Are routes necessary?

[InvertMouse]

This question is related to visual novels, but can be related to many other media forms as well.

To be honest, this question came to my mind while I've been developing an indie game. It's not a visual novel, but it does have different endings. I was influenced by games like Mass Effect, where your choices are reflected throughout the adventure. Is it necessary, though?

I admit I'm asking this to myself partly because I can be lazy sometimes and would rather not have to develop multiple endings. However, there is a point to this. If the writer focused on writing the best single plot possible, maybe the result will be more fantastic than all the split routes combined.

For those who have played Mass Effect, imagine if the game was linear but still had the depth with all those galactic races, etc. Would you like the game far less? I certainly think I would still enjoy the story quite a lot.

Then, I'm thinking of visual novels. Planetarian is far from my favorite title, but it worked out fine without multiple endings. I enjoyed Narcissu 1 and Side2nd immensely, and both of those are linear experiences. Utawarerumono comes to mind as well. That was another game I loved, and in the end, you can really only end up with Eruru, even though, well, you get H-scenes with just about all the ladies.

I've brought up realism in VNs during a different topic, and it applies here as well. When there's only one path, then the adventure felt real. I can say, "Yeah, Guy A ended up with Girl D.", and every other person who had experienced the game would agree.

Thanks people. Hoping to hear some thoughts .

[Guest]

Yeah I think it's totally fine.

Mahoyo also had one story only, and that was very effective too.

they market the no-route stories as kinetic novels. chunsoft has been doing them since the time I was born.

[torbin12]

I, personally, love the different routes, I mean, I can understand the point behind a single ending/single route/etc. as I have read many books, and most regular books are, for the most part, built on the 'single ending' premise, they are just read from a different type of perspective, but since I have always placed myself in the position of protagonist (in my own imagination), they seem to be along the same premise to me, and I have really enjoyed many of the books I have read, but I feel I gain more enjoyment if it seems like my own choices dictate where the story ends up, almost as if I were writing the story myself. So, in my own opinion, while I understand that others enjoy it otherwise, for me, a VN not having routes or being single ending can turn me off of it.

As to why I always 'first-person' books, vn's, media, games, etc. I don't know, that is just the way it has been as long as I can remember.

[solidbatman]

Multiple routes, if done correctly, is a great thing. Sadly, in most modern games (not VNs), the ultimate ending will not change, just the details of the ending. Walking Dead is a fine example of this. The ending itself is the same for everyone, but how you get there is very different. I think Fallout New Vegas might be one of the only games to have multiple endings that vary widely. So while it isn't necessary, it can add a lot more to a game, it's just outside of VNs, very few games have true multiple routes.

[Steve]

Wait a moment, mass effect has multiple endings!?!?!?

for me it was a game that would on vndb had tags "meaningless choices" and "lots of choices" and "single ending", because I don't count changing colors of explosion a different ending, any choices I made throughout the 3 games didn't have any impact on the ending at all, I could have saved council, I could have kept collector base but in the end it didn't change anything.

A game that is a little close to how visual novels can tell multiple stories might be Witcher 2, you make a decision at a certain point and the game is completely different, in different zones etc, so there are basically 2 routes in there. That is meaningful choice, not what they offer in other games.

Some games at least offer you a decision close to the ending, whether it is like in KOTOR 1, or only a button press like in Deus Ex, but what I would like to see are decisions in games that change the game in half and then offer you another 10 or 15 hours of unique story for each decision, just like VNs do.

And as for linear plot, why not, there is tons of games like that already, just look at most of the games in last 5 years or so, it is linear plot with cutscenes and other cinematics. What we are lacking is game with meaningfull choices, not just offer illusion of choice like games often do.

As for visual novels, I like kinetic novels too (planetarian, rin ga utau etc), they are awesome but they are different from multiple route VNs, the way they feel is different and that's why it is good to have both, choosing a girl isn't just about wanting to romance her, it is trying to explore and investigate her world, her problems and experience an unique story with her, its very much about the character development inside and then you see how she changes or how even the protagonist changes.

