What do you think of this plot premise?

[DoodlyNyan]

Ok, here's an idea: How about you make the main Protag a very genius and imaginative that the whole "world" knows him. Until one day, he meets Chiyo. Chiyo asked him whether he can recreate her book. The Protag, knowing that he is very imaginative sneer at her for asking a stupid obvious question. But, after several tries, he doesn't manage to recreate it. He's very irritated and frustated. He then tries to ask Chiyo about what is happening, but Chiyo's already gone. Since that day, the Protag is obsessed about the mysteriousness of Chiyo and that book. He abandons his job and starts a journey to find her.

 

It might seem a little cliche, but you know.

[Narcosis]

That's an interesting concept. There's only one issue - it lacks proper background to support the elements it's being made upon. How are they able to materialize anything out of thin air? Is it some sort of an ESP power, or perhaps a gods' gift? Is it infinite? Are there any drawbacks? What about abuse? Wouldn't it make such "utopia" incredibly susceptible to attacks and eventual collapse? If so, are there any forces/groups who specialize in fighting crime associated with it?

 

As long as you'll manage to do your work, it might become a good foundation for an intriguing story. Do otherwise and everything will become extremely superfluous and artificial.

[Life]

Interesting concept. I kind of get a feeling that this is a dystopian world more than a utopian one. People are said to be full of imagination and expecially children. The concept seems like everyones ability to think creatively is being hindered by something. You have people that can imagine everything they want if they are creative enough. You can create food, resources, computers etc. Instead of "mind money" why not have the entire persons worth based off how well they can create and that the protag is a loner because he doesn't need to trade with anyone else because he can already imagine everything he needs to. 

[Narcosis]

Neat idea, I admit that.

[Bolverk]

hoo, acutally quite the interesting idea.

Maybe call the city "Lucid city"? brainstorming haha. Orignal title is good as well imo .

[SanadaShadow]

Well, if it's a dystopia we're talking about, why not go full Nazi and call it Arya or something, after Hitler's belief of the perfect being known as an "Aryan"?

[Clephas]

If the book was a grimoire that summons Cthulhu Mythos gods, and he becomes obsessed with the evil power shown to him inside it, then I'm all for it.

[laiktail]

Well, let Masaru's ability activate and deactivate at random. And maybe possibly make him start out with a fortune he blows off.

Maybe! 

 

 

Just something that came up on my mind. Have you watched / read Bakuman? The protagonists wrote a manga called Kono Yo Wa Kane to Chie, and I think it bears a small resemblance to your idea. I don't remember exactly what it was about, but it was something like society ranks people by their intelligence and you can actually buy intelligence from other people? Sorry that I'm not really helping much here. My memories are foggy but it was a really good concept, there was a lot of thinking and mind games involved.

I've only watched the first few eps of Bakuman. Interesting idea! I'll look out for Kono Yo Wa Kane to Chie. 

 

 

Sounds like something out of Scribblenauts. You can add my Skype because I'm very interested in walking you through this. 

 

I still don't understand how you can translate imagination or cognitive ability into quantity. Be sure to think about this thoroughly, unless you explore every single possibility the universe you've created has to offer, it would make room for copious amounts of plotholes. What happens when someone "runs out of imagination"? How do you "refuel" it?

 

Anyway, I have an idea for a complex protagonist if you're interested;

To make the story deeper, you can make his access to imagination a unique gift. Something only a select few naturally have. The problem is that he hasn't been using it, and the story would center around a certain phenomenon that requires him to make use of his abilities and essentially discover his hidden power of imagination.

 

You can decide whether or not he was aware of this gift, or if he must be told by a supporting character in the beginning of the story. You can also choose to make him a 'bad guy', so once the story happens he is forced to do good. That would make a great character development.

 

The concept of being able to create things is going to be, at this point, most similar to money in every way. How do children get their "money", for starters? Maybe you can transfer it from one person to another or something. As for the unique gift thing - I think it would change a lot of the original concept, as there would simply be a few superhumans running around as opposed to an entire ecosystem surrounding this resource of imagination. So essentially, it would become a story about very special people; however, people in real life are not necessarily superhuman by birth like that (unless you're talking about autistic savants...) and so it would lose a bit of that reflection. However, at this moment, I love your idea of an almost anti-hero - a bad guy forced to do good - which is something I have been thinking about.  

