Aiyoku no Eustia Translation Announcement

[Darklord Rooke]

1)I'm respecting the literature that the author put out.

 

Then you should say so, I ain't a mind-reader

 

I'm not "green" to fan translations. Grisaia no Kajitsu is an amazing recent fan translation that showed why a translator should be both knowledgeable in Japanese literature and in English literature.

 

That is most definitely true. However, most translators who are both knowledgeable in Japanese and English literature can find employment as a professional translator, which is why they are rare in the fan-tl field. Grisaia was an exception, and was quite well done. Very surprising.

 

That doesn't mean that as a community everybody should start welcoming bad translations with open arms. Why would anybody want to read garbage?

 

Well, I never said you should be welcoming them with open arms. I doubt, however, people are in any position to complain. They're providing a product, they're not getting any compensation from anybody for that product, so that would mean they don't have to answer to anybody concerning it's quality. 

 

tl;dr: "I've been swimming in trash and people keep wanting to give me trash, so I should accept the trash!" is not a good argument.

 

Not quite what I've been saying. I'm saying it's being provided for free and so you should get used to poor translations, most of the really talented people don't exactly go around giving things out without recompense. You don't have to accept it, that's never been my argument, just don't be surprised if that's really all that's being offered *shrugs*.

[Okami]

 

Why would I be grateful about somebody stamping out the possibility of a more competent translator picking up the project? I've got a lot of respect for the work translators do, and the fruits of their labor, which is exactly why this is pissing me off. If an official translator does an awful job localizing something, am I supposed to just be grateful and purchase it knowing that it's awful, and now there can never be a fan translation of it? Look at this message Wahfuu relayed to the thread from his translator friend:

 

 

Translators themselves are sickened by this. This isn't just a harmless addition to the community, it's a toxin in the pool.

 

Who the hell do you think you are to demand perfection for free. Nobody owns you anything if you can't stand a bad translation, then learn Japanese and don't rely on fan translators.

[Hometown and Life]

That is most definitely true. However, most translators who are both knowledgeable in Japanese and English literature can find employment as a professional translator, which is why they are rare in the fan-tl field. Grisaia was an exception, and was quite well done. Very surprising.

Uh, actually those professional translators don't stop making fan translations. You're sorely mistaken if you think each time a good work comes out they just disappear forever into the abyss of paid work and never release free products ever again. Grisaia's translator just got some official work, but already said he's coming back to finish up Grisaia right after. Just like nearly every professional translator.

Well, I never said you should be welcoming them with open arms. I doubt, however, people are in any position to complain. They're providing a product, they're not getting any compensation from anybody for that product, so that would mean they don't have to answer to anybody concerning it's quality. 

 

Not quite what I've been saying. I'm saying it's being provided for free and so you should get used to poor translations, most of the really talented people don't exactly go around giving things out without recompense. You don't have to accept it, that's never been my argument, just don't be surprised if that's really all that's being offered *shrugs*.

They're not just providing a product. When you release a fan translation in the visual novel community, you have basically marked that product as done for good. Unless an official translator redoes it (which is EXTREMELY rare,the last thing was Stein's;Gate) then that visual novel will never be worked on by another translator. That's why translators are expected to treat their work with great respect and only pick up a project they know they can do very well. When you release a poor quality translation, you have just murdered every hope of a high quality translation.

 

Quite often when an already fan-translated work gets an official release, the company just buys the original fan-translation. This can't happen when the fan translation is of poor quality, and it's much more costly and less appealing to commission an entirely new translation. When you release garbage into the visual novel community, you harm it and everybody has to suffer for it.

[Katatsumuri]

I don't know how I feel abut the "Unless we find someone to translate H-scenes, we will skip them."

 

On one hand, I absolutely LOATHE all kinds of censorship, because it spoils how the creators intended it to be.

 

On the other hand, I am not proficient in Japanese enough to actually translate myself, so there is literally nothing I can do about. I wouldn't mind translating a H-scene if I could, but I can't. And it's their decision, which has to be respected. And if they cannot find anyone with enough skills and willingness to translate H-scenes, then there is nothing to be done about it.

