Fuwa's state, a subective opinion.

[Darklord Rooke]

For example I as a straight male do not like yaoi at all, but if someone wished to make a thread that was yaoi based I could still respect their decision to do so. Of course I wouldn't go there myself, but I wouldn't slander the thread and the people who frequent it by openly calling it a garbage thread. There is a difference between forming an opinion of something and expressing it in a negative way. We must be careful that our negative opinions towards something don't become a prejudice that affects others because that is something that isn't okay regardless of moral codes.

 

This has now evolved into thread-bashing.

 

As for the AMA's I personally feel that they are more banter than introduction and would be better at home in a sub-forum under games and chatter.

 

Talk of Yaoi adheres to the purpose of the forum, so it's a matter of 'you'll have to tolerate it'. Spam does not adhere to the purpose of the forum, so it's perfectly acceptable to question its purpose.

 

As for the AMA, the PURPOSE of the AMA's is to better acquaint the forum with the individuals. Therefore it belongs in Introduce Yourself. It doesn't matter how much banter is in there, which is also present in the Introduction threads by the way.

[Jun Inoue]

... I usually skim the pages looking for progress . Not yours obviously, I just assume its stalled *shrugs*. As a person who does look for information, and has little patience (normally) for randomness, I don't usually go to yours. It's in G&C, it's got random talk in the title, that screams to me that it's no longer ongoing. I usually like to fish extra bits of information about the game or route out of the thread, but I can't. So I avoid it. Maybe I'm a freakish individual and am the only person in the world like this, but my gut says I'm not.

 

I have no idea why you won't separate the information out from the random banter, it's as if you want to make things difficult for everybody. As someone who's only after information, I gloss over it. The thread I mean. 

No, it's because the TL "team" is just a group of people doing it. There's no web of blog, there's no representative writting a weekly post that gets lost inside the spam.

If you made a complete thread for the status, it would still be empty of content. The TL was going to be done completely and the patch released without a single informative post, but some info was given due to the people on the random thread being curious about it and newcomers asking.

 

 

Talk of Yaoi adheres to the purpose of the forum, so it's a matter of 'you'll have to tolerate it'. Spam does not adhere to the purpose of the forum, so it's perfectly acceptable to question its purpose.

This is the difference, and this is what we tried to explain to maefdomn but didn't succeed. The randomness that is the eye of the complains is also the main reason some info is given about the project, because as random as the topics may be, it's still a group of fans supporting the translation, welcoming any new members, and giving out any information that's known.

[Darklord Rooke]

No, it's because the TL "team" is just a group of people doing it. There's no web of blog, there's no representative writting a weekly post that gets lost inside the spam.

If you made a complete thread for the status, it would still be empty of content. The TL was going to be done completely and the patch released without a single informative post, but some info was given due to the people on the random thread being curious about it and newcomers asking.

 

This is the difference, and this is what we tried to explain to maefdomn but didn't succeed. The randomness that is the eye of the complains is also the main reason some info is given about the project, because as random as the topics may be, it's still a group of fans supporting the translation, welcoming any new members, and giving out any information that's known.

 

The way I understand it, the thread was created for the purpose of asking about the Majikoi route. Someone wanted information about the Majikoi route, that the team did or did not have to reply to. This doesn't give you license to derail the thread with utter randomness once a question has been answered. If the team wants a randomness thread, create your own thread, call it the 'Majikoi team's thread of complete and utter randomness. We are active, and on Fuwa, just in case you're curious,' but that thread had a purpose, it was for information about Majikoi, people who wanted information about Majikoi may want to READ THROUGH THE THREAD for past answers, but now the purpose of that thread has been completely annihilated.

[Jun Inoue]

The way I understand it, the thread was created for the purpose of asking about the Majikoi route. Someone wanted information about the Majikoi route, that the team did or did not have to reply to. This doesn't give you license to derail the thread with utter randomness once a question has been answered. If the team wants a randomness thread, create your own thread, call it the 'Majikoi team's thread of complete and utter randomness. We are active, and on Fuwa, just in case you're curious,' but that thread had a purpose, it was for information about Majikoi, people who wanted information about Majikoi may want to READ THROUGH THE THREAD for past answers, but now the purpose of that thread has been completely annihilated.

Considering that some of the members of the team I see around are Ouraibaa and myself, I do believe that the thread does have a supporting role to encourage work on the project.

But well, maybe you do know what Ouraibaa actually feels, and what I truly think better than ourselves.

