on other sites anyways, they should have thought before translating something wayy late, that has already been translated. 

 

Mine as well make sure people come to Fuwa to get their illegal translation rather than competitor sites where they will get it for free anyways. I bet there wouldn't be a significant amount of people who didn't download it because we removed it and it would more or less take traffic away from Fuwanovel :P

 

To me at the very least most companies that translate seem pretty greedy and don't do a very good job. Personally I won't buy a copy of anything until they give us something quality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding FanTL rights, I don't think I ever saw any kind of license on TLWiki or statement that could work as license, so no, technically they neither did "give" it to anyone, nor allowed to use it or keep it or redistribute it. Copyright requires explicit statements about any kind of transfer of rights.

If people insist on bringing up this piracy crap, I'll just leave this here. 

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/12/economics-of-piracy/

This research doesn't apply to undeveloped small-scale markets like translated VNs. Moreover music itself is entirely different business, with entirely different model of money flow.

Piracy is doing very severe damage to VN sales, as known on example of MG releases. Once game is uploaded you-know-where, sales plunge to 0. If its not uploaded for several days, all that time sales keep high. So yes, people will buy VNs if no other options are available, and will pirate if pirating is possible, because of how this particular market is structured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You say that reading a VN is not required to live - I would rather say that reading a VN is not required to survive. But life is not about surviving, life is about living and the point of living is to live, not to survive.

You can be locked away, receive all the food and water that you need to survive, but would that really be a life? Many people live like that from day to day, just surviving in the world, hoping that one day it can change.

And VNs are a great way to make your life alive, they offer you information to absorb, they offer you emotions like love and passion, but even happiness and resolution after a sad moment, they can offer you closure to a story you can experience for yourself, a closure missing from your life of constant never ending survival.

And just like information, emotions are also required to live. You can survive without all of those but there is a reason human brain gets bored and that boredom can be so painful at times - at that point you are starving for those things, for information, for emotions. And even though you will not die, would life without those thins still be life?

I myself cannot imagine, because I was lucky enough to find all those things through the internet, where there isn't a limited number of those things and that's why everyone should get knowledge, everyone should get a book or VN to read and experience emotions. Everyone should also get a way to express their emotions and their thoughts, without being limited by government or whoever in their expression.

 

Steve, you are not entitled to the things that give your life meaning. Sometimes you can obtain meaning through work or money or something else, but you are not entitled to them. Period.

 

And the luxury isn't the fact that you are able get a copy, the luxury is the feeling you were able to support developer you like and that you might help them make more games.

You cannot compare anything like this to physical goods, because in this case there is an unlimited supply and so everyone can have it. There already is enough stuff in the world that some people will NEVER be able to afford in their life, whether it is a car, expensive food, visiting certain locations, or even proper health care.

That's because there is limited supply of cars and so the more privileged people offer more money to take them first, there is limited supply of food, limited space in transport vehicles and hotels, limited amount of doctors able to provide health care. So people with more privileges can have more of those things already.

But when there is an unlimited supply where everyone is able to download a game and read it. It is not only for the privileged enough to afford it, it is for everyone.

 

It is NOT for you to say who these goods are for. Furthermore, these packages cost millions of dollars to make, you won't get these products unless you fund not only the cost it takes to make the game, but more than likely the time that's spent putting them together. Any other option will decrease the number of VNs being released or decrease the quality in each title.

 

Lastly, piracy of games, movies, music and books has been here since the possibility of unlimited supply came - yet all those industries still work and shine. That is because piracy has no influence on the future of an industry, if the product is good, people will reward you - if money is what you want people will reward you with money. Because what else do people spend their spare money on - sure often times things they don't need, but most often things they like and enjoy.

 

You have zero knowledge of the book industry, then. Mid-list authors are becoming extinct, half because of publishing practices, and half because people don't buy the books. In the 80s mid-list authors were thriving, today they're dying out.The book industry has many problems and is a long way away from 'shining'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey everybody,

 

Almost 90 posts! If you feel like this discussion has been going round-and-round in circles, then you should be glad you weren't party to the 2012 and 2013 discussions -- the first back-and-forth we had on Fuwanovel about hosting localized games had >200 replies and, if I remember right, was deleted. I still have minor PTSD thinking about it.

 

Let's all take a step back and look at this thread for a minute. We'll notice that there are many well-thought-out and well-presented arguments on both sides. We'll also notice that almost nobody has been swayed from one side to the other. Please allow me to state the obvious: This is a point of disagreement, and the two arguments aren't going to be reconciled no matter how long we go on. 

