Do games like 'The Walking Dead' count under the 'Visual Novel' genre? What's everyone's take on this?

[Darklord Rooke]

Fuwanovel seems to have a limitation on how many times you can quote somebody. Because of this I'll be splitting my reply into two.

 

Pool of Radiance, since you have fixed on that one game, had a major dev team. In fact, just checked - a 35 person development team. 

 

I would wager you are looking at the sequel (2001) and not the original (1988). 35 people is a lot for RPGs, even by today's standards.

 

It had very little structure and narrative because cRPGs were based on tabletop RPGs, and the assumption was that unstructured was better. 

 

Once again, tabletop RPGs put a lot of emphasis on narrative. Unstructured narrative yes, but still a narrative. I believe even you have admitted that.

 

Furthermore, the game wasn't any less structured than games like Baldur's Gate. Games like Baldur's Gate and Torment emphasised player choice and freedom as well as delivering a storytelling experience.I would love to hear your thoughts on what makes Pool of Radiance such an unstructured game in comparison.

 

As time went by, cRPGs began to limit the player's choices (anathema to tabletop RPGs) in order to present a better story. 

 

No. CRPGs needed to limit choices from the outset due to technical deficiency. Modernish CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment, offered more choices and presented the player with more options than most of their older CRPG brethren, which were basically combat sims because of various limitations.

 

This was done because a better story was preferred by customers. 

 

You really do just make this stuff up as you go along, don't you? Two words. Diablo (1, 2 and ,3) and Skyrim. In fact, games like Planescape Torment (which presented a quality story) performed so well, they pretty much killed off story based RPGs for the next few years. All you saw were hack and slash diablo clones, like Titan Quest and Sacred, or sandbox style RPGs like Daggerfall and Morrowind. 

 

Many of the storytelling elements, including style of presentation, matched those storytelling styles that already existed in the ADV/VN world.

 

Style of presentation? Explain. If you mean things like the 'text box' CRPGs had those since the 70s.

 

Also, I never claimed that ADV/VNs caused RPGs to adopt. I said that those elements already existed, and that the cRPG genre began to adopt them.

 

Then why bother mentioning them at all? 

 

And what are these elements you are so fond of mentioning? If you're talking about the structured story presentation, once again that's the only possible choice available to developers.

 

Storytelling, as in presenting a story to the player, is NOT an inherent part of the tabletop RPG experience. The players develop the story themselves, through their actions, because the DM can react to those actions. It is NOT a case of the DM controlling the story, forcing the players to react in fixed ways, deliver scripted lines, and hold predetermined personalities.

 

One day, when I say the words "CRPG developers sought to emulate the tabletop experience as thoroughly as computers would allow," it will get through to you. While you are correct when you say the tabletop narrative is controlled by the players, and offers close to unlimited choices, current technology cannot possibly emulate this. That's the reason why a more structured story has always been implemented. So, while a delivered story isn't an inherent part of the tabletop experience, it has been an unquestionable part of the CRPG experience as they sought to emulate its tabletop ancestor.

 

Modern RPGs, both Japanese and Western, have turned against that old-school tenet.

 

?????

 

Which modern RPGs would these be? Sandbox RPGs, hack and slash, story based, isometric? I'm sure you're not talking about games like Divinity, are you? Because that would just be absurd.

 

Instead, even games likes Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, much less games like Final Fantasy 13, put the player into a very structured world.

 

All CRPGs have been structured worlds due to technical limitations.

 

 The player has a limited choice of methods to interact with the environment - not because of technical limitations but because by imposing these limits, the developers can force the story to proceed in a controlled direction.

 

Wrong. Offering infinite possibilities to interact with the environment at every turn is a) impossible, and even if it wasn't it would b)cost far too much money and c) take far too much time. If you disagree, then I'm open to suggestions on how you would offer unlimited methods to interact with the environment.

 

[Darklord Rooke]

 

 

Tabletop is player based story development.
Computer is developer based telling of a story.
Not the same.