[Seath]

Talk of Yaoi adheres to the purpose of the forum, so it's a matter of 'you'll have to tolerate it'. Spam does not adhere to the purpose of the forum, so it's perfectly acceptable to question its purpose.

 

As for the AMA, the PURPOSE of the AMA's is to better acquaint the forum with the individuals. Therefore it belongs in Introduce Yourself. It doesn't matter how much banter is in there, which is also present in the Introduction threads by the way.

The example and scenario I used was entirely rhetorical. It was a roundabout effort to explain why it isn't ok to go around bashing things that others enjoy simply because you don't.

 

Regardless of whether or not yaoi is tolerated, Insulting and antagonizing others is still against forum rules isn't it?

 

You also haven't offered a very good explanation for why the Miyako thread is a detriment to Fuwanovel other than the fact that you find it inconvenient and have a personal bias.

[Darklord Rooke]

The example and scenario I used was entirely rhetorical. It was a roundabout effort to explain why it isn't ok to go around bashing things that others enjoy simply because you don't.

 

Regardless of whether or not yaoi is tolerated, Insulting and antagonizing others is still against forum rules isn't it?

 

You also haven't offered a very good explanation for why the Miyako thread is a detriment to Fuwanovel other than the fact that you find it inconvenient and have a personal bias.

 

If it doesn't add anything to the forum, it's value can definitely be questioned by the community. Maef didn't post anything antagonistic, I've been far more antagonistic than he has. He's actually a pretty decent guy, me... not so much. Furthermore, the Majikoi thread is full of off-topic responses which is against the rules. EXPLICITLY against the rules. The mods should have taken action long ago, and sticking a 'AKA random talk' doesn't solve the problem.

[Seath]

If it doesn't add anything to the forum, it's value can definitely be questioned by the community. Maef didn't post anything antagonistic, I've been far more antagonistic than he has. He's actually a pretty decent guy, me... not so much. Furthermore, the Majikoi thread is full of off-topic responses which is against the rules. EXPLICITLY against the rules. The mods should have taken action long ago, and sticking a 'AKA random talk' doesn't solve the problem.

Yet it was the mods who decided to make it a random talk thread.

 

It seems to me that any thread dubbed random talk can do nothing but stay on topic, as such it is "following the rules".

 

This thread ceased being constructive critque long ago. What is happening now is thread-bashing a.k.a antagonizing.

 

If something doesn't deserve to exist simply because it serves no greater purpose why not simply get rid of the games and chatter sub-forum entirely seeing as how.

 

If it doesn't add anything to the forum, it's value can definitely be questioned by the community.

[Darklord Rooke]

Yet it was the mods who decided to make it a random talk thread.

 

It seems to me that any thread dubbed random talk can do nothing but stay on topic, as such it is "following the rules".

 

This thread ceased being constructive critque long ago. What is happening now is thread-bashing a.k.a antagonizing.

 

If something doesn't deserve to exist simply because it serves no greater purpose why not simply get rid of the games and chatter sub-forum entirely seeing as how.

 

Too bad they DIDN'T actually make it a random talk thread, as can be seen by the title, and the opening post. I'm more pissed at the mods than I am pissed at you guys, don't worry. I think Fuwa's drifting, it has lost direction and purpose and it's just becoming a place to chat and hang out. It was supposed to be much more, and let's just say I wish Tay all the best and wish him all the best in his life but I miss him and his driving force. As I miss Nay, Mayumi, and Aaeru. 

 

And concerning G&C: You say that like that opinion has never been reached before.

[Zakamutt]

Afaik main reason we let the majikoi thread stay in the fan tl forum for so long was out of respect for project members / tl projects in general... but I can agree it should probably have been moved much earlier. Just saying it's a special case due to politics. The current name is also likely to be due to politics.

 

G&C theads adding anything to the forum is certainly worth thinking about; what you need to prove - well, convince people about - is that it harms the forum. Personally, I think removing threads in G&C, or G&C itself, would create forum unrest, and god knows we don't need drama. Basically, keeping them will not reduce quality (as you don't have to visit G&C, and it doesn't even show up in new posts etc), while removing them is potentially harmful. I think I just said the same thing twice, oh well.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Zakamutt

[Guest]

I'm not entirely sure what this thread is asking for. Site projects are things that are dependent upon members initiative in undergoing them, I'm not entirely sure what Fuwanovel can do as a website itself other than make visual novels actually available outside of japan. 

 

This thread is asking for discussion. And isn't that objective good enough ?