That's why in the Kinetic Novels I played there is only 1 heroine you, because it would be extremely hard to explore the character of multiple heroines in linear story, what would you do, break up with the previous one? Or just not be as close to her and still help her, but then you wouldn't see so much inside her.

If you played Hoshimemo, imagine Mokoko (komomo ;P) route like that, how would you solve her problem without making her dere from tsun first.

Or in little busters how would you solve Mio's problem without getting this close to her.

There certainly is a possibility to do this but I think this replaying the game for unique story not affected by the endings of previous stories works very well and for linear stories, single heroine works the best.

[Kygrykhon]

I think of VNs with routes and multiple endings as a package of different stories in one bundle. It's better to have more than less, isn't it? Well, if it affects quality of the story then I'll go for quality.

That being said, I also enjoy VNs like Planetarian which have no routes nor choices, since it's simply like enjoying a good book being storytold (is that a word?). And I can't help but fail to choose the right choice for any game at least twice, then get a bad ending twice. Just a personal grudge.

[InvertMouse]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys! Your opinions were all interesting to read.

Haha, steverowland, fair enough about your comment on Mass Effect. I was actually pleased with the Extended Cut DLC, though. The earlier choices made no impact. However, the three choices did indeed feel different and influential. Yeah, KOTOR was amazing in terms of making your choices matter. That image you posted really sums up how I have been feeling about games these days.

Well, torbin12, roleplaying does help get you involved in the game a lot more! I do that when I'm playing Mass Effect B).

Solidbatman, that is true. I guess it's because if the routes diverse too greatly, it means most gamers will miss huge parts of the content, which feels really unfortunate when you're thinking from the developer's point of view.

Aaeru, I only heard about chunsoft after 999 on the DS. Oh, right, I remember now. Those are called kinetic novels. Maybe I should check out a few more of them.

[Steve]

I like these topics, I'm looking forward to your next "Is [...............] necessary" topic

[Supah Kawaii Weeaboo]

My first experiences with kinetic novels were around 2005, right around the time when Insani started translating freeware VNs. They were refreshingly different: no harem, no obligatory sex scenes, and little to no padding. When it's clear from the beginning that a product is a kinetic novel, that changes the reader's expectations. There is presumably no bonus content or hidden endings. A KN has almost no game-like qualities, but instead becomes linear fiction, thus drawing better comparisons to prose, comics, film, and theater.

I like these topics, I'm looking forward to your next "Is [...............] necessary" topic :)/>/>

* Are graphics necessary? (Freeware visual novels such as Digital: A Love Story, and The World to Reverse, suggest the answer can be "no.")

* Are words necessary? (It's entirely possible to present a story through visuals, such as the collage novel A Week of Kindness, or the comics series Gon. Music and spoken dialogue can help. This is all rather avant-garde, and unfortunately I don't know any examples.)

* Is audio necessary? (Maybe silence is better...)

* Is a computer, console, or similar device necessary? (If you use just paper, then is the product automatically considered a gamebook?)

[Steve]

* Are graphics necessary? (Freeware visual novels such as Digital: A Love Story, and The World to Reverse, suggest the answer can be "no.")

* Are words necessary? (It's entirely possible to present a story through visuals, such as the collage novel A Week of Kindness, or the comics series Gon. Music and spoken dialogue can help. This is all rather avant-garde, and unfortunately I don't know any examples.)

* Is audio necessary? (Maybe silence is better...)

* Is a computer, console, or similar device necessary? (If you use just paper, then is the product automatically considered a gamebook?)

excellent topics, however I will wait till invertmouse posts those in separate topics, because I have so much to say about even these that it would end up as multi-page essay if I were to talk about all of them xD

[Kygrykhon]

Hearing possibilities of "Are [...........] necessary?" topics makes me realize that the term "Visual Novel" might have potential to become a broad genre. Hope I'm still alive (and have free time) to see that coming.

