Request: Removal of Grisaia and Planetarian Torrents

[Aniki]

This is a pirating website.  You are pirates.  That's what you do: walk the grey line to accomplish what you think is right.  If you don't like it, then Fuwanovel isn't for you. 

- Mayumi 20:14

True enough. Fuwanovel is and has always been a site to pirate visual novels. Almost all of the visual novels present on the site were illegally distributed, anyway. The Japanese had to pay for them.

[MellowMadman11]

I actively support the VN industry by buying what gets localized as much as I can, and i'll continue to do so (and soon japanese language VN's as well) regardless of what happens with Fuwa. 

 

That being said, i'm in agreement with those who believe Fuwa should keep those two torrents. When I first joined Fuwa, I was new to VN's and like most of you probably were, I was looking for a site where I could find more of them to enjoy. As someone who is pretty behind the curve when it comes to technology, I had never used a torrent or anything like that before so it was a new experience for me. I wasn't really sure about all of this, then I read some statements written by Aaeru on the subject of copyright and all of that and I have to say I agree with a great majority of her statements on the subject.

 

I likened it to my own beliefs as an artist. As some of you probably know by now, i'm a huge supporter of anything that can be called art. I also do some work myself and while i've been away from all of it for a while, i'm slowly getting back into it. I have had quite a few talks with some fellow artists as well as others who just enjoy art and one thing I often get asked is if I would like to make a living creating art. My answer is always that the though has never crossed my mind. I would gladly make a living teaching it, but not selling it. I believe art is at it's best when it is made for the sake of art itself and nothing else. I plan to become a teacher down the road, and if I do teach art I will try my best to convey this idea to my students.

 

That being said, i'm not one to support forcing anyone to agree to anything, I think it's wonderful that there are so many people with differing opinions and perspectives in this world. It would be a shame if there weren't, as I find it makes life more interesting.

 

But those are just my thoughts on the issue, I will continue to support VN's and art in general regardless of the decision, as well as supporting Fuwa.

[Mephisto]

This has blown up really fast. My opinion regarding this:

 

People don't seem to realize what fuwanovel's place in the community is. Fuwanovel holds the role of being the easiest gateway in to trying out VNs in the western community, providing an opportunity to people who don't really know what the genre is and all the annoying technical difficulties associated with getting a VN to work to experience what playing one is like. 

 

Fuwanovel is there to provide people an opportunity to get in to VNs. The means to this is through piracy since any other method to get to VNs is absolutely ridiculous until you're used to figuring out how to get these damn japanese games working. 

 

Topic 1: If Fuwanovel is there to provide people an opportunity to get in to VNs, then shouldn't they be promoting localization as well, since that will allow for a legal method for people to acquire VNs?

 

Fuwanovel DOES promote localization. Most of the staff have official copies of games they like that were localized, and even I have a copy of Yumina. (Digression, the process to buying this game through Jast was kind of annoying, would be nice if they could do something about that since it definitely dissuaded me from buying more games to be honest >.>) 

 

Fuwanovel is a piracy site. In fact, Fuwanovel is an important piracy site. Fuwanovel is going to provide content that violates copyright laws. This dissuades some japanese companies from attempting to localize due to the piracy rates outside of Japan. This is something about Fuwanovel that can not change since it's the core of what Fuwanovel is. Furthermore, I doubt this has to be said, but removing the ability to pirate VNs is also going to kill the majority of the existing VN community in the west. If you're in support of that and bringing in a new generation of visual novel readers (who may not even exist), then it's not worth arguing with you since you're on the same level of people who believe that you aren't and shouldn't be able to enjoy VNs unless you know Japanese. 

 

This however, doesn't mean that Fuwanovel can't work together with localization companies. In fact, Fuwanovel already has an unofficial gentleman's agreement regarding not offering VNs that are already licensed. I think this is the right way to go. In fact, since Fuwanovel only released fan translated games, the Fuwanovel community isn't even the pirates that localizing companies claim to be hurting their profits. The pirates who are hurting their profits are the pirates who crack and release localized games within a week or even before the official release.

 

Since Fuwanovel doesn't do this, nor does Fuwanovel even host localized games, claims outside of "licensing dificulties" in regards to Fuwanovel hurting localizers are groundless. 

 

Topic 2:  Should Fuwanovel remove Grisaia and Planetarian from it's website?

 

Yes, Fuwanovel should keep the page for those games alive, but I believe that we should take down the torrents for the games, at the very least temporarily. 

