How do you define "visual novels", "eroges" and "dating sims"?

[babiker]

@Babiker: If that's the case the dude doesn't know what he's talking about. Please stop taking youtube videos as deliverers of gospel truth.

LOL. what can i say? If anything they sound just as convincing as you guys. But of course the reason why I'm always taking my info from them is because, before discovering these forums (through a youtube video! )  they were where I discovered VN's, were i saw reviews, and to put it simply: if it hadn't been for youtube, i wouldn't know anything about VN's... so yea, I hold them in high regard

[Darklord Rooke]

LOL. what can i say? If anything they sound just as convincing as you guys. But of course the reason why I'm always taking my info from them is because, before discovering these forums (through a youtube video! )  they were where I discovered VN's, were i saw reviews, and to put it simply: if it hadn't been for youtube, i wouldn't know anything about VN's... so yea, I hold them in high regard

 

You're an intelligent man, use your own head. Eroge stands for erotic game, not erotic visual novel. Visual novel isn't even a category in Japan by the way. Lightning Raidy, for example, is an eroge and an RPG, but NOT a VN. So there goes point 1 for starters

 

EDIT: If you require a game NOT on VNDB to convince you, Demon Master Chris has so few VN elements not even VNDB will include it on the database. Yet it's still an eroge.

[babiker]

You're an intelligent man, use your own head. Eroge stands for erotic game, not erotic visual novel. Visual novel isn't even a category in Japan by the way. Lightning Raidy, for example, is an eroge and an RPG, but NOT a VN. So there goes point 1 for starters

EDIT: If you require a game NOT on VNDB to convince you, Demon Master Chris has so few VN elements not even VNDB will include it on the database. Yet it's still an eroge.

Hmmm, i see. Well, i suppose my incorrect statements were due to some slight ignorance in my part. Seriously though, with every knew post, i feel like i know less and less about the VN world...

PS: demon master chris is on vndb

 

EDIT:i only saw the link of the vndb page, i cant realy open it cuz for some stupid reason its blocked in my country

Edited June 28, 2014 by babiker

[Darklord Rooke]

PS: demon master chris is on vndb

 

Demon master chris has been deleted from the database

 

http://vndb.org/v13027

[Clephas]

PS: demon master chris is on vndb

No, it isn't.

 

Generally, Youtube isn't a reliable source for information at all.  It's worse than Wikipedia.  Also, after taking a look at his page... *sighs* 

 

I myself like attention, but at least I don't pretend to be an authority on matters I don't really have a good solid background in. 

 

One last thing.  You have to understand that VN is a term that is mostly used by game corporations as a name for the medium, rather than being a term used by the community in general like it is here.  It is an all-encompassing term for anything using the NVL or ADV storytelling modes over there. 

 

Generally speaking, dating sims are directed toward kids in their early teens, rather than to late-teens or adults.  That is why they are almost exclusively on portables... because there are very, very few PC gamers relative to the gaming population over there.  A lot of that is because the Japanese gaming companies aren't really the type to try to push the envelope beyond its limits when it comes to memory, processing, or graphics.  So, the importance of a modular gaming medium like the PC is relatively low there in comparison to here, where they frequently release games that are actually beyond the capacity of existing consoles to play to their fullest.  'Hunting games' like Monster Hunter are also big over there, because they can be effectively enjoyed with a portable's adhoc multiplayer or solo. 

 

Think about it... you hardly ever see a game in Japan that pushes completely past a console's limits like Skyrim did over here with the PS3 and 360  (anyone who played it long enough experienced those horrible slowdowns and freezes).  They basically look for ways to make things look good within the limits of the hardware, and it is much rarer to find games other than erotic ones made solely or first for the PC. They just have a different attitude toward game making in general.

[Nyanko]

I often see discussions about how correct a genre is for a game. A game could be released as an rpg, but can be more like a visual novel with a lot of gameplay or the other way around. In this case it depends either on your own experience or how much you look into the actual gameplay to get an idea of what to expect.