Love for VN : +7

[InvertMouse]

Thanks steverowland! I'm asking these questions partly because they help me with my indie game development endeavors, so you guys are helping me out a great deal as well. Glad we're all enjoying the discussion.

Supah Kawaii Weeaboo, well, Narcissu was an attempt at using minimal graphics. The characters rarely showed their faces, and the background resolution was small as well. However, as the games gone by, Side2nd, 3rd, then the PSP game, the image dimensions steadily increased until it went back to taking up the entire screen. Characters also showed their faces more often. Assuming those were choices made based on players' feedback, does that mean we need images in our visual novels after all?

Wait, this might not be the thread to talk about this XD. Sure, I'll be happy to bring up these weekly questions .

Kygrykhon, you're right; there's plenty to discuss with VN's design choices. That's how our craft will evolve B).

[solidbatman]

I'm looking forward to the next "Is it necessary" posts. I love discussing things like this.

[harry_kinomoto]

I like these topics, I'm looking forward to your next "Is [...............] necessary" topic :)/>/>/>/>/>

* Are graphics necessary? (Freeware visual novels such as Digital: A Love Story, and The World to Reverse, suggest the answer can be "no.")

* Are words necessary? (It's entirely possible to present a story through visuals, such as the collage novel A Week of Kindness, or the comics series Gon. Music and spoken dialogue can help. This is all rather avant-garde, and unfortunately I don't know any examples.)

* Is audio necessary? (Maybe silence is better...)

* Is a computer, console, or similar device necessary? (If you use just paper, then is the product automatically considered a gamebook?)

As much as its fun to push the boundaries and experiment, I'd caution against becoming one of those people who end up experimenting JUST for the sake of experimenting - just because they're trying to make a show of being adventurous, or different. imo any experiment you undertake must promise the possibility of shedding new light on whatever you are experimenting on. It most art that is how best to create something beautiful, wonderful, and perfect. Of course, if you consider your own experiment of how adventurous and different you can be as being beautiful, wonderful and perfect, then that's perhaps another matter altogether ....

So someone asked: is audio necessary? Well, check this out~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E

[Steve]

As much as its fun to push the boundaries and experiment, I'd caution against becoming one of those people who end up experimenting JUST for the sake of experimenting

Well that's why we have these topics, to see whether it is a good idea, just like with routes and romance, that is what for me defines VNs as I like them, it can be done without it and I can still enjoy it but it must be much better in what it does have when it decides to take away the part I like.

So if I take the example in ever 17 and its non-romance route, it was awesome (actually I dunno if there are more in that game, I havent finished the game yet), but then I can take something much simpler, easier to write with not so much depth as e17, like the vocaloid VN and it's Rin story, If you look at my votes, I rate those as the same "enjoyance" value (and that is how I make rating, I don't take some technical facts into consideration, I just take how much I've enjoyed it and that way I make the vote), the Rin story was something I so much wanted, it gave me exactly what I wished for, it gave me possibility to enter the role of protagonist and enjoy the Moe and all that by myself, where as in that route in e17, It was story told to me, In the end I felt more like an observer of what is going on than someone experiencing it myself.)

It is also one of the reasons I want some anime to actually be VN, like To Love Ru, rather than people who want VN to become anime, that I don't really want and I take it more like recap just like now with little busters, im glad I played the game before the anime.

And the same can be said when we have the other topics - are graphics of characters, event CGs or whatever neccesary? For me - YES, I am not much of a creative person so I don't have wide imagination, I am more technical and I can make connection between stories and chapters and between characters to my liking, but I can't just imagine a person solely from text, that's why I never read much of fictional books telling stories and I love VNs.

But I will leave those discussions for the other weeks when these topics are made

[InvertMouse]

harry_kinomoto, you're completely right. It can be glaring when an artist breaks conventions just for the sake of doing it. Often, it makes it feel like the author is just trying to impress, and nobody appreciates that.