 

The pages should be kept alive, since Fuwa is used to look for games, and have the download place redirect to where they can buy the game. 

 

Argument against this: Fuwanovel is supposed to make these games available to people! 

 

Fuwanovel is a database for fan translated games. Once the game is officially localized, Fuwanovel no longer has any responsibility for making this game available to people. This game will be available to people through the legal means, and the illegal mean will still be available, just not through Fuwanovel. It's not Fuwanovel's job to provide every single Visual Novel for free to the west, not even Aaeru wanted that. 

 

Furthermore: The new releases will be bringing in the people who originally translated the game, and building off of that. 

 

If the new release is going to be the same as the old release, except with some more quality checking by the original fan translators, then there is no reason to keep the old version up once the translators release the new version. In fact, the translators likely want the old version taken down if they feel their new version is a better representation. 

 

Argument 2: "Censoring" of the game

 

Please, this is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen. This argument is as valid as the argument that translating a game is akin to ruining the game, and that everyone should just learn japanese if they want to play japanese games. 

 

This "censoring" as it is called, is something that the original producers choose to do, and is simply something people will have to deal with in bringing story-based titles to the west. When people read a story vn, they don't read it for porn. The only reason Japanese developers included the porn in the first place is because they needed to in order to sell the game because of the market in Japan. In fact, you could say that being able to release a version without any porn is actually more in line with what the original creator intended for a story based game. (Look at the cringe H-scenes in the Fate series, and then at all ages Mahoyo, which Nasu spent a shit ton of time on and something he was trying to make a masterpiece)

 

To complete the analogy, an english version of a japanese game is going to be different than the japanese version of the japanese game. This doesn't mean the english version is going to be any less enjoyable since it's an english version instead of the japanese version. (Ignoring Machine translation here / close to machine translation). The translation is just something the english audience has to deal with, and in fact, if you look at the response to the leaked Ataraxia patch, you could say they've gotten used to the fact that translation isn't perfect just fine. 

 

以上です

[LiquidShu]

This is a pirating website.  You are pirates.  That's what you do: walk the grey line to accomplish what you think is right.  If you don't like it, then Fuwanovel isn't for you. 

 

http://youtu.be/GXoZsgNHquM

Excuse me for a moment for going off topic but I would like to say my thoughts on this. 

 

Fuwa to me isn't just a "pirating" site, I would have never been able to play most of the VN's I have played or plan to play because I wouldn't have even known about them. Sure I know what VN's are thanks to my obsessive watching of anime but never would have played them for a long time at least with out fuwa. The community so far is something I really enjoy as well! So, to me it is more than a "piracy" website it is a window that got me into a different media that I now support fully when I can. While being able to get help and make new friends in a so far amazing community of people. In short I hope fuwa is able to prosper and make the right decision for this site that would get it closer to its goal while helping the VN community and industry if possible.

[メルP]

Fuwanovel is a database for fan translated games. Once the game is officially localized, Fuwanovel no longer has any responsibility for making this game available to people. This game will be available to people through the legal means, and the illegal mean will still be available, just not through Fuwanovel. It's not Fuwanovel's job to provide every single Visual Novel for free to the west, not even Aaeru wanted that.

Eh? Responsibility? Job? I don't think any of these terms can be applied to sites like Fuwa. Fuwa is a "for people, by people" kind of site (at least this is what I think it is).

Having some VN sold officially in US does not equals to "yep, its now available!". Pretty sure for many-many people this "availability" changes nothing.

Yes it's not Fuwanovel's job to provide every single Visual Novel for free to the west. But if there are people who can provide, and not necessarily every single, but this or that one - why stop them? And wanted Aaeru that or not - hard to say. But pretty sure she wasn't against it.

Edit: Also in terms of Japanese media (not only VN's) "west" doesn't means US it means everything except Japan.

Edit: oh, while I'm at it. I don't mind Fuwa releases to be removed. (I'm a prepatched release hater after all ). But It kinda hurts to see that people who are satisfied with that official release (and can afford it) are trying to take away stuff from everyone else. Also it doesn't makes sense to remove torrents. Removing the info from the main page (moving the info to the forum?) but keeping torrents makes more sense. Fuwa was never against sharing even already released official translations. Its just having them on the main page is problematic. But now you're talking about removing even fanmade ones...

Edited July 6, 2014 by メルP

[sanahtlig]

When people read a story vn, they don't read it for porn.