(I think the anti-hero is defined as someone who actually does bad things to achieve good outcomes, so it might not be the entirely appropriate term here.)

[SanadaShadow]

So can you show him as an innocent that turns into an anti-hero, then?

[laiktail]

I suggest you watch Shinsekai Yori, it has a somewhat similar premise - what would the world be like if people could make their thoughts materialize. Granted, it takes a much darker route than the one you seem to want to take, but it might still give you a few ideas. Not to mention it's a great anime in its own right.

 

Sounds awesome! I'd really love to watch that, Flutterz. At the same time, for the most part, I'm going to try to avoid other anime because of the same reason that people use to watch them - they're full of ideas. I wouldn't want to accidentally use some of those ideas, consciously or subconsciously. 

...that said, I'll probably still watch it.

 

 

Ok, here's an idea: How about you make the main Protag a very genius and imaginative that the whole "world" knows him. Until one day, he meets Chiyo. Chiyo asked him whether he can recreate her book. The Protag, knowing that he is very imaginative sneer at her for asking a stupid obvious question. But, after several tries, he doesn't manage to recreate it. He's very irritated and frustated. He then tries to ask Chiyo about what is happening, but Chiyo's already gone. Since that day, the Protag is obsessed about the mysteriousness of Chiyo and that book. He abandons his job and starts a journey to find her.

 

It might seem a little cliche, but you know.

 

In my mind is something like this. Masaru won't be able to recreate the book. Thus, in a sense, this is where the "adventure" begins. It would be hard to develop a likeable female heroine if the female heroine disappears for a lot of the plot though, so Chiyo will probably be around to say, albeit to accomplish a different motive.

 

 

That's an interesting concept. There's only one issue - it lacks proper background to support the elements it's being made upon. How are they able to materialize anything out of thin air? Is it some sort of an ESP power, or perhaps a gods' gift? Is it infinite? Are there any drawbacks? What about abuse? Wouldn't it make such "utopia" incredibly susceptible to attacks and eventual collapse? If so, are there any forces/groups who specialize in fighting crime associated with it?

 

As long as you'll manage to do your work, it might become a good foundation for an intriguing story. Do otherwise and everything will become extremely superfluous and artificial.

 

Thanks for the feedback! Hmmm, there's a lot of stuff I'd love to cover. I certainly don't want the story to become superfluous and artificial. At the same time, I'd probably want to deliberately miss some points in light of keeping some of the magic in mystery as well as put a more intense focus on the characterization, rather than exposition. I'll try to keep a good balance of both of course, but too much exposition can turn a story into a documentary rather than a tale. For example, Miyazaki's works have a lot of random and unexplained stuff happen, without needing to warrant a full explanation. The beauty is in the worlds and the delight is in the characters. 

 

 

Neat idea, I admit that.

Glad to get your approval IceD.  

 

 

hoo, acutally quite the interesting idea.

Maybe call the city "Lucid city"? brainstorming haha. Orignal title is good as well imo .

After one of the comments talking about the genericness of 'Imagine City', I think I'll call the city Somnio. Somnio means "I dream" in Latin. If you want to look at it really deeply, "somniare" means "to dream" but can also be translated as "to talk nonsense" in certain contexts, so my friends say. 

 

 

Well, if it's a dystopia we're talking about, why not go full Nazi and call it Arya or something, after Hitler's belief of the perfect being known as an "Aryan"?

 

I don't think it'll be a dystopia at this stage. It'll be a world just like ours. some parts of this world are dystopian enough to make even Orwell seem utopian. 

 

 

If the book was a grimoire that summons Cthulhu Mythos gods, and he becomes obsessed with the evil power shown to him inside it, then I'm all for it.

 

...that probably won't happen. Haha! Funny reply.

 

So can you show him as an innocent that turns into an anti-hero, then?