*Reads steverowland's response* .... What the--there's a vocaloid VN ? No one's told me about this! Anyway, it's true. The overall enjoyment is what matters in the end. I loved Ever17, which is plot focused, yet I also obsessed over romance routes like Kawana Misaki's. As for the anime thing, when done right, I actually appreciate seeing those anime adaptions. Actually, I find most VNs are, if it's okay for me to say, really draggy with tons of unnecessary scenes. Of course, I'm pretty impatient so we need to keep that in mind .

[Steve]

What the--there's a vocaloid VN :blink:/>?

everyone was trying to tell you, you just were not listening :

http://visualnovelaer.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/just-uploaded-the-two-vocaloid-visual-novels/

[Clephas]

Asking whether routes are necessary is kind of silly. Nothing about games is necessary...

However, if you ask it in the sense that 'I prefer games with only one path to the ending' then no, it isn't. They are called 'kinetic novels' and only have one path, which leads straight down a set path to a set ending. Unsurprisingly, some of the hidden gems I've come across in my 250+ VN-playing career have been of this type (primarily because the non-nukige ones tend to be works of love). As a recent example, Namima no Kuni no Faust. A single path to a single ending, with tons of drama and interesting events along the way (along with a setting that both stirs the interest and chills to the bone). Sinclient is another recent one with an excellent story (though it goes kind of flat toward the end). It is simply that most of the ones translated so far have been multipath and that most VNs are multipath as well.

[InvertMouse]

Asking whether routes are necessary is kind of silly. Nothing about games is necessary...

We're more here to share thoughts rather than just a blunt yes or no answer. Hope that's all right. Thanks for sharing those kinetic novel titles! Might check them out sometime (delusional about having time again).

[Steve]

Yeah these topics are more about the reason behind it being used a lot.

And even though Clephas is right that nothing in game is necessary to create it, there are factors that are necessary to sell them (because without them people don't enjoy it that much), that is actually what we discuss in the topics. Are routes necessary for good selling games? - not really, as there are tons of good kinetic novels that sold very well.

If you would then however ask if music (bgm) is necessary, I would say yes, I'm not much knowledgeable but I don't know a single popular or good sold visual novel that doesn't have BGM and the reason might be that the music sets the mood in VN, without it it would be much lesser experience (at least for me). But lets leave that for different topic

[alden_0023]

Well, I have only little experience with VNs so I don't know a lot of them that provides no routes..

Though a comparison may be Tomoyo After, which has very few options that would change the storyline (I think).. But still I really liked it, because the storyline is so deep and well written..

So as for the necessity of routes, I think it is not a necessity, as one story with a single ending isn't at all a bad thing..

Still, I think many would prefer having routes on VNs, as it entices your gaming experience.. ^^

[InvertMouse]

Yeah Steve, music is something that has been on my mind when I develop indie games here and there. But yes, we'll talk about that later B).

I think so too, alden_003. Recently, I've finished 999 for the DS and loved it. The game has six endings. That's fine, but I'm wondering if I would've loved it just as much if it had just the single true ending. I think my answer could be a yes. That's why this topic came to mind.

[Stanleys]

I actually prefer to have Vn's or other games that have different routes that you can take. With routes, you get a little more freedom with the choices you make in the VN and gives you a sense of control on where you're going in a game. But like anything, if done right, a linear story can still be amazing. It's been a while since I've read something with a linear story, but there have been some great stories that have been purely linear.

[Mr. Meogii]

That's perfectly fine. But vns serve a wider audience. Why? Well not everyone is the same and having multiple endings increases the chance of the consumer being satisfied.

[AMMSY]

Theres a difference between mass effect choice style and VNs in general. In mass effect the story doesn't change, you fight you die and you fight again, your choice are only tailoring the story and experience. How ever in VNs your decision could get you into a completely different story and as the name suggests routes in the story world.

 

And I personally think that the fact the small decisions like punching someone or helping them will reflect later on their relationship with me and therefore either help or interfere with my goals. Just make the whole world and story much more meaningful and alive.