That's a broad generalization and an incorrect one.  It's like saying people don't buy Danielle Steele novels for the smut.  Sure they do.  And as you say, the porn is there for a reason--because some people like it.  Westerners aren't a different species of human from the Japanese.  Why would it be so shocking that many Westerners would share the same tastes?

 

While it has only tangental bearing on this discussion, their choice to localize the all-ages version only is why I won't be buying Grisaia.  That's simply not the direction I want the VN industry going in.

[Guest]

Keeping the porn would only have a bad influence on the sales, would it be because people will mostly avoid it or because they would not be allowed to sell it on big public platforms such as Steam.

 

I thought this was clear and understandable.

 

However there is no reason not to provide a restitution patch for the previous community.

If they don't, fuwa has no reason to remove the current torrent.

[solidbatman]

ITT from some Fuwa Staff: Not everyone can afford everything so lets just give things out for free. VNs are not your right to have. They are a luxury good that is not required to live. I 100% understand people who say they won't be able to afford Grisaia, or Planetarian, but you are not entitled to get these things for free. It's called reality (something certain people refuse to actually see) and that reality is that you are hurting the western VN industry by cutting into sales. Don't give me that "no one is hurt by it" nonsense. Most people who download from Fuwanovel do not speak on the forums, they have no accounts here. So while a lot of you might go out and buy the official release, the majority of people who use Fuwanovel will not as free is easier than buying. That is a large group of people that Fuwanovel could go out of its way to encourage supporting official releases. Many people simply won't listen though and will go find a different place to download the novel, but if Fuwanovel convinces some to go buy the VN instead of blindly pretending the official releases don't exist, I'd say that is helping the western market more than "hurr durr piracy" ever will. 

TL;DR I feel like Fuwanovel's ideology that is forwarded by Steve and Kaguya is rooted in a delusional outlook on how basic buying habits work. 

[Steve]

The thing you don't see is that Downloading a game ≠ lost sale

It is the classic piracy argument everywhere and is confirmed truth.

The companies that realize that and stop fighting these pirates and focus on pleasing its customers will have much more success than a company sacrificing the satisfaction of paying customers to try to stop people from playing their game without paying.

 

And the luxury isn't the fact that you are able get a copy, the luxury is the feeling you were able to support developer you like and that you might help them make more games.

You cannot compare anything like this to physical goods, because in this case there is an unlimited supply and so everyone can have it. There already is enough stuff in the world that some people will NEVER be able to afford in their life, whether it is a car, expensive food, visiting certain locations, or even proper health care.

That's because there is limited supply of cars and so the more privileged people offer more money to take them first, there is limited supply of food, limited space in transport vehicles and hotels, limited amount of doctors able to provide health care. So people with more privileges can have more of those things already.

But when there is an unlimited supply where everyone is able to download a game and read it. It is not only for the privileged enough to afford it, it is for everyone.

 

You say that reading a VN is not required to live - I would rather say that reading a VN is not required to survive. But life is not about surviving, life is about living and the point of living is to live, not to survive.

You can be locked away, receive all the food and water that you need to survive, but would that really be a life? Many people live like that from day to day, just surviving in the world, hoping that one day it can change.

And VNs are a great way to make your life alive, they offer you information to absorb, they offer you emotions like love and passion, but even happiness and resolution after a sad moment, they can offer you closure to a story you can experience for yourself, a closure missing from your life of constant never ending survival.

And just like information, emotions are also required to live. You can survive without all of those but there is a reason human brain gets bored and that boredom can be so painful at times - at that point you are starving for those things, for information, for emotions. And even though you will not die, would life without those thins still be life?

I myself cannot imagine, because I was lucky enough to find all those things through the internet, where there isn't a limited number of those things and that's why everyone should get knowledge, everyone should get a book or VN to read and experience emotions. Everyone should also get a way to express their emotions and their thoughts, without being limited by government or whoever in their expression.

 

 

 

Lastly, piracy of games, movies, music and books has been here since the possibility of unlimited supply came - yet all those industries still work and shine. That is because piracy has no influence on the future of an industry, if the product is good, people will reward you - if money is what you want people will reward you with money. Because what else do people spend their spare money on - sure often times things they don't need, but most often things they like and enjoy.

These neo-pirates don't hoard the money in treasure rooms or on treasure islands, they use the money they have to support things they like, even though they cannot support as many things as other people can. Because money is worthless if you cannot use it. So it is not like these people have millions of dollars but are too evil to support a VN company. Once they get more money they will be able to support more. Or maybe they won't, maybe they will forget or never get the money to do so, they might just spread the world about it and make others buy it - or maybe they wont do even that. But in any of those cases there is nothing lost, the company is not deprived of anything, they still have the same amount of unlimited copies as they had before that happened.

