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Translating: Is it ok to cut H scenes?


Okami

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Everything that you said was already been said so if you search true posts in this topic you will find answers to all of your arguments. If you have any new argument to add I will answer to it but if not, just search true posts here and you will find my answer or answer of people who share my opinion on the matter. I relly hate to repeat my self over and over again and I have been doing that all night long allredy. In your case about respect/disrespect crap for autors there have been like dosen arguments agenst it allredy.

Except I said VAs and Artists - not authors. At least bother reading posts, please.

 

If you're too lazy, TL;DR - It's okay if you don't want to translate the H-scenes. Just leave them in untranslated instead of taking them out completely.

 

It is very ironic that the people who try to argue that "translating a VN is disrespectful already, so don't complain about people removing H-scenes" are the very same people who encourage translation projects. Make up your minds?

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as i have already said in my long lecture about translating, its in no way wrong to do this. translations are made for two purposes: reaching a wider audience, and\or staying as loyal as possible to the original source. you can refer back to my post, as i also don't want to repeat myself.

 

I'm honestly surprised no one replied to my post, though i suppose i said so much i left most people who had the energy to read the hole thing speechless :D . or whas it something else?

Probably no one replied to your post because you are contradicting your own argument already.

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No he isn't.

1) "Translators should stay as loyal to the original source as possible."

2) "Taking out entire scenes is staying loyal to the original source."

 

I fail to see how those two statements go together, or how the second even holds true.

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1) "Translators should stay as loyal to the original source as possible."

2) "Taking out entire scenes is staying loyal to the original source."

 

I fail to see how those two statements go together, or how the second even holds true.

 

He said there are two methods of translating, neither of them wrong. You can either stay as close to the source as possible, or aim to reach as wide an audience as possible. He went on to explain that if you aim to make your work available to as wide an audience as possible, you may choose to remove such things. He said translators need to change the novel.

 

I'd recommend taking a deep breath and reading through it slowly before you rebut it. I don't care if you do, but I don't believe you read what he said.

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He said there are two methods of translating, neither of them wrong. You can either stay as close to the source as possible, or aim to reach as wide an audience as possible. He went on to explain that if you aim to make your work available to as wide an audience as possible, you may choose to remove such things. He said translators need to change the novel.

 

I'd recommend taking a deep breath and reading through it slowly before you rebut it. I don't care if you do, but I don't believe you read what he said.

In that case, I disagree. Translations are translations - we are converting the source language into something other people can understand, because you people are too lazy to learn Japanese.

 

if you aim to make your work available to as wide an audience as possible, you may choose to remove such things

That is no longer a translation; that is just modifying the game how you see fit. Some people will argue that translating a game is the exact same, but it is not. We are following guidelines - taking the exact same words of the original and converting them into a secondary language. 18+ games are 18歳未満禁止 for a reason. Even if you take out the H-scenes (even if you take out the 18+ material), under law, it is still an 18+ game. Unless you somehow get your modified work patented, you are distributing THEIR 18+ game to people not of age. Trying to distribute these games to minors is not any less illegal. Thus, your "trying to reach as wide an audience as possible" reasoning does not work.

 

Oh, and in case someone tries to say:

You translators are already basically committing a crime, so two or two-hundred more illegal deeds shouldn't hurt, right??

 

Wrong.

 

I honestly don't know what people are thinking when they try to use the "translating is already illegal, so it's okay to commit as many crimes as possible!" logic. You guys are just sending translators into a ditch to die by encouraging that. It's almost as if you couldn't care less about them, and instead blurt out anything that's convenient for you. The people I'm talking about are the ones who are benefiting the most from translations, while safely sitting behind their computer screens because they have nothing to worry about.

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I'm a busy person. I have no time to read walls of text. I took your paraphrasing at face value.

So you were too busy to read my post, but had the time to rebut it?... makes sense.

 

but anyway, so we can get somewhere in this argument, i do agree with you that taking out the h-scene would be changing the game, but that's just how the process of translating is. translating is literally changing; and its not just the language: jokes have to be changed to sound funny, sometimes entire pieces of the script have to be deleted, entire scenes, not just h-scenes, altered so they don't look too weird, out of context, or simply incomprehensible.

 

while i cannot give you a clear example of this when it comes to VN's, (as i have never translated one before) but I'll tell you something that happened to me: after watching all the Harry Potter movies, my brother bought all the novels in Arabic. i tried to read the fourth one, and the amount of alteration to the story was... quite a lot to say the least. the translator removed all, and i do say all the romance that was involved. why? because the western understanding of romance can be very insulting to many people in the middle east.