 

Only if he needs to be an anti-hero. I think situations and experiences shape people, who may or may not shape themselves. So whether he's an anti-hero will depend on what situation he's put in, and won't be as simple as "I do good stuff but now Imma do bad stuff". but, don't get me wrong: he will certainly develop his character as much as is believable and necessary. I probably don't want to Macbeth-ify him too much. 

[Flutterz]

Sounds awesome! I'd really love to watch that, Flutterz. At the same time, for the most part, I'm going to try to avoid other anime because of the same reason that people use to watch them - they're full of ideas. I wouldn't want to accidentally use some of those ideas, consciously or subconsciously. 

...that said, I'll probably still watch it.

IMO there's nothing wrong with using other people's ideas, as long as you try to use them consciously rather than subconsciously and build upon them rather than just taking them as-is. Plus odds are you aren't the first to come up with any ideas you might come up with yourself.

[laiktail]

Interesting concept. I kind of get a feeling that this is a dystopian world more than a utopian one. People are said to be full of imagination and expecially children. The concept seems like everyones ability to think creatively is being hindered by something. You have people that can imagine everything they want if they are creative enough. You can create food, resources, computers etc. Instead of "mind money" why not have the entire persons worth based off how well they can create and that the protag is a loner because he doesn't need to trade with anyone else because he can already imagine everything he needs to. 

 

Honestly, I totally even didn't think about the minds of children. As for people being hindered by their own creativity - I think this is actually the case in real life. Anyone can truly create anything they imagine, but not everyone has the resources to. People can create rockets if they want to (see Elon Musk and SpaceX) but not everyone has the dough like selling PayPal to Ebay gives you. Another restriction is that you cannot change living things or create living things, because that would make things rather insane in the world (eg a mad person has a hallucination of a monster which materializes; one person hates another person so they imagine that their face turns into an onion etc.) But what about imagining something like a bomb? Well, people CAN imagine that. It's just illegal; the appropriate law enforcement dudes are around to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen. 

As for why the protag is a loner - that's a great idea. I don't want to make him a loner because he just doesn't need anyone else, though - this is probably much of where the focus of the visual novel is going to lie from a plot and characterisation point of view, because there's a lot of messages I want to convey about this particular issue. This part is something that I'll have to develop and I think there will be a substantive backstory for him being the way he is, because everybody gets to some place somehow.  

[laiktail]

IMO there's nothing wrong with using other people's ideas, as long as you try to use them consciously rather than subconsciously and build upon them rather than just taking them as-is. Plus odds are you aren't the first to come up with any ideas you might come up with yourself.

 

Great point. I think you're definitely right about not necessarily being the first to come up with ideas like this. And you're absolutely correct about building on previously existing ideas, since that's essentially how everything mankind has created is made. It gives me a solid excuse to watch it, too.

[Flutterz]

Great point. I think you're definitely right about not necessarily being the first to come up with ideas like this. And you're absolutely correct about building on previously existing ideas, since that's essentially how everything mankind has created is made. It gives me a solid excuse to watch it, too.

Great!

Also, it addresses the problems you mentioned in your other post, and you need to address those same problems in your own story lest you end up with gaping plot holes. What happens when children have that power, how is the restriction on changing life enforced, how WOULD you stop someone from imagining a bomb, etc.

[Life]

creating living things...It's like a restriction preventing the creation of homunculi. Another thing I'm wondering is if anyone "breaks" a law, how are they going to be apprehended. If they're just locked away, they can just imagine a way out.

[Clephas]

You are going to have to get really specific about how the abilities manifest, why some people can manifest some things and not others, etc.  To be blunt, this looks like a recipe for pure Hell on earth, if people can do it subconsciously (I've read a lot of books like that), and if there are restrictions, it looks like another version of the haves and have nots.  Writing in English, the community probably won't be as forgiving with you as they would be with a Japanese writer (no love goggles).

[laiktail]

@Life If it's a jail, that's easy enough to fix as a plot hole - 1. legalised stripping of the criminal's money, so they can no longer create. If I was passionate about this kind of topic, I'd probably expound on it further.