[Guest]

The thing you don't see is that Downloading a game ≠ lost sale

It is the classic piracy argument everywhere and is confirmed truth.

The companies that realize that and stop fighting these pirates and focus on pleasing its customers will have much more success than a company sacrificing the satisfaction of paying customers to try to stop people from playing their game without paying.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.

A quick search on the internet tells me that (on most of the serious websites) : part of the online community and some journalists agree with you and 100% of the economists say piracy is harmful to buisiness's. 

So please, no more of this. Unless you studied economics, that point is totally invalid. And if you did, you'd know that it is.

 

And think for a second, why would companies fight against something that would supposedly bring profit to them ?

 

And I get your point about people not being able to purchase VN's.

But does fuwa have to be the one providing these torrents which are harmful to localization companies who have the power to spread VN's ?

If people want something for free online, they'll get it. Does fuwa have to get involved into more illegal issues than it already has ? I don't think so. =/

 

And yeah, it's sad, but no this world is not fair, and yes you have to pay, even for entertainement.

 

I thought fuwa was about promoting fan translation (which has 0 influence on Japanese sales) and allowing acces to unavailble content in the west, and i'm totally supportive to that cause. 

[sanahtlig]

The thing you don't see is that Downloading a game ≠ lost sale

It is the classic piracy argument everywhere and is confirmed truth.

This is as simplistic and wrong as the opposing argument: every download is a lost sale.  Piracy DOES hurt sales of VNs.  When a crack is released for their games, Mangagamer knows it, because suddenly their sales tank.  Available fan translations hurt sales of VNs (to the VN fandom): that's why MG typically avoids localizing titles that have been fan translated.

 

Piracy is a culture.  And like any other culture, it's contagious.  If all your friends pirate, you're more likely to pirate.  If all your friends support the industry, you're more likely to support the industry.  If Fuwanovel steps up and says "Hey, we have a stance on this: pirating these things isn't ok", then some people will be influenced by that.  And when pirated copies become just a little harder to find, some people with more money than time will be convinced to support the industry rather than track down a torrent.  And for everyone else: there's other sites, and also many many other games.

[Mephisto]

This is as simplistic and wrong as the opposing argument: every download is a lost sale.  Piracy DOES hurt sales of VNs.  When a crack is released for their games, Mangagamer knows it, because suddenly their sales tank.  Available fan translations hurt sales of VNs (to the VN fandom): that's why MG typically avoids localizing titles that have been fan translated.

 

Piracy is a culture.  And like any other culture, it's contagious.  If all your friends pirate, you're more likely to pirate.  If all your friends support the industry, you're more likely to support the industry.  If Fuwanovel steps up and says "Hey, we have a stance on this: pirating these things isn't ok", then some people will be influenced by that.  And when pirated copies become just a little harder to find, some people with more money than time will be convinced to support the industry rather than track down a torrent.  And for everyone else: there's other sites, and also many many other games.

 

This conveniently leaves out the portion stated by MG that sales tank after a certain point naturally, and it's when a crack for their game is released for their game before the natural drop in sales arrives, that their sales actually take a big hit. This should be obvious already, but Fuwanovel isn't even indirectly responsible for that. 

 

At any rate, people can argue for days about piracy, but the fact of the matter is nobody has concrete statistics that weigh both the benefits and negatives of piracy against each other. which makes this a pointless exercise in arguing one's personal beliefs. 

 

The argument isn't about whether or not Fuwanovel should continue pirating though, it's related to Fuwanovel's policy towards localized games. 

 

Up to this point fuwanovel has been supportive of localization attempts, since opening the legal market brings in people an illegal one wouldn't, and the question is how far Fuwanovel will go in their support of these localization attempts.

 

Current Policy:

 

Fuwanovel does not host officially localized games that were not previously fan translated. 

 

Question:

 

Does Fuwanovel take down games that were previously fan translated and then localized? 

 

Looking at Steins;Gate, the original torrent to it was taken down, but a link to the forums which links to pirate bay with the JAST version was put up. 

 

Is Fuwanovel's stance "Localization is good as long as they localize their own games instead of localizing games already fan translated games"? 

 

Support all localization? 

