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Ashadow700

How do you define "visual novels", "eroges" and "dating sims"?

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Just a thought that struck me when was replying to another topic here of the forum; I have no idea what the actual how one actually defines what qualifies as a "visual novel", and where one draws the lines between what's a VN and eroges, dating sims and even rpg:s, to some extent.  :huh:

 

Couple of examples of what I talking about:

Fate/Stay Night. It has adult content, but I personally wouldn't call that an eroge in same way I would call something like Imouto Paradise an eroge.

 

Kamidori Alchemy Meister. It has both strategy-RPG gameplay and a very "visual novel-esk" story, so is that a "visual novel with rpg elements", or a "Strategy-rpg with visual novel elements"?

 

Pheonix write. What genre does this series even belong to? The "text based-mystery-adventure-visual novel-genre"?

 

I don't think what is and what isn't a VN really matters all that much, but it could fun speculating a bit about it anyway.

So, what do you guys think? How would you define what a "visual novel" is, and where would you draw the lines between it and other text-based games?  :)

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I'm pretty sure we've had this topic a while back, and as far as I remember the general consensus is that Visual Novel is the broadest term, simply referring to something that tells a story using text and graphics in a digital environment, an Eroge is a VN that has H-content and Dating Sim is a specific kind of Visual Novel which focuses a lot on min-maxing your characters stats, and where the stats determine your options in the VN. There are tons of other categories, one of which is Nukige which is an Eroge where the H is more important than the story, like Imouto Paradise for example.

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Phoenix Wright really isn't any of the three- they just put it on VNDB as an exception since it has some VN elements and it's very popular.

 

A Visual novel is an interactive fiction game, featuring mostly static graphics, most often using anime-style art or occasionally live-action stills (and sometimes video footage). They somewhat resemble mixed-media novels. Took this from google, btw.

 

Eroge is something a lot of people use to refer to visual novels as a whole (incorrectly, I believe), even the ones without erotic content. An eroge is technically an erotic game, I guess. Any VN with sexual contet counts as an Eroge.

 

A dating sim is, as the name suggests, a dating simulator. I believe you.... Well, simulate dating in one of them! A dating sim is not a visual novel, although it can have VN elements.

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Phoenix Wright is a textbook example of adventure. Adventure = Narrative + exploration + puzzles.

 

an Eroge is a VN that has H-content 

 

An eroge is any game that has H-content, it doesn't have to be a VN. A visual novel is a description of gameplay, eroge describes content. 

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I'm pretty sure we've had this topic a while back, and as far as I remember the general consensus is that Visual Novel is the broadest term, simply referring to something that tells a story using text and graphics in a digital environment, an Eroge is a VN that has H-content and Dating Sim is a specific kind of Visual Novel which focuses a lot on min-maxing your characters stats, and where the stats determine your options in the VN. There are tons of other categories, one of which is Nukige which is an Eroge where the H is more important than the story, like Imouto Paradise for example.

Oh, must have missed that it had already been brought up before. Oh well, I apologize about that.  :unsure:

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I agree with Kaguya. Eroge can be is a subset of Visual Novels but dating sims and visual novels are two separate things. While Eroge and VN's bring along some sort of story most of the time, dating sims are completely focused on simulating a date. With what I have heard from other people, dating sims also have stats that effect outcomes

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Oh, must have missed that it had already been brought up before. Oh well, I apologize about that.  :unsure:

No, it's fine. Pretty sure we've had this discussion at least 3 times already, and it will happen again. This sort of topic always shows up again and it tends to create some nice discussions.

 

I agree with Kaguya. Eroge can be a subset of Visual Novels.

I'm more inclined to agree with Rooke there- as you can see in my original post, I did say that eroge are technically games with erotic content. after all. Don't think they're only used for VNs.

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*cough* We made a lexicon *cough*

 

Dating Sim:

These are sub-varieties of sim (simulation) games based on romantic relationships. Dating sims include a gameplay element and often a skill set which allows you to raise specific stats to win over the different heroines.

 

Eroge:

Eroge are games that contain ero-content such as hentai, erotic descriptions, or hentai CGs. The term is commonly (and wrongly) used to refer to any kind of Visual Novel, including those having no ero-content.

 

Visual Novel (VN for Short):

Visual novels are interactive storytelling games.

Throughout a Visual novel, the player is presented with choices that may or may not alter the course of the story.They are commonly illustrated in an anime/manga art style

 

And yeah there was a smilar topic made a while ago...

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*cough* We made a lexicon *cough*

 

Dating Sim:

These are sub-varieties of sim (simulation) games based on romantic relationships. Dating sims include a gameplay element and often a skill set which allows you to raise specific stats to win over the different heroines.

 

Eroge:

Eroge are games that contain ero-content such as hentai, erotic descriptions, or hentai CGs. The term is commonly (and wrongly) used to refer to any kind of Visual Novel, including those having no ero-content.

 

Visual Novel (VN for Short):

Visual novels are interactive storytelling games.

Throughout a Visual novel, the player is presented with choices that may or may not alter the course of the story.They are commonly illustrated in an anime/manga art style

 

And yeah there was kind of the same kind of topic made a while back ...

Someone may want to fix that entry on Visual Novels on the lexicon, though- Kinetic Novels are a type of Visual Novels and there aren't any choices in those- this lexicon entry suggests that every VN has choices.

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Perhaps the biggest difference between a dating sim and a VN is mechanics.

 

In a dating sim, you usually have some kind of stats, where you literally build up a visible gauge for the heroines by buying them gifts, taking them on dates, saying random crap to them, etc.  There is a pretty good reason why these are almost extinct...