 

And what would your point be? I never said they were the same, I said CRPGs sought to emulate tabletop RPGs. As I keep on saying, offering infinite choices and a player driven story is impossible with current technology, if you think it isn't then please inform us how you would achieve that. Having players making limited choices within a presented framework is so far as close as you can get without going multiplayer. Because of this, a 'told story' has always been a fundamental part of the CRPG framework, as 'a' narrative is closer to RPG roots than 'no narrative.'

 

Finally, I'll say this again. You are thinking of "Visual Novels" as a subset of "Novels". Don't. They don't fit there at all. They developed mostly out of Adventure games rather than novels, and thus have a different background. Treat "Visual Novel" as a genre all its own, without your book-based preconceptions interfering, and you'll be much more likely to reach common ground with others in the community.

 

I am not thinking of Visual Novels as novels at all. However, the potential for VNs to present a player-dictated story, as opposed to a story told to the player, is what splits the categories. It's why novels were categorised differently to gamebooks, and it's why VNs and KNs are undoubtedly two completely different types of games.

 

Don't assume I think something I haven't actually said. In fact, I believe Pabloc and I had a bit of a back-and-forth when I suggested Visual Novels couldn't possibly be novels.

 

 But, that doesn't mean games NEVER tell their stories in the VN format. And if they do, why shouldn't we classify them as BOTH games from the specific gameplay genres, and VNs? 

 

Because if we start categorising games by story-telling method, we'll have to classify ALL games by storytelling method. Why do those VN/game hybrids get special treatment? I know VNDB like having a hodpe-podge, do as you please type of categorising system, but the system we have in place in the West is fairly ordered atm. Piling in these inconsistencies is not the way to keep it so.

[hussien-11]

When you start playing the Walking Dead, the game will tell you that its an Interactive Story. does it matter if it is a VN or not ? : )

[Toranth]

Too many quotes.

Pool of Radiance, released by SSI in 1988, had a 35 person development team. It was a major product by a well funded company, and it basically set the standard for that generation of RPGs. It's right there on Wikipedia, the first Google link. If you had bothered to do the slightest bit of actual research before spouting off, you would have seen this yourself.

And when you disagree with me that RPGs changed in 1990-ish, why do you keep bringing up games from a decade or two later?

I mentioned that ADV/VNs did not cause RPGs to change because you had just in the previous post accused me of a post hoc fallacy, so I was pointing out that I had never made the claim you attacked.

And, one final time, I will point out that cRPGs do storytelling to the player. Tabletop RPGs make the players develop their own story. cRPGs are not following their tabletop ancestors when they do something completely opposite! Games that do try to imitate the open world and free play of tabletop games are few, and usually unsuccessful.

Skyrim, which you brought up, is an excellent example of such a game. It was wildly successful, beyond even the developers expectations, selling roughly 10 million copies worldwide.

Final Fantasy 13, which is considered one of the worst in the series in terms of quality and sales, has also sold 10 million copies worldwide.

That's why I say that JRPGs (and other fixed story driven RPGs) are more popular than free-flow sandbox style Western RPGs. If you had bothered to do any research, you would see that there are actual numbers behind these claims, and not that I just "make this stuff up".

So, since you've stopped actual trying to be a polite conversationalist and instead resorted to insults, I'm done. Your aren't worth responding to if that's how you are going to behave.

[hussien-11]

 

Final Fantasy 13, which is considered one of the worst in the series in terms of quality and sales, has also sold 10 million copies worldwide.

That's why I say that JRPGs (and other fixed story driven RPGs) are more popular than free-flow sandbox style Western RPGs. If you had bothered to do any research, you would see that there are actual numbers behind these claims, and not that I just "make this stuff up".

 

Actually, Skyrim reached 20 million copy worldwide, and FFXIII didn't sell 10 million, the whole trilogy did though. I think... story driven RPG's were more popular in the 90's to mid 2000's, but after that there was a shift toward open world games in general.

[CCM]

This is like comparing FPS with TPS and comparing RWBY with anime.