 

I tend to see this as a good thing: it means that I don't need to get emotional about the debate, and I don't need to take it personally on any level. I suggest everybody deescalate emotionally from the conflict.

 

 

 

 

Let's start with Aaeru.

People like to channel Aaeru (especially in this argument) because many remember and think of her as a sort of ancient, canonized, ultimate authority. I was around and an admin when the Fuwanovel policies were being decided, and Aaeru and I talked several times about this issue.

 

On the one hand Aaeru was(/is) an extreme pirate: she hated copyright, hated the idea of intellectual property, and wanted to put all VNs up for pirating. She was a pirate through-and-through -- to the point of once sharing with me some Australian Pirate Party propaganda ^_^ .

 

Yet, on the other hand, as Fuwanovel administrators she and I spoke about this issue more than once, and every time we came to the agreement that it's in Fuwanovel's best interest not to host licensed games. Aaeru wavered from time to time, but the policy was solidified and codified when Aaeru's DC III project was crushed by Gangamamer. Some of you remember that happening. Aaeru was crushed and it took several weeks for her to recover. I remember the long conversation she and I had during the weeks she was away from the site, recovering.

 

Anybody who knew Aaeru knew that she was a pirate to her core. Those that served with her as staff (we still have a few of them around), including myself (a co-admin), however know that she recognized and codified our current policy. Fuwanovel doesn't host licensed games. We generally drop the games within a few months of their announcement -- so long as progress on the translation is being made. 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I'm going to try and cut to the heart of the matter

This specific topic has shown that it really doesn't matter how many good reasons we put down on paper for either side. Good arguments aren't going to persuade the other side off the wall. Time and time again this issue has put a real and painful strain on the community. I'm sad to say that I've lost multiple staff members to this issue -- many have resigned over it, and it kills me to say that some are threatening to leave over it again.

 

This topic has repeatedly caused distress to the community. That is why we have a policy -- to prevent confusion for members and staff alike; and to give clear direction as new situations arise. That's the reason why we make them. One of my roles is to make sure we aren't forgetting about the foundations of the site, and ensure that we stay true to them. Fuwanovel's policy is that we don't host licensed games on the site.

 

 

 

 

 

Brass Tacks

I've been discussing the actual logistics of this issue with the staff and we're currently discussing how to proceed. If the decision is to abide by our longstanding policy, then I want to assure the community that the torrents are not going to disappear overnight. There will be notice about the plan and clear communication. 

 

I've read this entire thread twice, and I've spent a lot of time ensuring that I understand points raised both here and in the staff forums. I want to assure everybody that your voices are heard, and the staff and I will value further points raised here.

 

At some point a decision must be made, however, and experience has taught me that there will be anger and hurt feelings regardless of what's chosen. I urge everybody to remember that we're all here for the love of a hobby, and that Fuwanovel's core is a respectful and friendly place to celebrate visual novels. This decision isn't the end of the world, and won't substantially change your Fuwanovel experience. I encourage everybody -- myself included -- to watch yourselves and your discourse and make sure we aren't being explosively hyperbolic in the aftermath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve, you are not entitled to the things that give your life meaning. Sometimes you can obtain meaning through work or money or something else, but you are not entitled to them. Period.

 

Yes, through work or money or something else.

That's exactly what what people on fuwa offer, those who can offer money do so, those who can only offer their work or "something else" do so too. Yet a licensed release doesn't accept anything other than money and that is why we need and rely on fan translation.

We are a different ecosystem than steam or whatever platform they are going to sell their official release on, we allow people to trade what they can offer, because money is not equally rewarded to people in the world and as such you cannot use it as a global currency and be fair to everyone.

 

But this discussion is really going in circles, fuwanovel has always been a warez website with fan translation patches applied to the downloaded japanese version of the game. Some compromises had to be made in the past due to legal issues, but with a stronger infrastructure we have a better chance of avoiding those.

This case is no different, it is a fan TL applied to JP release - just like everything else on the website.

 

I'm really tired of this whole thing :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Tay for clarifying all the details regarding how the policy was created and shining some light on this thread.

I think there's no need to make any more arguments here after this and going around in circles anymore.

It's more of a matter of wether people accept the policy or not, particularly among the staff since that's where a lot of the issues and differences started to begin with.