 

In a VN, the game is essentially telling a story, no matter how trite or disgusting it might be (nukige tending toward the latter and moege the former).  The player's intervention is minimal and generally restricted to limited choices that pop up at various points of the story.  It is also told in either the NVL manner (the one where the text is across the whole screen) or the ADV manner (where it is in a box at the bottom of the screen). 

 

An eroge is, quite simply, any video game where actual erotic content exists.  I know, it is frequently used as a byword for VNs, but that isn't really accurate.  Basically, if it has actual sex in it, it can be considered an eroge. 

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So i suppose what these definitions conclude is that every dating sim is a vn, but not every VN is a dating sim? I remember hearing something like that in a youtube video a while back( that im way too lazy to check on). The guy talked about all the words and definitions in quite a professional manner. I think he was called snowball?

Oh and yeah, theres also galgame, wich i suppose means dating sim?

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So i suppose what these definitions conclude is that every dating sim is a vn, but not every VN is a dating sim? I remember hearing something like that in a youtube video a while back( that im way too lazy to check on). The guy talked about all the words and definitions in quite a professional manner. I think he was called snowball?

Oh and yeah, theres also galgame, wich i suppose means dating sim?

No, this is not correct. VNs are not dating sims, and dating sims are not VNs. You could draw a venn diagram where there would be a small cross-section between the two but they are mostly separate.

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So i suppose what these definitions conclude is that every dating sim is a vn, but not every VN is a dating sim? I remember hearing something like that in a youtube video a while back( that im way too lazy to check on). The guy talked about all the words and definitions in quite a professional manner. I think he was called snowball?

Oh and yeah, theres also galgame, wich i suppose means dating sim?

I would say that dating sims and VN's are two different things. They may be presented in the same manner but the purpose of both are different and the way they go about their purpose is also different.

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Most dating sims don't tell a story, for one thing.  For another, most VNs don't bother with love-related stats.

 

The Social-links and personality stats in Persona 3 are a fairly good example of dating sim elements, for those that want one.

 

Though, like I said, dating sims are almost a dead medium, precisely because they are so obviously 'mechanical', which puts a lot of people off of them, even if they want a love-simulation.  Most of the people who want that kind of thing go for moege if they get into VNs, if only because they moved in to fill the niche dating sims failed to.

 

Edit: 'galge' is a near-dead Japanese term for non-ero romantic Visual Novels oriented towards a male audience.

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So i suppose what these definitions conclude is that every dating sim is a vn, but not every VN is a dating sim? 

 

Used in that context, a sim is a game where you manipulate stats to get a result. In the game Academagia (a magical school game), you study lessons and choose fields you want to specialise in which would up your stats in, for example, a number of different fields of magic or charm techniques. Then when you go on adventures, you can overcome obstacles depending on your stats in certain fields. A dating sim is a specific type of sim where the 'goal' of raising your stats is dating girls. It's nothing to do with VNs, unless you want to call Academagia a VN, and then someone like... oh say Clephas would probably want to murder you :P (Rooke jests). 

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Perhaps the biggest difference between a dating sim and a VN is mechanics.

 

In a dating sim, you usually have some kind of stats, where you literally build up a visible gauge for the heroines by buying them gifts, taking them on dates, saying random crap to them, etc.  There is a pretty good reason why these are almost extinct...

 

In a VN, the game is essentially telling a story, no matter how trite or disgusting it might be (nukige tending toward the latter and moege the former).  The player's intervention is minimal and generally restricted to limited choices that pop up at various points of the story.  It is also told in either the NVL manner (the one where the text is across the whole screen) or the ADV manner (where it is in a box at the bottom of the screen). 

Ah this makes sense. I didn't really know that dating sims relied so heavily on stats.

Although... you're saying that they are almost extinct, aren't they still moderately popular in Japan? Or I am just stuck in 2012?

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Ah this makes sense. I didn't really know that dating sims relied so heavily on stats.

Although... you're saying that they are almost extinct, aren't they still moderately popular in Japan? Or I am just stuck in 2012?

More like stuck in 2002. No, they're not popular at all in Japan anymore. They kind of never were all that popular, it's just that the rise of moege in the mid 2000s superseded dating sims for a large portion of its audience. People got more of what they wanted out of moege than they could out of dating sims. Turns out, people didn't want to work for their dates even in a video game. That's probably the best way to describe the difference between VN and dating sim without delving into mechanics. In a dating sim, the player has to work to earn the love of another. In a visual novel, they just read a story about love (if it is a romance VN).

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No, you are stuck in 2001.  Actual dating sims have been almost extinct except as a minor sub-genre of portable games (there are almost no PC dating sims made at all anymore) in Japan since around that time.  Illusion's games don't count, because they don't qualify as dating sims.

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No, you are stuck in 2001. Actual dating sims have been almost extinct except as a minor sub-genre of portable games (there are almost no PC dating sims made at all anymore) in Japan since around that time. Illusion's games don't count, because they don't qualify as dating sims.

Whow... I... need to learn to keep up with the times. But.. do you mind if I ask what about Love+? I had the impression that game had a pretty big following? Or is it a case of its popularity having been overstated just becuase of it... well, because it could be considerd a bit wierd?

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Oh, i must apoligise that i misquoted from the guys video. He said that:

1every galgame/eroge is a VN

2every VN is not neccasserily a galgame/eroge

Plus, he also states that there super populour in japan. Infact, every youtuber that talks about these games seems to bilieve this. ( including grarkda. See hes "the world god only knows review").

And heres the vid:

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Whow... I... need to learn to keep up with the times. But.. do you mind if I ask what about Love+? I had the impression that game had a pretty big following? Or is it a case of its popularity having been overstated just becuase of it... well, because it could be considerd a bit wierd?

 

Love+ is a DS game, observe what Clephas said about portable games.

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