 

Fuck Localization, fan translating > money hungry companies? (Actually let's ignore this topic since it's pretty stupid and purely emotional) 

(This choice is essentially just cut all ties with localization companies for any reason whatsoever, and pretty much ignore they exist) 

 

The question isn't whether fuwanovel should shut down all it's torrents, it's whether to specifically shut down torrents that companies are trying to localize in order to show support for their efforts. 

 

For what reason does Grisaia and Planetarian specifically have to be kept up once a newer version of it comes out? 

[Guest]

At any rate, people can argue for days about piracy, but the fact of the matter is nobody has concrete statistics that weigh both the benefits and negatives of piracy against each other. which makes this a pointless exercise in arguing one's personal beliefs. 

 

Okay first point ... so nobody has statistics ... interesting ...

What does it take for you guys to understand that piracy affects negatively the sales ? Making a Nobel in Economics join the topic ?

 

As for fuwanovel hosting copies of localized games, it's the same, it will negatively influence the sales.

Thankfully, fuwa does not do that and that's good.

 

Unless the game is officially sold in the West I totally agree that fuwa has no influence on Japanese sales and on the way the game will sell.

 

And I know that there are no bad intentions behind providing free translations of localized games, however you have to look at the consequences.

 

So I hope there wasn't a misunderstanding, it would be a shame to fight over a mistake.

 

 

 

Obviously fuwa isn't going to shut down all the torrents.

 

And I wished fuwa would support the localization companies.

And I wished these companies would respect the translators. 

 

I also think Sekai and other companies do a terrible job at trying to sell their copies and do not treat the fan-translation community as well as they should. Because yes, suddenly asking for people to pay for something they previously didn't isn't the best marketing idea, espacially when a big part of the community revolves around these free releases.

 

Damn this is hard to explain. I basiclly think people should respect the work of translator and the choices they make : because it's their work and they can chose whether they want to sell it or not. (I think I said that everytime but it's what's the most important).

 

And I think that is said all I had to say, otherwise I'm going to repeat myself again.

And I still think people have to pay for entertainement, when you go see a concert you pay, and if you don't, you don't get to see the show even if there are still available seats. It's the same idea.

And yes, if people actually want to read a Vn which is localized, they'll have to take the risks that regular pirating implies.

[Narcosis]

So, you guys still believe that download ≠ lost sale? Let me tell you something.

 

There are two types of consumers - those who have the means to buy things and those who haven't. Those who have the means, will buy the game. Those who can't, will download it. It does not mean a lost sale, because those people weren't meant to be their customers in the first place. Only those with the means are ought to become customers. Now, you forget about simple thing that piracy = stealing, but in case of our current generation, we're not managing physical assets, but digital data and that data is an unlimited, renewable source. People who can't buy the game (yet) aren't stealing anything from the creators, nor publishers. There's no loss. They aren't doing any harm. Capiche? The thing you believe in is an intricate web of deceptions, created by the capitalistic dinosaurs to ensure their status quo in this modern age, which already changes way too fast for them to adapt.

 

One can say that a visual novel, a book or a game isn't required to live (or survive, as Steve stated). Surely, they won't feed us, but at the same time they are the food for thought; they are the things which actually shape our lives and perceptions. Everyone has the right to access our cultural heritage in the same manner as everyone has the right to live. It's fine to have such a high esteem, but you could say that's also an luxury not everyone can afford.

[Nosebleed]

I think Mephisto's post clarifies what's going on. I don't understand all this piracy talk either.

You guys are just going on an endless loop and you're not going to achieve anything by it because you'll never agree with each other.

 

We're not here arguing about what is right or wrong about piracy, we're discussing what is Fuwanovel for, that's what should be at stake here.

 

Because let's face reality: We will never reach a consensus on what's right or wrong about piracy. EVER. (All caps for maximum impact)

This discussion could go on forever and I don't see the point in it either.

 

Let's focus on what's at hand and what matters: Is Fuwanovel pro or against localization?

 

That's really all that matters here because wether anyone, be it a user here or not, likes it or not, it all boils down to what Fuwanovel is for and that's when we go back to what started Fuwanovel, what started it all and the reason why localized VNs were taken down to begin with.

 

I've asked Tay about it and I'm waiting for a reply on this matter so I'm not going to post much about it as I'm relatively new compared to all the other staff, therefore my knowledge on the topic is reduced to say the least.

 

If Fuwanovel's policy is to take down licensed VNs, whatever the reason (legal issues, pressure, good will, etc.), then it should stay like that. Period.

There is no right or wrong here, there's just a policy.

 

I just felt like this discussion is focusing on all the wrong aspects and felt like calling this out.