[Darklord Rooke]

Pool of Radiance, released by SSI in 1988, had a 35 person development team. It was a major product by a well funded company, and it basically set the standard for that generation of RPGs. It's right there on Wikipedia, the first Google link. If you had bothered to do the slightest bit of actual research before spouting off, you would have seen this yourself.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1336605/fullcredits?ref_=ttrel_sa_1

 

And when you disagree with me that RPGs changed in 1990-ish, why do you keep bringing up games from a decade or two later?

 

I have never made that assertion. CRPGs have changed, they are changing and they will continue to change. They just haven't changed the way YOU said they have.

 

And, one final time, I will point out that cRPGs do storytelling to the player. Tabletop RPGs make the players develop their own story. cRPGs are not following their tabletop ancestors when they do something completely opposite! Games that do try to imitate the open world and free play of tabletop games are few, and usually unsuccessful.

 

And once more I will point out that CRPGs chose to incorporate the narrative of tabletops, but without the ability to allow infinite freedom, the only choice was to allow limited freedoms within a more structured framework. It was the best approximation and when you can't imitate something perfectly, you make the best approximation you can.

 

Bethesda games are open world and free play..... 

 

 

Actually, Skyrim reached 20 million copy worldwide, and FFXIII didn't sell 10 million, the whole trilogy did though. I think... story driven RPG's were more popular in the 90's to mid 2000's, but after that there was a shift toward open world games in general.

 

FFXIII sold almost 10, I think it reached 7 ish or something. But you are correct that Skyrim sold over 20 million, which more than doubled and possibly tripled FFXIII's sale figures.

 

So, since you've stopped actual trying to be a polite conversationalist and instead resorted to insults, I'm done. Your aren't worth responding to if that's how you are going to behave. 

 

Says the person who entered the argument with the incredibly polite comment that my opinion was both blind and narrow-minded. Whether you respond to my posts or not is something that frankly doesn't interest me. 

[Toranth]

Actually, Skyrim reached 20 million copy worldwide, and FFXIII didn't sell 10 million, the whole trilogy did though. I think... story driven RPG's were more popular in the 90's to mid 2000's, but after that there was a shift toward open world games in general.

A Bethesda press release announced 20 million, but when questioned refused to state whether this was sold or shipped, and what exactly it included.

3rd party sites put the total at about 17 million shipped worldwide (I missed the 5.5 million PS3 in my first check).

Same third party sites list FF-XIII at about 12 million shipped worldwide.

So, yes, the wildly popular Skyrim, a game doing so well that the original creators admitted to be surprised in their interviews, is selling roughly 50% better than a game that is considered a failure, caused senior staff to resign, and is in no small part responsible for the ill financial health of the company.

[Darklord Rooke]

Once again Toranth is fudging figures. NO respectable 3rd party site esitimates FFXIII at having shipped 12 million copies, unless they're combining games within the trilogy.

 

Furthermore, sales figures of 10 million and shipping figures of 12 million, would have made FFXIII the best selling Final Fantasy game to date. Congratulations are in order, I suppose. Only FF7 boasts comparable figures.

 

The following report can be found in more mainstream sites, like Siliconera. This was written Jan 2013:

 

Yoshinori Kitase, producer ofLightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII, revealed some curious data during a Square Enix preview event for the game. After touting that the entire Final Fantasy franchise had sold more than 100 million units across its lifetime, he displayed a graph which singled out the sales of the Final Fantasy XIII games. “The combined total units shipped for the two titles was recorded to be 9.7 million units,” Kitase said. It's rare to see such explicit numbers; when Sony reported sales of the Vita, for example, it lumped the struggling system's numbers with the PSP. Here, however, Kitase's graph broke down sales and showed that, to date, Final Fantasy XIII has sold approximately 6.6 million units. While that game's numbers were the only ones shown, it's pretty easy to subtract 6.6 million from 9.7 million to find out sales for Final Fantasy XIII-2: 3.1 million. 

 

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/lightning-returns-final-fantasy-xiiis-creators-justify-a-third-game-in-a-se#/entry/signin