 

Like Rooke mentioned, I'm not too sure either if "visual novel" is actually a genre you find in Japanese stores. All the other "subgenres" we're always talking about just apply to other entertainment media too, like how "eroge" applies to all games. If you want to buy a game that is a " visual novel"  or "contains visual novel elements", and you go to wiki and read the definition they give for "visual novels" you've learned enough to know what to expect I guess. It depends on your own experiences if you think the description is good enough or not. It's really hard to define a genre that has so many different styles, so keep it simple: as long as people know what to expect it's a good enough description.

 

I honestly think people shouldn't think too hard about the meaning of a genre or subgenre. It's just a convenient way to give you an idea of what kind of media you're dealing with. If you really want to have a deep thought about it and form a definition that is correct for any possible product labeled as "visual novel", you could also discuss whether they can actually be called games, and wonder what games are and if they would fit in. Maybe they are more like digital books? I had this discussion a lot of times before, actually I saw people discussing this like a week ago, but I don't feel it is correct to say it is not a book or not a game.

 

 

[zoom909]

Dating sims are neither for kids (observe the ones with the Cero-D ratings) nor are they stuck in 2001 nor are they only for portables.

To cite an example, one of the best series, Dream C Club, is on both the 360 and PS3.  PS2 has Kimikiss, Amagami, and some other lesser known ones if you study its back catalog.

 

By the way, the bishoujo game genre includes another type of sim called "raising sim" where you help some girls reach their potential, and usually has some romantic implications as well

[Pabloc]

I think I already posted something similar, either here or on another forum, but whatever.

 

Visual Novel is a Western term for titles that belong to the Adventure Game (ADV) and Novel Game/Visual Novel (NVL) genres in Japan (since we already have a different genre called "Adventure Games" on the West, we simply adapted the latter term and use it more widely than it is used in Japan). It's a medium that uses novel-style writing and relies on visuals and sound as well to tell the story, and it's presented in two typical styles (ADV-style with textbox or NVL-style with text over whole screen). Some titles have branching plots and allow the reader to make choices at certain points (optional). Also, a pure VN cannot have any gameplay elements (except for choices). If it has those, it's a VN/[insert gameplay mechanics genre here] hybrid.

 

Simulation games, or SLG, is a Japanese genre of games with stats-based gameplay elements (nope, it has nothing to do with the Western genre - flight simulators and such). By choosing daily activities, you help either the protagonist or other characters increase his/their stats, and usually earn money to buy important stuff. Dating sims are a sub-genre of those, that are focused on protagonist improving his own stats to win the girl. Raising sims are another sub-genre, this time focused on "training" one or more other characters (where the protagonist usually takes the role of a trainer/mentor/whatever), with various goals (either Prnicess Maker style "raise a girl to be a perfect princess" ore more hentai~ish "train a girl to be a perfect sex-slave").

By the way, sims are NOT a sub-genre of bishoujo games (those are two different classifications - "sim" describes a gameplay mechanic, "bishoujo game" describes the cast).

 

Eroge is yet another classification. Unlike the previous two, it doesn't describe (storytelling/gameplay) mechanics, but the (sexual) content. If you really stick to the definition, it covers all games that have the smallest dose of ero. Even something like The Witcher would fit here, along with a crapton of random RPGMaker doujin ero games and whatnot. However, in practice, this term is usually used less literally, and is reserved for titles with high sexual content (so typical story-oriented titles with only a few H-scenes don't count). This makes mopre sense and is more common in the community, but technically, it's not wrong to label something like Fate/Stay Night as an eroge (though it IS wrong in case of Ever17 for example).

[Clephas]

Raising sims are actually a lot more common than dating sims.  At least part of that is the 'Hikari Genji' factor (for human-raising), or because it attracts people who like seeing things grow guided by their efforts (people who start out loving dungeon crawlers tend to fall into raising sims really easily, whereas people who prefer story-heavy jrpgs tend to head for the VN market, eventually, lol).  Also, it fulfills needs people are deliberately not satisfying in the modern age (having kids or pets) for various reasons. 

 

Well, that goes for video games in general, really.  Video games basically fulfill needs you can't fulfill in regular life or that you don't want to fulfill in daily life.  Shooters relieve stress related to violent impulses such as anger, hatred, and fear, for instance.  Eroge relieve sexual stress, for those who aren't in a relationship, aren't interested in prostitutes, and yet want to get their body's urges out of the way anyway.