 

 

Okay there seems to have been some missunderstandings.

 

First of all I do not wish to turn fuwa into some kind restricted elitist community.

If that is what you believe then you missed the point.

 

Not once have I criticized Fuwa's friendly atmosphere. I think it's great that most of the people on the forum are friendly and are able to have fun together. G&C is filled with fun threads where people can fool around and play all sorts of games. Am I saying no to jokes in other threads then ? No ! Of course not, I'd be one hell of an hypocrit had I been saying that.

Keep the friendly atmosphere please.

 

And no ! I am not attacking members who come here in order to relax, have a good time and eventually talk about Visual Novels.

Visual Novels are our common interest, some want to talk a lot about it, some less and there is absolutely no reason that anybody who shares this common interest to be unable to share, discuss and profit of the nice haven that fuwa is.

 

What I would like is making things change, move, evolve and develop.

And all I did for now is pointing it out. Nothing is happening and status quo's aren't good.

 

 

As for the Majikoi thing, I'm not going to talk about it. You guys are way to defensive given the fact that I mentionned it as an example and that it wasn't even the point of my thread.

[Narcosis]

Regarding moderation and rulesets versus random spam and thread derailing - such posts are often like those little yellow flowers, that grow on your lawn. One or two look nice and definately add to the atmosphere, but if you won't do something with them fast, soon there's going to be thousands of them growing everywhere around. Spam only attracts more spam; posts without any actual merit should be removed, since they are like cancer.

 

I think these forums became way too lax in terms of moderation and rulesets. There's too much breeding ground for nonsense and when one does see he's allowed to post in a whimsical kind of fashion, others start to do it as well. I have nothing against "friendliness", but note that it does not always go along with being substantial on internet message boards; It's very easy to derail preety much anything. People should remember, there are no real friends in people you randomly meet over internet - only users, who share their interests. Getting overly friendly with everyone around often leads to dissaray. There's a big difference between being "open", "welcoming" and "matey", where people simply pat themselves on the back all the time. In that way, a lot of people sense that loose atmosphere and get the wrong impression they are allowed to do anything they want, while that shouldn't be the case.

 

Forums like these should always try to remain neutral and it's the job of the moderation team to keep everything in order.

[Seath]

And concerning G&C: You say that like that opinion has never been reached before.

I say it sarcastically because I can't see how anyone would believe that making the forums 100% serious would be a very popular or well received notion.

 

Regarding moderation and rulesets versus random spam and thread derailing - such posts are often like those little yellow flowers, that grow on your lawn. One or two look nice and definately add to the atmosphere, but if you won't do something with them fast, soon there's going to be thousands of them growing everywhere around. Spam only attracts more spam; posts without any actual merit should be removed, since they are like cancer.

 

I think these forums became way too lax in terms of moderation and rulesets. There's too much breeding ground for nonsense and when one does see he's allowed to post in a whimsical kind of fashion, others start to do it as well. I have nothing against "friendliness", but note that it does not always go along with being substantial on internet message boards; It's very easy to derail preety much anything. People should remember, there are no real friends in people you randomly meet over internet - only users, who share their interests. Getting overly friendly with everyone around often leads to dissaray. There's a big difference between being "open", "welcoming" and "matey", where people simply pat themselves on the back all the time. In that way, a lot of people sense that loose atmosphere and get the wrong impression they are allowed to do anything they want, while that shouldn't be the case.

 

Forums like these should always try to remain neutral and it's the job of the moderation team to keep everything in order.

Last time I checked this forum still had its rules and moderators in place in order to prevent and keep spam in check. You give them far too little credit, it is one thing to say it can be done better, but it is another to try and put yourself in their shoes. There is no possibility of spam running rampant on serious topics while mods are in place to prevent it, that is just unnecessary fear mongering.

[Down]

First things first, my personal opinion (not as a staff member) is that I agree with most of what maefdomn said in his two posts.

 

Now to address a few things.

 

*The abandon of the fuwa projects: this was not due to "internal drama". We all agreed on the direction we wanted to take, but we couldn't. Because of legal issues and issues with people outside the forum. A lot of shit happened really fast, and somehow at the end Fuwanovel still existed and everything went back as it was before - with no advancement made and Tay no longer able to take care of his projects for various reasons. I won't disclose more, it's personal stuff and it's a thing of the past - not interesting to dwell on it.

 

Anyway, with the instigator of the projects unavailable and some motivation loss from the staff due to these events, things have stagnated. If there are people willing too, and with Tay being progressively back, there's no reason it will stay this way.