 

Though more on this is to be discussed in the staff forums, so I'm ending my posting here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nao--er, um--Mayumi ;)

 

That's part of the brass tacks exploration I was referring to -- we're still working out all the options for how to handle it. The torrents aren't going to be dropped overnight and, in fact, regardless of what happens on the main site, it's unlikely they'll be removed from the seedbox (since Fuwanovel doesn't own/run it!). All we're talking about here is what the game page on the main site will look like (meaning whether or not there's a torrent link, or a link to the licensed publisher, etc.). There are lots of great options, including those you suggested. 

 

Thus why I keep stressing that nobody should be talking as if this is the end of the world. We'll have a workable solution. : )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nao--er, um--Mayumi ;)

 

That's part of the brass tacks exploration I was referring to -- we're still working out all the options for how to handle it. The torrents aren't going to be dropped overnight and, in fact, regardless of what happens on the main site, it's unlikely they'll be removed from the seedbox (since Fuwanovel doesn't own/run it!). All we're talking about here is what the game page on the main site will look like (meaning whether or not there's a torrent link, or a link to the licensed publisher, etc.). There are lots of great options, including those you suggested. 

 

Thus why I keep stressing that nobody should be talking as if this is the end of the world. We'll have a workable solution. : )

Have you ever considered a job in bomb defusal? Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to see you Naomi-san :3

 

For the record, Rooke agrees with everything Naomi said :)

So it's not Sakuma drop? I do agree that Naomi's compromise seems like the best solution offered so far. I think a neutral stance on this is for the best, especially if it ends this debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, you cussed. Cussing isnt allowed. Thats all. 

 

Straight from your second post in this thread:

 

 

And this is why I despise the Fuwanovel staff. It is now supporting a fucking terrible culture of piracy.

 

You're right, the mods hate cussing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Nice of the mods to delete my comment. How does it feel to be presented with the truth?

 

No, you cussed. Cussing isnt allowed. Thats all. 

 

 

He did? :o

What a naughty naughty boy.

Please keep the discussion on topic ( Even though the thread got so off-topic you can't even see it.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I-- I've been completely blown away by this discussion.

 

I have my views on piracy and I have my views on Fuwanovel's policies. But I don't think it's appropriate for a newbie such as me to speak right now. Instead, I have a few questions.

 

First - and the one I feel I shouldn't be asking - who was Aaeru? I did some quick research, but couldn't find the information I wanted, namely why I don't see her here as an admin and member of the forums.

 

Second, does Fuwanovel understand and acknowledge its importance in terms of visual novel critique? In fan translating visual novels, you don't only create an opportunity for people to experience them - you create a canon. Only a select few VNs were translated - why? That who starts reading visual novels today already knows of Clannad, Steins;Gate, Muv-Luv, Ever17, Fate/Stay Night - most likely due to Fuwanovel's work. By creating a visual novel canon of sorts, Fuwanovel has created itself a direction it may follow.

 

Third, does Fuwanovel intend on creating bonds with the OELVN scene? Seems unrelated to the topic at hand, but it matters to me so I can understand the site, its policies and philosophies better.

Any new member can speak, and the importance of his words will be the same as everyone else's. We try to let the best ideas rule- if we enter an argument and you're more coherent about how things should go, we'll do it your way, even though I'm a mod.

 

Aaeru is the creator of fuwanovel- even today, she's still an admin in our list, even though she's not active anymore. Just click the "moderating team" button and you'll see it.

 

We're not that important in the VN scene- we aren't the only site nor the biggest one. Though we try to be different by being friendly at all times (a lot of what happened in this thread is an example of how that can fail sometimes, though)

 

Also, we're really off-topic here. This thread is important, but if we don't return to the discussion somewhat soon, I'm thinking of locking it. Mostly because I believe all arguments have already been said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nobody's comment was deleted for swearing. I'm not in a position to look up what happened to the comment, but I didn't delete it, and I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't taken down for swearing. Batman is just playing with you or is grumpy about getting a slap on the wrist for swearing in a different post, CMGarcia. 

 

CMGarcia was pointing out that we often sound culty when we talk about Aaeru. I chuckled when I read that. That can certainly be true. I tried to point that out in my post above. Being able to laugh at our quirks and eccentricities is healthy for any community, and I think that most of us do a good job of it here. The second part of your post, about Aaeru's character, I disagree with, and since it was an attack on a person's character (not kosher) and irrelevant to the discussion at hand, the comment was (more likely than not) removed.

 

Palas -- those are pretty high-level questions. They've been discussed at length (especially in the Fuwanovel Improvements forum) (see my walls of text there for some answers). If you can't find the answers there, I'd be happy to talk to you about them in a different thread.

 

 

 

Alright. Let's move back on topic, please. Discussion is welcomed, regardless of how new/old you are in the community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...