 

The main reason gaming has become so common is because it can be adapted to relieve almost any type of stress.  Dating sims are dying because moege fulfill the needs dating sims once did far more effectively.

[Okami]

You're an intelligent man, use your own head. Eroge stands for erotic game, not erotic visual novel. Visual novel isn't even a category in Japan by the way. Lightning Raidy, for example, is an eroge and an RPG, but NOT a VN. So there goes point 1 for starters

 

EDIT: If you require a game NOT on VNDB to convince you, Demon Master Chris has so few VN elements not even VNDB will include it on the database. Yet it's still an eroge.

 

Actually neither Demon Master Chris nor Lightning Raidy are eroges they are both Nukiges.

 

@Babiker the reason why not all eroges are VNs is because they are Eroges that are JRPGs and Eroges that are VNs, true 90% are VNs.

[Clephas]

All nukige are eroge.  *rolls his eyes*

[Okami]

All nukige are eroge.  *rolls his eyes*

 

Nope they aren't.

 

Eroge are games that have H-content but story or/and gameplay are still more important and H-scenes are in there like some kind of bonus.

 

Nukige are games with main purpose of provaiding faping material and story and gameplay are only secondary.

 

I think you from all the people here should at least understand that.

[Guest]

Nope they aren't.

 

Eroge are games that have H-content but story or/and gameplay are still more important and H-scenes are in there like some kind of bonus.

 

Nukige are games with main purpose of provaiding faping material and story and gameplay are only secondary.

 

... yes they are. Eroge = ero + game ... --

[Nosebleed]

Nukige are just eroge with more fap material than story.

 

Someone should totally make a venn diagram to make this thread more systematized

[Okami]

Nukige are just eroge with more fap material than story.

 

Someone should totally make a venn diagram to make this thread more systematized

 

That would be like saying that JRPGs are still VNs just with more gameplay then story but exactly that fact that it has more gameplay then story is what makes them not VNs and JRPGs.

[Guest]

Nukige are just eroge with more fap material than story.

 

Someone should totally make a venn diagram to make this thread more systematized

 

We made a lexicon.

People should just search a little and if they disagree with some definitions, they should discuss them.

[Okami]

We made a lexicon.

People should just search a little and if they disagree with some definitions, they should discuss them.

 

People probably can't find it, I am here all the time and I still have no idea where it is.

[Nosebleed]

That would be like saying that JRPGs are still VNs just with more gameplay then story but exactly that fact that it has more gameplay then story is what makes them not VNs and JRPGs.

JRPG are not VNs because they have different elements that VNs would not have.

 

A nukige has the same elements as what you're considering an eroge has (fap material + story), except it has them in different proportions. That's all there is to it.

[Okami]

JRPG are not VNs because they have different elements that VNs would not have.

 

A nukige has the same elements as what you're considering an eroge has (fap material + story), except it has them in different proportions. That's all there is to it.

 

And what elements JRPGs have that VNs don't? If you are talking about gameplay there is plenty of VNs that have them so yea it's only a meter of  quantity witch is a same case here.

[Down]

People probably can't find it, I am here all the time and I still have no idea where it is.

Was curious because I missed it too, it's here.

Basically the project doesn't seem complete yet (there are still modifications to do from what I gather) and didn't get a lot of spotlight, probably mainly because I don't know where we would put it.

[Guest]

Was curious because I missed it too, it's here.

Basically the project doesn't seem complete yet (there are still modifications to do from what I gather) and didn't get a lot of spotlight, probably mainly because I don't know where we would put it.

There is a complete version on my last post (It has been for a couple months).

I still have the editing rights I beleive.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Guest

[Nosebleed]

And what elements JRPGs have that VNs don't? If you are talking about gameplay there is plenty of VNs that have them so yea it's only a meter of  quantity witch is a same case here.

A JRPG's goal is mostly for you to slay enemies and complete quests and level up skills, etc.

It might have some background story to the setting but that plays little role in your adventure and is by no means the focus of the game.

A VN is presented either in ADV or NVL style with possible gameplay elements that do not steer away from the narrative driven plot.

 

That's the main difference I would say. I thought I wouldn't need to explain this.