[Darklord Rooke]

Uh, actually those professional translators don't stop making fan translations. You're sorely mistaken if you think each time a good work comes out they just disappear forever into the abyss of paid work and never release free products ever again. Grisaia's translator just got some official work, but already said he's coming back to finish up Grisaia right after. Just like nearly every professional translator.

 

Well, firstly I'm happy he's coming back to Grisaia.

 

However, I meant most of the talent can find employment as professional translators outside of the visual novel industry (in international companies, for example.) You may get a couple of very passionate people who want to stay inside, but it's hard because the pay isn't good. 

 

I understand the impact on VN fans by shoddy translations. I don't think turning on them is the best way to resolve such issues, though. 

[Hometown and Life]

Well, firstly I'm happy he's coming back to Grisaia.

 

However, I meant most of the talent can find employment as professional translators outside of the visual novel industry (in international companies, for example.) You may get a couple of very passionate people who want to stay inside, but it's hard because the pay isn't good. 

 

I understand the impact on VN fans by shoddy translations. I don't think turning on them is the best way to resolve such issues, though. 

 

I'm not trying to tell him he's an awful individual and needs to leave.

I'm saying he should not go take a good work of literature and butcher it to get into the community. He should brush up on his Japanese, work on translating something he can actually handle, and learn to respect the works. Going into a project already saying "there may be imprecise translations," is the most disrespectful way I have ever seen somebody treat a work of literature ever.

 

I wouldn't dare join a construction crew and start operating heavy machinery immediately and endanger all my coworkers with my inexperience.

 

I should also mention these talented translators also tend to have full time jobs to support themselves. This work often isn't even translation work, but that's beside the point. Being hired as a professional translator does not exclude one from putting out fan translations, and it quite often doesn't. Official visual novel translations of well-written works don't come around very often.

[Wahfuu]

Who the hell do you think you are to demand perfection for free. Nobody owns you anything if you can't stand a bad translation, then learn Japanese and don't rely on fan translators.

Uh, I've read Eustia in Japanese and I don't want to see it get ruined by someone who's japanese is admittedly not up to par. People have every right to call out stuff that they feel might be a disaster.

Sorry, not everyone is just going to sit back and take whatever gets thrown at them. I mean, I'm not crucifying him here, I need to see the scripts/progress ofc, but this whole thing doesn't look very promising.

[Hometown and Life]

Who the hell do you think you are to demand perfection for free. Nobody owns you anything if you can't stand a bad translation, then learn Japanese and don't rely on fan translators.

 

Or I can continue reading all the good fan translations you moron.

 

You know, the ones done by the very same people who are telling this guy not to ruin Eustia if he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

I don't go around complaining when something isn't being translated. I complain when somebody wastes their own time and the entire community's time. Showing that visual novels can be well written brings interest to the medium, which in turn shows Japan that we have an audience in the West that will buy their products, and then allows for official translations to be brought out for everybody to enjoy.

 

I'm not demanding something good for free, I'm demanding this guy doesn't kill Eustia in the West for free.

[Chronopolis]

He's looking for 2 more translators, and I assume there'll be tlc's as well. I don't think imagining the final product based on his knowledge of Japanese alone is accurate, there's too many other factors that could affect the quality one way or the other.

Well if the other two translators and TLC are qualified, well then *that* is fine. That's not the problem. If you admit (and he admits) that his Japanese is not up to stretch, then he shouldn't be translating. A TLC's job is to double check for the TL and to make sure the post-editor lines are still accurate; it's not to mark and correct a consistently spotty translation. Neither the TLC nor other TL's can prevent the hit to quality caused by an incompetent translator, short of translating the lines in question themselves.

 

Anyways, I think Rooke recognizes this as well, but he's like

1) The translation might have some merits (e.g. good writing), and there are quite a number people who will enjoy it.

 

I don't think multi-TLing is bad, only:

a ) you want to keep things consistent

b ) every TL has to be competent

 

If you think you can do a better job than take on a project and do it, if not then stop complaining, shut up and be grateful.

Stawp that. The fact that someone is unable or unwilling to take on an task doesn't take away their freedom to criticize other people's attempts at that task.

 

Depending on your standards, it's also reasonable to believe that below a certain point, doing something that badly becomes unacceptable. It's not particularly friendly to tell someone to be grateful for something they find unacceptable.