[DrKleiner]

Right as I was editing my kek post it got deleted. I guess I'll just post it here now.

 

-TLWiki removed the patch. It would be a gesture of good will to remove the torrent to respect both the decision of the guys who helped get that patch out and the fact that someone got it licensed in the first place.

 

- http://torrentfreak.com/google-piracy-availability-pricing-problem-140310/

  The game will be available in a digital and (probably) physical form, so there's literally no good reason as to why Fuwanovel should keep the Jap version up. "Oh but the Jap version has H scenes!!!" Yes, and removing it from Fuwanovel won't affect that. Deleting something from Fuwan =/= Deleting from existence. Also let's face it, when something's been on the internet it'll always be on the internet. Someone'll reupload the patch and prolly the Fuwan release.

 

-The meaning of life and how we live doesn't have any connection as to discussing why a torrent should be kept on Fuwanovel.

 

-Buying the localized release = increasing the interest of one party for localizing more releases. One party more interested = multiple parties get interested as well. So that's why you should delete the torrent and post a link to where people can buy that release. if they dont want, they can just do a single google search and holy shit there it is

 

-kek

[Funnerific]

Right as I was editing my kek post it got deleted. I guess I'll just post it here now.

 

-TLWiki removed the patch. It would be a gesture of good will to remove the torrent to respect both the decision of the guys who helped get that patch out and the fact that someone got it licensed in the first place.

 

- http://torrentfreak.com/google-piracy-availability-pricing-problem-140310/

  The game will be available in a digital and (probably) physical form, so there's literally no good reason as to why Fuwanovel should keep the Jap version up. "Oh but the Jap version has H scenes!!!" Yes, and removing it from Fuwanovel won't affect that. Deleting something from Fuwan =/= Deleting from existence. Also let's face it, when something's been on the internet it'll always be on the internet. Someone'll reupload the patch and prolly the Fuwan release.

 

-The meaning of life and how we live doesn't have any connection as to discussing why a torrent should be kept on Fuwanovel.

 

-Buying the localized release = increasing the interest of one part for localizing more releases. One part more interested = multiple parties get interested as well. So that's why you should delete the torrent and post a link to where people can buy that release. if they dont want, they can just do a single google search and holy shit there it is

 

-kek

I suggest you re-read Steve's posts, as he states the reason for this in almost every one of them.

[Steve]

Let's focus on what's at hand and what matters: Is Fuwanovel pro or against localization?

 

But this is the problem and why you don't understand, it is not such question at all, it is not whether we are for or against them because the matter is not as black and white as you make it sound.

 

As explained in one of my previous posts, by keeping the fan translated version we are filling a hole the localization company just chooses to ignore, because they don't do it for passion or love, they do it for money. And so they will not spend their effort trying to solve how to get the VN to people who cannot afford it, because there is no monetary reward for that job.

And that is where we come and where we have always been - we will still spend countless hours helping the people that were ignored because their lack of MONEY. But we will not ignore them, because we don't care about money, we care about and value different things, things that companies don't even want to admit exist, because all they want is money.

 

And as such we both do our thing and get what we want, we get people's satisfaction and happiness and they get their money.

 

It is not like I am against the company, I'm glad they are doing it, having advertisements and all on steam will help a lot and they will surely make their money, only if its just because its on stream, because some people just want the game in their collection and not just on their harddrive.

 

This is not a war against localization companies, it is just saying that they are incapable of doing things as we want them done and so we have to correct them. And sometimes it takes a lot of work.

[Guest]

There are two types of consumers - those who have the means to buy things and those who haven't. Those who have the means, will buy the game. Those who can't, will download it. It does not mean a lost sale, because those people weren't meant to be their customers in the first place. Only those with the means are ought to become customers. Now, you forget about simple thing that piracy = stealing, but in case of our current generation, we're not managing physical assets, but digital data and that data is an unlimited, renewable source. People who can't buy the game (yet) aren't stealing anything from the creators, nor publishers. There's no loss. They aren't doing any harm. Capiche? The thing you believe in is an intricate web of deceptions, created by the capitalistic dinosaurs to ensure their status quo in this modern age, which already changes way too fast for them to adapt.

 

One can say that a visual novel, a book or a game isn't required to live (or survive, as Steve stated). Surely, they won't feed us, but at the same time they are the food for thought; they are the things which actually shape our lives and perceptions. Everyone has the right to access our cultural heritage in the same manner as everyone has the right to live. It's fine to have such a high esteem, but you could say that's also an luxury not everyone can afford.