 

*Lack of moderation, spam, G&C: we discussed this internally too already. The Fuwa policy have always been minimal moderation. If some of you think it's not enough, we'll think about it, but I don't think there's that much spam out of G&C (we'll pass on mistakes like the Majikoi thread growing out of proportion), and G&C will probably stay the way it is. Again, I personally agree with Maefdomn and there's no reason silly fun and serious discussion can't coexist in the same forum if they are in separated sub-forums. I think the essence of the post is "we have fun, why don't we do more than just that and also make interesting projects and have more constructed discussions".

[Jun Inoue]

Regarding moderation and rulesets versus random spam and thread derailing - such posts are often like those little yellow flowers, that grow on your lawn. One or two look nice and definately add to the atmosphere, but if you won't do something with them fast, soon there's going to be thousands of them growing everywhere around. Spam only attracts more spam; posts without any actual merit should be removed, since they are like cancer.

 

I think these forums became way too lax in terms of moderation and rulesets. There's too much breeding ground for nonsense and when one does see he's allowed to post in a whimsical kind of fashion, others start to do it as well. I have nothing against "friendliness", but note that it does not always go along with being substantial on internet message boards; It's very easy to derail preety much anything. People should remember, there are no real friends in people you randomly meet over internet - only users, who share their interests. Getting overly friendly with everyone around often leads to dissaray. There's a big difference between being "open", "welcoming" and "matey", where people simply pat themselves on the back all the time. In that way, a lot of people sense that loose atmosphere and get the wrong impression they are allowed to do anything they want, while that shouldn't be the case.

 

Forums like these should always try to remain neutral and it's the job of the moderation team to keep everything in order.

Seriously? Like, really, seriously? So now we'll need to be ever vigilant that noone makes any threads or posts without merit on the Games and Chatter discussion? Or, better said, we'll need to prevent the Chatter sub-forum from having any chatter?

People won't be able to have fun on a sub-forum that it's there precisely for that, and where posts don't count for your profile because "posts without any actual merit should be removed, since they are like cancer."? That's so extremely nuts...

 

If you think that the Games and Chatter sub-forum degrades the rest of the forum, you need to think about this more deeply.

[Narcosis]

If you want to have fun, take it onto the IRC, TS or anywhere else. Period. Forums aren't meant for chatter; they are for constructive discussion. In that way, a lot of things that happen inside the G&C sub-forums affect the overall atmosphere on the rest of the forum; the way people get accustomed to reply or cope with various topics that appear within the discussions. I've seen a lot of threads derailing in an instant without control just because someone got way too comfortable around.

 

What I'm writing, isn't any sort of "fear mongering". I couldn't care less for Fuwanovel, nor it's community in general; people are getting the wrong impression, if they think otherwise; yet I'm here again to simply lend a helping hand to certain people, share knowledge and have an eye on you guys. Being overly strict is as bad as being too lax, but it's always better to be more strict, rather than lax in overall.

 

If things would be fine the way they were, no one would even create such topics in the first place.

[solidbatman]

Here is what it comes down to everyone. The Fuwanovel staff is still working on finding a balance between letting people have fun, and being a place for constructive discussion. When Aaeru began Fuwanovel, I don't believe she ever expected it to become as big and as popular as it did, so many of the guidelines for the staff are pretty outdated. 

 

Fuwanovel should absolutely be a place where you have some fun. It isn't like there is all that much VN discussion to go around with how little the western market sees. That said, we really want to make sure topics are useful, and especially on topic without being derailed (as I've seen some complaints popping up about that). We don't want to become too strict and stifle what you guys have come to enjoy though. Because the staff has allowed everyone to become accustom to the old way of doing things here, it makes it difficult to change things up without upsetting a significant portion of the user base. 

 

The staff is still working on some changes to the rules and the way they moderate to hopefully remedy some of the complaints I'm seeing in this thread. For now though, please bear with the staff as the new system is ironed out and more specifics are drawn up. Just keep in mind though, Fuwanovel will not lose what makes it different from the rest of the VN community. Fuwanovel will remain a friendly, welcoming place to VN enthusiasts of all levels; from new to veteran. 

I want to think Maef for posting this thread despite the negative outlook of Fuwanovel. It has allowed the staff to get an insight into what the members actually think of the forums right now and will allow the staff to better draw up a new set of rules for moderation. 

 

I will now be closing this thread. If you still wish to discuss this thread, you may do so by messaging the staff and talking with them.