 

-----

 

So I've seen the debate of allowing/supporting "bad translations/projects" versus criticizing and opposing them pop up from time to time, and have been wanting to take a stab at sorting this out.

 

Some people tolerate or support all translation projects, largely independent of the quality. I'll call this a laissez faire to translation projects (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality). On the flip side, you have people who would rather not have these poor quality translations occur. Of course, you can't physically stop the group from doing it, so the alternate options are:

a) criticizing the group, in a hope in convincing the project members or other community members;

b-) complaining about such groups (distinguished by a lack of significant purpose or an attempt to convince);

c) vitriol and slander (whether the original accusation is true or false);

or d) investigating and pointing out bad translation works.

{Note that B, C, D are 4chan's VNTL translation thread}

 

Now this post isn't about what people do on either sides of the stance, it's the reasoning behind the laissez faire stance or it's counterpart. From posts in this thread and elsewhere, I've picked up on 3 angles of debate.

 

1) Differing views of the Value of a Product: "Why would you spend so much time working on something to produce a product which I judge to be of little to no value (based on one or more factors). Based on my hand-wave reasoning/intuition, this is not really valid. People value things differently. Asking that is like asking "Why do you see things so differently?".

 

This is the primary reason for supporting laissez faire translations (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality). If people want to take on the translation (various reasons: e-fame, perceived contributing back to the community, wanting to utilize their Japanese or other skills), and other people want to play the game, then who is anyone to stop them?

 

2) Repercussions: A bad translation most likely *will* kill any possible chances for a good translation down the road. I think this is generally accepted as true. With that in mind:

"Even if you stop this translation from going ahead there's no guarantee that the next one will be any better (the previous one by Yandere looked pretty bad as well, for example.)"

This argument won't deter someone in the following (possible valid) mindset.  If only one release can happen and I see one that is unacceptable by my standards, I'll oppose it for sure and take my chances with the next one. If I think unacceptable = not worth doing = enough of a waste of time to be worse than not doing it at all, then the possibility of having the translation never be done doesn't deter me either. As a side note, the odds are probably pretty good that Eustia will get a translation within the next 5 years.

 

3) Literature integrity: First of all, I think it's safe to say that the majority of us believe that VN's have artistic or literary merit.

Here's one of the two stances: "I'm respecting the literature that the author put out. This is not a debate about intellectual property rights, it's a debate about respect for the arts."

Honestly, I haven't seen any one state their reason for an opposite stance on this front. There's probably not a whole lot of room to argue against on this one.

• If the people releasing the a bad translation misrepresent it as "good" and representative of the original work, then that's unacceptable for most people, I think.
  • As a side note, the people who would do bad translations are more prone to misjudging their capabilities. No group releases their patch calling it a bad translation. Even in the face of being pointed out, it's understandably difficult for the team members to acknowledge that, much less publicly renounce the fact. Overall it's not the most pleasant situation for both sides (this would fall under "repercussions").
• If people for some don't learn that a certain translation they read was bad, and think the bad translation is representative of the original work, then that's definitely unfair to the original author. Whether this is unfairness is unacceptable or not, I don't know what people think about this. Note that people might discuss what they read and the popular (flawed) opinion might arise that is unfair to the original author.
• If most readers are aware of that the translation is bad (it should be widely known to fall under this case), then they know at least that the translation isn't representative of the original work, though they won't be people to know *where* the inaccuracies are. They might be less quick to judge the original author.
  • However, I argue that people are still going to attach their perception of the translated work heavily to the original. Firstly, people are going to judge anyways because expressing one's opinion (on a work) is a pretty common thing to do, and you're not going to disclaimer everything you say or think with the the thought that sections could be wrong. It's easy to forget that a bad translation could possibly affect every part of the VN (you don't know as the reader). I think it's also disheartening to:
    • feel that the game one has had the chance to read (and enjoyed) bears a bad translation, and is inferior because of it.
    • confront the fact that the one's perception of the game is probably negatively impacted by the translation and any verdicts one makes is through that translucent screen.
  • As a result, I think in practice people don't give relatively much thought regarding a bad translation they knowingly read and judge. So the end result is largely the same (unfair to the author).