 

 

Because let's face reality: We will never reach a consensus on what's right or wrong about piracy. EVER. (All caps for maximum impact)

This discussion could go on forever and I don't see the point in it either.

 

 

Okay I'm gonna talk a really easy example for ALL of the people saying there is no loss and that they are doing people who can't afford these games a favor.

 

Let's take a circus. They are having a show tonight.

 

Lots of people are looking foward to it, but not everybody can afford a seat.

 

The people who can buy their seats, enter the marque and get seated.

 

The nice security guard, seeing that not all the seats are taken, decides - with no bad intentions (even the opposite) - to let people enter until the circus is full, cause it's a shame to close the doors even though there are still free seats.

 

Now, first what happens it that : The circus doesn't get the money the deserve, because many people didn't pay.

 

Then, the people who paid, seeing that they can actually enter without paying will change their set of mind and not pay the next time. Because it's not fair for them.

Meaning that at the next show, even less people will pay.

 

And if this continues, the circus will close because whilst their auditorium is full at every show, nobody pays anymore.

 

You just made a circus close ! congratz !

 

In this example, the game copies = seat, the companies = circus, the show = the entertainement, the pirate = the security guard.

 

Now is the security guy doing something bad ? Yes, but he has no idea about the consequences of his actions, he even had good intentions but ended up closing the circus.

[sanahtlig]

I also think Sekai and other companies do a terrible job at trying to sell their copies and do not treat the fan-translation community as well as they should. Because yes, suddenly asking for people to pay for something they previously didn't isn't the best marketing idea, espacially when a big part of the community revolves around these free releases.

They're not targeting this release at the existing fandom that's already played Grisaia no Kaijutsu.  Their goal is probably to release it on Steam.

 

 

Of that list, only Grisaia, Planterian, and Steins;Gate is available from the Fuwanovel main page. (Steins;Gate is a link to piratebay) 

My point is that this is a policy decision.  The outcome will apply to all releases, past and future as well as present.  Focusing on the two titles in contention misses the bigger picture.  Otherwise you're saying "So we have rules for JAST and MG titles.  And we have rules for Sekai Project titles.  And if another company pops up, we'll have a set of rules for them."  And that's just irresponsible.

[Nosebleed]

Steve, I recall Tay saying this was a policy set by himself and Aaeru. So yes it is black and white in this case.

 

What you're trying to achieve here is to change Fuwanovel's policy because if you are supporting this torrent staying, as well as sharing all Fan TLs regardless of licensing, then you are against the policy regardless of anything you might say. Even if you claim the 18+ verison of the Fan TL for Grisaia is its own content, therefore there is no breach of the policy, the Fan TL is owned by Sekai Project now in its entirety, therefore you are hosting something that's been licensed.

 

But more to the point, this is not about 2 particular VNs anymore.

Anything else that's pro sharing all VNs that you posted are just compelling arguments to change Fuwanovel's policy.

 

Now I'm not saying policies can't be changed, but the policy we are supposed to have right now is black and white: no licensed games on Fuwa. Period. Tay said so himself.

 

I know you feel very strongly about how games should be shared with everyone and you make a lot of good arguments for it just like other users here makes arguments on why that shouldn't happen.

 

But at the end of the day what we're trying to get to is Fuwanovel's core policy that should be applied to every VN that we had, have and will have in the future.

Something solid that we will rely on and enforce as our way of doing things.

 

That's all that matters here for me.

 

 

Okay I'm gonna talk a really easy example for ALL of the people saying there is no loss and that they are doing people who can't afford these games a favor.

 

Let's take a circus. They are having a show tonight.

 

Lots of people are looking foward to it, but not everybody can afford a seat.

 

The people who can buy their seats, enter the marque and get seated.

 

The nice security guard, seeing that not all the seats are taken, decides - with no bad intentions (even the opposite) - to let people enter until the circus is full, cause it's a shame to close the doors even though there are still free seats.

 

Now, first what happens it that : The circus doesn't get the money the deserve, because many people didn't pay.

 

Then, the people who paid, seeing that they can actually enter without paying will change their set of mind and not pay the next time. Because it's not fair for them.

Meaning that at the next show, even less people will pay.

 

And if this continues, the circus will close because whilst their auditorium is full at every show, nobody pays anymore.

 

You just made a circus close ! congratz !

 

In this example, the game copies = seat, the companies = circus, the show = the entertainement, the pirate = the security guard.