@Clephas Subconscious things won't manifest. Otherwise, the entire city would be absolutely destroyed at night, every single night. As far as the restrictions go: no, people aren't equal, so there would be some societal haves and have nots in the VN too. Making any one person too OP is boring (although SAO fans may say otherwise) and making them not OP enough is probably not going to be as interesting (although that's more characterisation having to shoulder more of the weight).

@everyone To be honest, the exposition will be explored a bit to answer some interesting questions about how things work in this world, but I'm won't be writing it as some gigantic super-detailed world with tons of rules and tons of unnecessary details to patch plot holes. Plot holes will be a problem only if they relate to the actual plot. I'll explore the world in a fair bit of detail because it'd be a shame not to - but, primarily, the focus will be on the characters more than anything else. And there are certain things they can take advantage of in this world, or are restricted by.

As much as I'd make the world as believable as possible (even though you need suspension of belief to conceptualise it), it's the characters which will ultimately drive the story and the world is actually an accessory to that (albeit an important accessory).

As you say, Clephas, the community may not be as forgiving with an English VN. I'll try my best though and I think it'll work out.

[Zodai]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I feel this has to be said.

 

Brandon Sanderson's first law of magic - An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

 

Simply put, if you want to solve a conflict with magic, the reader has to understand how the magic works.  More so if the one using it is a viewpoint character, as then you can't handwave it off - the reader is kind of in the user's viewpoint while the magic is being used.  Not much of a way around that.

 

Furthermore, we also have the second law.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-second-law/

 

Basically, limitations are more interesting than what the power can actually do.

 

There's also the third law, so I'll just leave that here.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-third-law-of-magic/

[laiktail]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I feel this has to be said.

 

Brandon Sanderson's first law of magic - An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

 

Simply put, if you want to solve a conflict with magic, the reader has to understand how the magic works.  More so if the one using it is a viewpoint character, as then you can't handwave it off - the reader is kind of in the user's viewpoint while the magic is being used.  Not much of a way around that.

 

Furthermore, we also have the second law.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-second-law/

 

Basically, limitations are more interesting than what the power can actually do.

 

There's also the third law, so I'll just leave that here.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-third-law-of-magic/

 

Amazing. Thank you for pointing all these things out I will absolutely be reading through these meticulously. It's actually pretty funny - I just had a quick browse then and I noticed this paragraph basically stated what I said (and this has got to be confirmation bias kicking in at its finest): 

 

"There are a lot of potential worldbuilding pitfalls a fantasy and science fiction writer can stumble into. One of these is making your story boring by overburdening it with too much expository worldbuilding. This, in turn, is often a symptom of a writer who spent years and years practicing worldbuilding—but not much practicing the actual craft of writing." 

 

Love the idea about limitations exceeding the powers. As for the first law you've said, the "magic" in the story can be succinctly boiled down to "if you think really hard about stuff then it will be created". So its actually quite simple - just, the connotations of this power are not simple. Despite this, I think the VN is going to be more light-hearted with serious moments rather than serious with light-hearted moments. 

Definitely going to re-read this. Thanks again!

 

[Flutterz]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I feel this has to be said.

 

Brandon Sanderson's first law of magic - An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

 

Simply put, if you want to solve a conflict with magic, the reader has to understand how the magic works.  More so if the one using it is a viewpoint character, as then you can't handwave it off - the reader is kind of in the user's viewpoint while the magic is being used.  Not much of a way around that.

 

Furthermore, we also have the second law.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-second-law/

 

Basically, limitations are more interesting than what the power can actually do.

 

There's also the third law, so I'll just leave that here.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-third-law-of-magic/

Really interesting read, thanks!

[Tenkuru]

This topic is getting really interesting! Another thing I though I should add, although it may not be very useful. I think that imagination is not infinite, it is actually limited by what we already know. For example, try drawing an animal that is totally unique to your imagination. You cannot create something that has a head of a cow and a body of a snake, because they already exist. Give it a shot. Also, think about these questions. How do you describe music to the deaf? How do you describe touch to those who can't feel? How do you describe color to the blind? Or actually, can you create a new color of your own? Here's a quote that I've seen somewhere:

"The human brain takes knowledge and recapitulates it, processes it but never does it create it."