 

A nukige is, wether you like it or not, classified as an eroge (erotic game) since it has sexual content and story presented in ADV or NVL style. It just has more sexual content than story. But that doesn't make it a non eroge.

 

To make it more understandable:

All nukige are contained in the eroge category but not all eroge are nukige.

(Seriously someone make a venn diagram)

[Clephas]

Most rpgs don't use either the ADV or the NVL storytelling (also, they don't have tachie).  Exceptions like Disgaea exist... but Disgaea just intermittently uses an ADV mode rather than using it for all the storytelling. 

 

There are eroge that are VNs but not all eroge are VNs.  Nukige are all VNs and they are also all eroge.  'Nuki' is basically one of the many Japanese slang words for masturbation, and it was pasted to 'ge' which is the word for game.  It is a game whose sole purpose is to 'nuku' (masturbate) whereas there are many eroge that focus primarily on plot or characters. 

 

Many classic-style jrpgs use an ADV-style dialog box, but because they don't have the tachie (with rare exceptions) they can't be considered to be part-VN for the most part.  Really, it would be more correct to say that ADV-style text boxes evolved from jrpg text boxes and went in a completely different direction with it.  The Agarest series is considered a hybrid because it tells most of the story in VN-mode, with tachie and everything, if you want an example of a console hybrid. 

 

Like 'VN' 'eroge'  is an all-encompassing umbrella, whereas nukige are a sub-genre that falls under the aegis of both VNs and eroge.  As opposed to this, galge (non-ero romantic VNs) fall under VNs but not under eroge.  On the other side, Illusion's sex fantasy games would be considered eroge, but they can't be classified as VNs, because they don't utilize VN storytelling techniques.

 

'Moege' is another all-encompassing umbrella that takes in most of the galge genre, all of the charage and nakige genres, and a good chunk of the VN and eroge medium. 

 

Generally speaking, unless a type of game is put out in large enough numbers and is distinctive enough to be placed in its own category, you won't see an actual sub-genre name pop-up over there.  'Chuuni', for example, is a relatively rare type of VN, and because of that there really isn't a name for it over there, though when I mentioned my name for it, my Japanese friends nodded and laughed because they knew exactly what I was talking about.  Utsuge, which were more popular between 2001-2008 than they are now, were given their own name, because enough were put out during that period for them to 'earn' an independent classification.  Many utsuge are also chuuni (the early Nitroplus games were mostly utsuge, at least some of the time), but some fall into no other category and others even have enough moe in them to be considered part-moege and charage. 

 

Basically, it is one huge mess.  To an extent, people like me, who have experience with all of this shit, can give you some guidance, but a Venn diagram isn't going to do you any good, because none of this is set in stone permanently (as evidenced by the fact that galge is falling out of disuse as a term, as fewer and fewer romantic-leaning games are produced without erotic content in the VN style). 

 

However, the basic definitions for eroge, nukige, and VNs are basically correct.  You have to grasp that 'VN' is a term mostly used here, whereas it is only used over there by the actual corporations that own the companies that make them.  Understanding that a nukige is a genre, whereas eroge is basically a wide-encompassing umbrella term, is the most important thing you should draw out of my early statements.

[RusAnon]

Eroge are games that have H-content but story or/and gameplay are still more important and H-scenes are in there like some kind of bonus.

You have no fucking idea what are you talking about.

"Eroge" is game with 18+ content. Its as simple as that. No japanese source ever claimed that eroge has "story or/and gameplay are still more important", nor that eroge has to have any kind of story at all. 3D rape simulators by Illusion are staple of eroge, yet there's no "story" or "gameplay" at all in most of them.

There's even friggin huge wiki article which explains this in detail, please don't go around making up shit.

[Okami]

You have no fucking idea what are you talking about.

"Eroge" is game with 18+ content. Its as simple as that. No japanese source ever claimed that eroge has "story or/and gameplay are still more important", nor that eroge has to have any kind of story at all. 3D rape simulators by Illusion are staple of eroge, yet there's no "story" or "gameplay" at all in most of them.

There's even friggin huge wiki article which explains this in detail, please don't go around making up shit.

 

If it doesn't have a story then it is a Nukige, I do know what I am talking about, and there is no reason for you to be so rude.

Definition doesn't always cover for everything.