In conclusion, I believe that Angle 1) are the primary reason why people would support laissez faire translations (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality of every translation). Angle 2 and 3 are basically all demerits to this stance. Namely, one would believe that the enjoyment held by the persons involved outweighs the closing of that VN to a possible good translation or any literary injustice.

 

I think both stances are valid, but I get the feeling of inconsistencies creeping into some posts.

TLDR: If you support X, consider your stances and the logic that would finally arrive at you supporting X. Make sure you are clear on what you disagree with. That's my two cents, anyways.

[Decay]

Wow, who expected this thread to erupt like this? Why don't we wait for an example of the translation quality before getting out the pitchforks? This strikes me as really hasty and mean spirited.

[Okami]

Uh, I've read Eustia in Japanese and I don't want to see it get ruined by someone who's japanese is admittedly not up to par. People have every right to call out stuff that they feel might be a disaster.

Sorry, not everyone is just going to sit back and take whatever gets thrown at them. I mean, I'm not crucifying him here, I need to see the scripts/progress ofc, but this whole thing doesn't look very promising.

 

No, they don't have a right. Ever heard of a saying bagger doesn't get to be chooser?

 

[Darklord Rooke]

@Chronopolis: I find it very scary that you followed that argument so closely. Impressive... but scary.

 

Scary! 

 

 Why don't we wait for an example of the translation quality before getting out the pitchforks? This strikes me as really hasty and mean spirited.

 

I agree with this by the way. 

[Hometown and Life]

Wow, who expected this thread to erupt like this? Why don't we wait for an example of the translation quality before getting out the pitchforks? This strikes me as really hasty and mean spirited.

 

Saying you're not good at Japanese, that you're not going to have a completely accurate translation, and that there's a possibility the story may turn out completely different from the original is pretty damn bad. It's just such a serious lack of respect.

Before that it was more of people getting a really bad feeling about the entire thing, but reserving judgement otherwise. 

 

Ever heard of a saying bagger doesn't get to be chooser?

 

No, but luckily I'm neither a "bagger" nor a beggar, since I'm a human being capable of seeking out translations done by trusted people, learning Japanese for myself, and finding other forms of entertainment.

[Decay]

There is one more component that makes me somewhat accepting of the laissez faire philosophy, as Chronopolis puts it. It's just a simple fact that there are more entertaining/worthwhile VNs out there than the number highly skilled translators can translate. Simply put, the supply greatly exceeds the capacity to translate. Taking a wide view, this can mean that even if some VNs get ruined by shit translators, there are still always more great VNs waiting to be translated by the great translators out there. And that flow of VNs being skillfully translated is not hindered by some VNs being ruined. This philosophy of course has a lot of downsides. If the number of shitty translates increase disproportionately there can be a problem, and if your own personal favorite VN is one that gets ruined, well, that really sucks. There are other considerations as well, you could hope that translators would be more selective of what they translate, and pick projects that are appropriate for their skill levels. But this is kind of a vain hope, nobody wants to work on a mediocre or bad game. But to say that people who aren't especially skilled should either translate those mediocre titles or not participate at all is really unfair. In my opinion, the best solution to this problem is to encourage the skilled translators to translate the games they are most passionate about regardless of existing translations or active projects, and not to shoot down everyone who tries but isn't quite up to snuff. This increases redundancy and reduces the total amount of translated VNs overall, but is it worth it if it means that games can't really get ruined so much?

 

No, they don't have a right. Ever heard of a saying bagger doesn't get to be chooser?

 

No, but I've heard of "Beggers can't be choosers." Honestly, I dislike the "Well do it yourself/better or don't criticize" attitude intensely. Criticism is an extremely important aspect of any creative medium and everyone has the right to criticize. You do not have to be a translator to criticize translations. You don't have to be a chef to criticize food, or a writer to criticize books. Many communities lately are becoming hostile towards criticism and it's always to their detriment. Criticism is important, please don't try to shut it out.

[Hometown and Life]

But to say that people who aren't especially skilled should either translate those mediocre titles or not participate at all is really unfair.