 

That's just one example, I'm sure if you asked experienced VN translators, they will tell you many such stories.

 

again: if you want the original so badly, there is no running away from learning the language.

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I'm of the opinion that anything is fine so long as you don't misrepresent yourself.  I tend not to like H-Scenes unless they are really bound up into the story(e.g.  Muv-Luv doesn't really need them, but School Days would need an extensive re-write to get around their absence), but they are easily skipped, so if I was translating, I'd keep them in for sake of completion.

 

Censorship is bad, but that's not what this discussion is about.  Censorship is suppression by an external agency.  If the exclusion of H-Scenes was mandated by the government, or by some other agency capable of enforcing such a decision, that would be censorship.  But someone that is actually doing the work deciding what does and doesn't go into the project is not censorship, but rather editing.  There is a difference.

 

Take, for example, the Star Wars prequels.  Some people liked them; a lot of people did not.   There are people that have gone to great effort to create their own edits of the movies to improve on the experience(at least in their eyes, anyway).  One such edit did as much as they could to greatly reduce the number of scenes that Jar-Jar was in.  That was not an act of censorship, because the creator of the edit was the one doing the work.  No one told him he had to(and if you just really like Jar-Jar, no one is telling you you have to watch it).

 

The thing is, in order to accomplish the goal of the OP, you have to do more than simply not translate.  You have to actually remove the scenes themselves, or you will still have an eroge, simply with some scenes still in Japanese.  So rather than censorship, this sort of effort would be more akin to the practice of game modification, a rather celebrated practice among PC gaming enthusiasts.

 

Of course, the important thing is that if you are going to modify a game(or a VN), it is vitally important that you label your project for what it is.  If I go to download a translation of Saya no Uta and end up with a version that cuts out all the gorn, I will have something completely different than what i was looking for(not to mention a remarkably short VN).  On the other hand, if I see an announcement for "Saya no Uta [ALL AGES CUT]," I'll know ahead of time that this is not the download I want.

 

I understand how some people wouldn't want this practice to become widespread, especially since translation groups are less likely to pick up a project that someone else already translated.  But aside from this being an improbable outcome, it isn't really anyone's call other than the people working on the project.  Trying to tell someone how to engage in their hobby is a good way to get them to stop sharing their results.  And as long as they're honest about their work, what does it really matter?

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Do what you want, no one forces you to translate or not, you can't satisfy everyone so just be happy with what you want to do and enjoy fact that there will be those satisfied of your work. :)

"Don't take anything personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering."

I don't think there is more needs to be said about this, although if you keep going to make this topic more popular and increase forums' traffic that is fine too...

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sometimes entire pieces of the script have to be deleted, entire scenes, not just h-scenes, altered so they don't look too weird, out of context, or simply incomprehensible.

You don't sound like you've ever translated a game before in your life. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Harry Potter movies, my brother bought all the novels in Arabic.

 

Apples and oranges - we are talking about visual novels. Fan translations, nonetheless. If the Arabic copy is licensed and sold, then they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

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The only thing I see in those two topics is a personal battlefield for a bunch of certain users, who try to enforce their views and opinions upon others, as if they would be the only right thing in the world.

 

The job of a translator is to translate; they are in no position to judge the work and decide how and what should actually be translated. VN translation in most of it's entirety, as it is now, is something people do in their free time. Therefore, I'd like to say this - if you don't like something, don't TL it; no one actually forces you to translate anything. Don't forget, that translating a book, or a story isn't translating for you own sake; it's mainly for the others. Don't say something along the words "I don't like the h-content in this vn, therefore I will not TL it.". Again, as a translator, you are in no position to decide about it. You either TL something, or do not. If you're planning to make a partial translation, you can as well stop already. No one's going to treat you seriously anyway.

 

Large part of this community is incredibly immature; topics like these wouldn't even appear otherwise.

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On the other hand, if I see an announcement for "Saya no Uta [ALL AGES CUT]

This is another issue that comes with selectively removing scenes. If you've read Saya no Uta, the H-scenes in it actually have a lot to do with the plot. The h-scenes themselves were an allegory to the game's message, which is revealed at the end of the game. By removing scenes, you are taking away from the game, and overstepping your bounds as a translator. Even in the case of H-scenes that you think are pointless - who are you to be the judge of that?