[SanadaShadow]

Another thing to keep in mind is that reality is only as the beholder views it. Adding on to Tenkuru's point, we see the color "red" and we automatically register it as "red", because we were taught it was red. However, what if you were to look at it through someone else's eyes? What if you saw "green" where "red" used to be? That would mean even individuals perceive reality differently. We do not know yet how others see the world. We believe that people can lose their minds, but is it also possible to control it completely?

[laiktail]

This topic is getting really interesting! Another thing I though I should add, although it may not be very useful. I think that imagination is not infinite, it is actually limited by what we already know. For example, try drawing an animal that is totally unique to your imagination. You cannot create something that has a head of a cow and a body of a snake, because they already exist. Give it a shot. Also, think about these questions. How do you describe music to the deaf? How do you describe touch to those who can't feel? How do you describe color to the blind? Or actually, can you create a new color of your own? Here's a quote that I've seen somewhere:

"The human brain takes knowledge and recapitulates it, processes it but never does it create it."

 

That's interesting as! I think you've concisely captured a concept I had in the back of my head but couldn't articulate. You're right - in this world, we can only conceptualize what we can imagine which is pretty much based on what we've seen (or, rather, variations/combinations of what we've seen). So in that sense, nothing is ever "created". I'm totally going to use your last quote, by the way - that's so awesome. 

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that reality is only as the beholder views it. Adding on to Tenkuru's point, we see the color "red" and we automatically register it as "red", because we were taught it was red. However, what if you were to look at it through someone else's eyes? What if you saw "green" where "red" used to be? That would mean even individuals perceive reality differently. We do not know yet how others see the world. We believe that people can lose their minds, but is it also possible to control it completely?

 

Objective reality versus subjective reality - the topic of many mindscrews. The thing about something like color is that people don't see the same thing. They might see an object 'X' which is translated into their brain as 'X' as taught to every person by their teachers. So everyone refers to object 'X' as 'X', because that's the common consensus. If you see "green" where "red" used to be through someone else's eyes, then that person would in their mind still refer to these things as everyone else refers to them. So ultimately, the "green" that you see is something that you'll actually still call "red", because everyone else refers to that colour that way. Mindscrew /10. 

[SanadaShadow]

To further my own point, have you seen Saya No Uta? It's the perfect definition of what I just said. Everything has different sides to it. Despite that fact, most people see a monster and say "evil". Nobody sees a monster and says "good". The only reason the MC loves Saya is because he's been living in his own personal hell, and she's the only person he sees. This is a case similar to Stockholm Syndrome, where a person develops feelings for someone who kidnaps them. Except in this case, he's robbed of his own world and living in isolation, and the only one he acknowledges as a human is Saya, who is in fact not human.

[laiktail]

To further my own point, have you seen Saya No Uta? It's the perfect definition of what I just said. Everything has different sides to it. Despite that fact, most people see a monster and say "evil". Nobody sees a monster and says "good". The only reason the MC loves Saya is because he's been living in his own personal hell, and she's the only person he sees. This is a case similar to Stockholm Syndrome, where a person develops feelings for someone who kidnaps them. Except in this case, he's robbed of his own world and living in isolation, and the only one he acknowledges as a human is Saya, who is in fact not human.

 

Saya No Uta looks too gory for me! But the premise sounds interesting, I've always wondered what the story is about. You're right, everything has different sides to it. Great comparison between Stockholm and the plot in Saya No Uta. 

Just from reading Wikipedia, it sounds like the heroine is just some beast who is perceived as a beauty by the protag with serious mental health issues. So the perception is completely twisted. 

 

...I'm still not going to play the game though, especially after reading the sentence "He perceives the world as a hellish nightmare with a black sky and buildings covered in pulsating flesh, where all the streets and building interiors are splattered with blood, giant organs and cartilage." That sounds scary as hell.