 

Now is the security guy doing something bad ? Yes, but he has no idea about the consequences of his actions, he even had good intentions but ended up closing the circus.

I'm supporting the torrent being taken down, why am I quoted?

I never stated my beliefs on piracy either. I'm focusing on this thread's original goal and not take it into needless arguments.

And I'm sure I'm not saying something ridiculous when I mention "we'll never reach a consensus" because if we could reach one this thread wouldn't have 3 pages of arguing (Edit: well i'll be darned it has 4 now!)

[Guest]

I'm supporting the torrent being taken down, why am I quoted?

I never stated my beliefs on piracy either. I'm focusing on this thread's original goal and not take it into needless arguments.

And I'm sure I'm not saying something ridiculous when I mention "we'll never reach a consensus" because if we could reach one this thread wouldn't have 3 pages of arguing (Edit: well i'll be darned it has 4 now!)

 

I quoted you, it's nothing personnal and I'm sorry if it seemed like it was.

 

I just want to end this stupid side discussion about piracy and sales and make people understand that there is no way it can have a good effect.

 

Hopefully people will understand after that. Once again I'm terribly sorry, I just quoted the two last post saying something about it.

I won't say anything on the subject anymore, it has irritated me more than it should have done and I appologize for it.

[Mephisto]

If people insist on bringing up this piracy crap, I'll just leave this here. 

 

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/12/economics-of-piracy/

[Steve]

the Fan TL is owned by Sekai Project now in its entirety, therefore you are hosting something that's been licensed

 

That's the thing, Sekai owns translation rights for a game, but they don't own "the" Fan translation released years ago - fans own that translation, free people that were gifted this translation own it now.

If you gifted something to someone (out of again unlimited supply), you don't then come and collect it from everyone.

And even if you improve (or "censor") your work and decide to sell it later, it is no longer the same thing.

 

We were gifted the fan translation and allowed to share it for free with the rest of the world - we are not talking about the new version (whether improved or not), we are talking about the gift we and the all Visual Novel fandom received years ago for Planetarian and a year ago or so for Grisaia.

 

And that is the version we should retain on fuwanovel as that is the one that was gifted to the world. That is the one that helped the fandom of the games to grow and we should support that movement going forward.

[Narcosis]

Okay I'm gonna talk a really easy example for ALL of the people saying there is no loss and that they are doing people who can't afford these games a favor.

 

Let's take a circus. They are having a show tonight.

 

Lots of people are looking foward to it, but not everybody can afford a seat.

 

The people who can buy their seats, enter the marque and get seated.

 

The nice security guard, seeing that not all the seats are taken, decides - with no bad intentions (even the opposite) - to let people enter until the circus is full, cause it's a shame to close the doors even though there are still free seats.

 

Now, first what happens it that : The circus doesn't get the money the deserve, because many people didn't pay.

 

Then, the people who paid, seeing that they can actually enter without paying will change their set of mind and not pay the next time. Because it's not fair for them.

Meaning that at the next show, even less people will pay.

 

And if this continues, the circus will close because whilst their auditorium is full at every show, nobody pays anymore.

 

You just made a circus close ! congratz !

 

In this example, the game copies = seat, the companies = circus, the show = the entertainement, the pirate = the security guard.

 

Now is the security guy doing something bad ? Yes, but he has no idea about the consequences of his actions, he even had good intentions but ended up closing the circus.

Seats aren't copies, my dear. In case of digital download, there's an unlimited number of seats that won't ever get filled. Besides, a lot of people with money won't have any reason, nor obligation to change their minds and turn to stealing; heck, they typically pay because they can and because it's just easier to pay and get what you want in an instant, instead having to lean towards pirating. Steam made those things even far more simpler and it's just a matter of a bank account accepting digital transactions and a few clicks. There's also that fuzzy feeling we get from buying things, because it makes us happy and assures that we made the RIGHT thing. A lot of people simply wants to support creators and suppliers of various goods, whatever their cause remains.

 

This discussion slowly derails from the most important aspect regarding actual impact on this community, that might come with any kind of repercussions. In worst case, SP will issue a C&D and Fuwa will have to take the downloads down. Whether the staff will actually agree to this, or not is a different story. In the end, people forget that in case of Fuwanovel, it's an entirely different version of the game being available. Forcing parties to take down stuff or suffer legal issues is a pain in in the ass, as well. I doubt that SP would even want to actually waste their time and resources to try and take Fuwanovel on a judicial route. It's not that simple as sending an inquiry to the ISP's and ask them to block or take the website down.