 

The job of a translator is to translate; they are in no position to judge the work and decide how and what should actually be translated.

Thank you.

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The only thing I see in those two topics is a personal battlefield for a bunch of certain users, who try to enforce their views and opinions upon others, as if they would be the only right thing in the world.

 

The job of a translator is to translate; they are in no position to judge the work and decide how and what should actually be translated. VN translation in most of it's entirety, as it is now, is something people do in their free time. Therefore, I'd like to say this - if you don't like something, don't TL it; no one actually forces you to translate anything. Don't forget, that translating a book, or a story isn't translating for you own sake; it's mainly for the others. Don't say something along the words "I don't like the h-content in this vn, therefore I will not TL it.". Again, as a translator, you are in no position to decide about it. You either TL something, or do not. If you're planning to make a partial translation, you can as well stop already. No one's going to treat you seriously anyway.

 

Large part of this community is incredibly immature; topics like these wouldn't even appear otherwise.

 

Unless you are getting paid for your efforts, being a translator is not a job at all.  It's a hobby.  And as a hobbyist, you are absolutely in a position to judge what and how you engage in your hobby.  It is easy to forget that while many unofficial translations are of professional quality, they are, in fact, the work of amateurs who are doing this on their own time.  The people doing this have no responsibility to translate a work at all, much less to do so to your liking or standards.

 

I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed in the way you chose to close your argument.  It is one thing to disagree with someone's argument.  It is altogether another to dismiss people who do not share your opinion as immature.  That is not the way to hold a civilized discussion.

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The only thing I see in those two topics is a personal battlefield for a bunch of certain users, who try to enforce their views and opinions upon others, as if they would be the only right thing in the world.

 

The job of a translator is to translate; they are in no position to judge the work and decide how and what should actually be translated. VN translation in most of it's entirety, as it is now, is something people do in their free time. Therefore, I'd like to say this - if you don't like something, don't TL it; no one actually forces you to translate anything. Don't forget, that translating a book, or a story isn't translating for you own sake; it's mainly for the others. Don't say something along the words "I don't like the h-content in this vn, therefore I will not TL it.". Again, as a translator, you are in no position to decide about it. You either TL something, or do not. If you're planning to make a partial translation, you can as well stop already. No one's going to treat you seriously anyway.

 

Large part of this community is incredibly immature; topics like these wouldn't even appear otherwise.

 

You make me feel so bad for having opinions *cri so much*

I guess i'll go sit in the corner of shame and immaturity then while you stand proudly amongst the mature and intellectual people.

 

If fan translating was actually a job maybe I'd agree with you, unfortunately ... no.

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The job of a translator is to translate; they are in no position to judge the work and decide how and what should actually be translated. 

 

Unless they consider they're job to localise, which is a special type of translation. Most VN translations localise to some extent, how far they take the localisation process is really up to them. This was what babiker was talking about when he was talking about translations targeting a wide audience. These get panned by certain fans who like things as close to the source as possible, but it really wouldn't be an issue if the fan-tl community were more accepting of the idea of multiple translations of each title.

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This is another issue that comes with selectively removing scenes. If you've read Saya no Uta, the H-scenes in it actually have a lot to do with the plot. The h-scenes themselves were an allegory to the game's message, which is revealed at the end of the game. By removing scenes, you are taking away from the game, and overstepping your bounds as a translator. Even in the case of H-scenes that you think are pointless - who are you to be the judge of that?

 

 

 

You may have noticed earlier in my post that I made mention of that very fact.  Some VNs would not be complete without their H-Scenes.  Sex is tied into the very core of the plot.  But the fact that you pointed that out invalidates your very argument.  You just looked at a VN that was briefly mentioned in a discussion and immediately were able to judge the sex as a vital part of the plot.  If you felt the justified in mentioning that, then it shouldn't be a huge logical leap to realize that other people are just as intelligent as you and can make the same judgement in the opposite direction.  

 

I don't think I'm blowing any minds by saying that some H-Scenes are not added in any way that is vital to their VNs plot.  Nor, for anyone that has read this thread, should it come as any surprise that there is a fairly large demographic of VN fans that feel that the same H-Scenes enhance the story's enjoyment regardless.  Since they are so easily skipped, I still feel that they should stay for those that like them.  But then, I'm not the one putting in the unpaid hours.