 

I'm not saying they have to start translating h-scenes so the big boys don't have to deal with it (H-scenes are so awful and tedious to sift through). I'm saying they should develop their skills in a meaningful way instead of killing an entire VN that's way over their head for their own entertainment. Reading it for yourself is one thing, but announcing a project, claiming the entire visual novel to yourself, and then butchering it because you're not skilled is way more unfair than leaving it to somebody who can make a quality product for the entire community enjoy.

 

There's a lot of fandiscs for fairly popular (and quality) visual novels that are way more simply written and need translators. Doing fan translations is a passion that can be very self-fulfilling, but any translator worth their salt thinks of respecting the original writer and the readers they are giving their product to.

[Okami]

 

Saying you're not good at Japanese, that you're not going to have a completely accurate translation, and that there's a possibility the story may turn out completely different from the original is pretty damn bad. It's just such a serious lack of respect.

Before that it was more of people getting a really bad feeling about the entire thing, but reserving judgement otherwise. 

 

 

No, but luckily I'm neither a "bagger" nor a beggar, since I'm a human being capable of seeking out translations done by trusted people, learning Japanese for myself, and finding other forms of entertainment.

 

 

Then why don't you do that and stop complaining already.

[Darklord Rooke]

I'll add another point and say trying to reserve good visual novels for the better translators to work on, and actively seeking to discourage more ordinary translators in participating is beginning to tread into the area of elitism and exclusive behaviour. It's not really the direction I like to see communities head in.

[starcraft2]

As a casual reader, my first reaction when I reached the end of Yandere's patch one year ago was not "That was terrible, I hope he stops translating this!" but immense disappointment that I couldn't read on. After seeing this debate, I now understand what the second post in https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/1888-japanese-help-thread-for-translators/ was referring to

[BlankTranslations]

Wow, who expected this thread to erupt like this? Why don't we wait for an example of the translation quality before getting out the pitchforks? This strikes me as really hasty and mean spirited.

 

Exactly. We'll be releasing a partial patch, and hopefully people can gauge the quality of our translation after that. If people want the translation to be higher quality, then having more members in our translation team could help us achieve that.

 

Edit: Though I don't think I'm as bad a translator as I've made myself out to be on this thread. Rather, I just wanted to say that I'm not at the level of Yandere's head translator.

[kite]

Exactly. We'll be releasing a partial patch, and hopefully people can gauge the quality of our translation after that. If people want the translation to be higher quality, then having more members in our translation team could help us achieve that.

 

Edit: Though I don't think I'm as bad a translator as I've made myself out to be.

I personally wish you luck and hope that the translation will be good.

[garejei]

lol at least give the team a chance to prove themselves before you start witch hunting their asses. Seriously guys. Let them release that partial patch first.

 

I feel like I'm reading a 4chan thread.

[Kawakami_Complex]

My my, there's an awful lot of criticism being flung around here, good luck on the translation guys, should at least give people a chance before having a go at them. I look forward to trying it out.

[Freestyle80]

why so much complaining,i thought fuwa's community was better than this.......just stfu and let them do their work.

 

And as many have said before,if u think u can do a better job then go do it instead of typing all these pointless comments -_-

 

wats the Goddamn point in demotivating them? just to make yourselves feel better?

 

sigh...

[Nosebleed]

lol at least give the team a chance to prove themselves before you start witch hunting their asses. Seriously guys. Let them release that partial patch first.

I feel like I'm reading a 4chan thread.

Thank you.

Seriously guys i get that some of you are worried and rightfully so, however you're already imagining worst case scenarios based off of thin air. That is not right in any way. This person was honest about the situation and you just bashed him assuming things on your own. Wether what you say is going to be true or not, i find it really disrespectful to come at someone like that when there's no example of his work. You don't know what it's going to be like so you can't just assume things on your own

I can't imagine how the OP feels after reading such discouraging words. You're literally bringing him down before he even gets to try and prove himself.

I honestly want to lock this thread but this is just my personal opinion here so i won't act based on that but this seriously made me mad. Come on guys be a little reasonable.

[Aggressor]

I'm pretty bad at Japanese to be quite frank, but we have really good editors.

Good editors can compensate for poor English, not for poor Japanese.

Well, since Eustia's difficulty is not far above your average moege and the writing is very consistent and grammatically correct (no slang / kansaiben), "pretty bad" may be enough for reasonably accurate TL.