 

I'm repeating myself, but I do feel this is the most important point I can make:  amateur translators are not employees.  They certainly aren't your employees.  As the people deciding to make a hobby of translating, they - and only they - are the ones who decide what they wish to translate and how.  In deciding to translate something, one is making a judgement on what is and is not worth one's time.  In every step of translating, one is making judgements on how that translation is best conducted, what style of voice best fits a character, how best to re-tool jokes for a foreign audience(or if you are going to just translate them directly), etc.  

 

The decision to edit is just one step further.  Maybe that's a step too far for you, and that's fine.  But there entire communities devoted to fanedits of films.  There are even more devoted to modifying games.  There is nothing especially sacred about visual novels as a medium that makes the very idea of editing less a valid option than in other media.  Just as many people prefer the original films to fanedits, you are not in any way wrong for wanting unedited translations of VNs.

 

But that doesn't make you right about dictating what others should or should not do with their hobby.

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I can't treat seriously people, who step into the eroge-centered community and start to dismiss the erotic content and it's translation. You can have your opinions in that case, just refrain from voicing them openly and try to adapt to the rest.

 

A lot of people mixes translation with modification. Even if it's the creator, who modifies their own work, they typically do not do it because they thought their previous job on it was bad; they most often do it because of the pressure, that's put onto them, from various reasons. In a lot of the cases, it's the publishers or "fans" themselves, who force them to change certain things. I can only feel pity towards them, simply because they failed to remain true to themselves.

 

Translators are in no place to provide their own modifications to the work they are translating. Their only job is to translate the work and do it as best, as possible. Each translator has it's own way of translating, when it comes to both sharing the liberties of translation work and remaining as close to the original. If anything, those things should be discussed instead asking whether translators are authorized to cut the erotic content out of eroge.

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I can't treat seriously people, who step into the eroge-centered community and start to dismiss the erotic content and it's translation. You can have your opinions in that case, just refrain from voicing them openly and try to adapt to the rest.

 

 

 

Sure thing.  Any other opinions out there that so offend your world view as to make voicing them grounds for your disapproval?  I'd hate for you to have to confront people liking things you like for reasons other than your own.

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Translators are in no place to provide their own modifications to the work they are translating. Their only job is to translate the work and do it as best, as possible. 

 

It's a nice ideology. Then you enter the real world and find that stuff translated as closely as possible to the source material generally don't do as well as stuff that's been modified and localised. It's a valid translation technique, just not one readily accepted in the eroge community, but the eroge community tend to be a little fanatical.

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I can't treat seriously people, who step into the eroge-centered community and start to dismiss the erotic content and it's translation. You can have your opinions in that case, just refrain from voicing them openly and try to adapt to the rest.

 

I'll stop arguing after this post because it's becoming pointless and I'm too tempted to go off topic.

 

But sir, this is not an eroge centered community.

Please refer to the definition of a Visual Novel and you'll note that the definition of eroge and Visual Novels do not match.

 

Eroges are Visual Novels, however this is not reciprocal.

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Obviously this disscussion has become what i felt it was turning into: a question of what a translator should do and what he can do.

... Well i seriously think this now desserves a topic of its own, the only thing that was stopping me in the beginning was that i thought the awnser was clear: HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WHANTS

But its pretty clear there are people with other oppinions... Ah well i think i'll start that topic some time later... Very tired now.

And if someone else starts the topic, that would be much appretiated...zzzzz

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then it shouldn't be a huge logical leap to realize that other people are just as intelligent as you and can make the same judgement in the opposite direction.  

 

By removing these scenes, you are denying other people the opportunity to make that judgment. Regarding what you stated in the previous post, what is the different between that and censorship?

 

I don't think I'm blowing any minds by saying that some H-Scenes are not added in any way that is vital to their VNs plot.

 

Again, the only one who gets to decide that are the original creators. Unless they themselves state otherwise, then it is only fair to assume that there is some sort of significance in said scenes.

 

But that doesn't make you right about dictating what others should or should not do with their hobby.

 

I don't think people are entitled to the same amount of freedom when their 'hobby' is in fact, illegal.

 

It's a valid translation technique

Again, you are muddling the definition of a translator. Maybe it's time to consult a dictionary, because what you are describing is nowhere close to the definition of "translating." However, I do admit that localization is a key component that separates good translations from great translations. Where, though, does cutting out scenes fall under localization? Apparently, some people see that the removal of scenes is equivalent to the act of 'translating'. I guess for the sake of having a civilized debate, I will have to respect that viewpoint, but in the end, why not just give users a choice to skip H-scenes if they want to, instead of removing them completely?

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