Future of the VN industry

[Ashadow700]

Hi everyone!

 

A little over a week ago I made a video on Youtube outlining some of my thoughts about what the future of visuals outside Japan might be like. I thought it would be interesting to hear what everyone here thinks about how the industry is going to develop as well, and if you agree/disagree with my thoughts so I figured I might as well post it here too.

 

Here is the video, if you're interested in watching it:

 

[Mephisto]

Aiyoku no Eustia included

 

10/10

 

Lol needs some eushully/alicesoft too :< 

[Flutterz]

Off the top of my head, the OSTs you used were Rewrite, Katawa Shoujo, Ever17, Sharin no Kuni and Katawa Shoujo again.

Regarding what you actually said, yeah, all true. Nothing too eye-opening, though.

[monkeysrumble]

Good video, I agree that VN's need more fan publicity in order to get the word out. I doubt that they would ever be as big in the west as they are in Japan but I think a lot more people would enjoy them more then they think. The odds are if you like anime as a medium for story telling then you will like visual novels. H-scenes were a turn off for me in VN's as well but my first VN was Fate/Stay Night, if you can get through those then you can get through anything. 

[Okami]

Well I think you forgot about one thing that could prove to be important when discusing about future of VNs in a west. And that is Japanese Shoujo android VN companies giving us more English VNs. Other then that I agree with moust what you said, number of VN fans in a west did increse and so did number of translations in last faw years, still there is a long way to go. And yea H-scenes are deffinitely a big turn off for a lot who would like to get into VNs, if I knew they existed before I goten into VNs by reading some all-ages ones and then started one 18+ without knowing that H-scene exist and goten to love the story I might newer goten into VNs myself. I still hate them, but I bare with them for purpose of story.

[shcboomer]

Interesting, I'll give a watch when I have some free time.

[Clephas]

Even in Japan, VNs have only really exploded beyond ero-fans in the past decade and a half.  In previous decades, 'serious' VNs were a rarity.  However, the relatively recent (the last fourteen to fifteen years) expansion of the plot-focused side of the industry is slowly altering the way they are seen, both over here and over there.

 

As the thread author states in the video, VNs will never be other than niche, precisely because more people are functionally illiterate (they can't sit down and read a book and feel that it is enjoyable) than ever before.  Anime fans that never get beyond dubs are classic examples of this type of person... they don't want to read subs, so they live with sub-par English voices instead.  You have to be introduced to reading for fun pretty early, if you want to be able to enjoy it.  With more and more kids raised by their televisions, I doubt this trend will reverse itself anytime soon. (incidentally, studies have shown that the human brain's cognitive functions develop faster the more you actually read, rather than watching videos or listening to lectures)

 

I started out as a speed-reading bibliophile... and so becoming a VN-lover was just a natural step, once I was introduced to them. 

 

I've watched the fanbase and market for VNs expand rapidly over the last five years here in the West, but I've yet to meet a person who started their otaku life as a VN fan, who was born in the West.  Almost everyone enters into otakudom through role-playing games, anime, or manga.  So, it is only natural that VNs would be the weakest branch of the otaku tree here.

 

Like the author says, the biggest barrier besides the reading aspect (which is ultimately the biggest one), is the sexual aspects.  One of the most ironic things about the VN industry is that better than 90% of the best VN plots come out of the eroge (VNs with erotic content) part of the VN medium.  This sometimes gets me to thinking about whether good writers just want to write about sex... or good writers are using the sex to get people to pay attention to their writing. 

 

Another barrier is that, unlike manga and anime, there are relatively few VNs that appeal to both genders.  Otome games are basically unplayable to the average guy, outside of a few truly excellent entries, and only the best male-oriented VNs are enjoyable to both sexes.  For the otome game side of things, the issue is really, really simple... DIDS (Damsel-in-Distress-Syndrome).  Almost every otomege I've tried has had this fatal flaw, where the protagonist spends most of her time either afraid of the guys, looking to be saved by the guys, and/or actually being rescued by the guys.  Since I grew up respecting women as equals, this pisses me off when I have to deal with it - especially when the female protagonist is otherwise capable and strong-willed.  The reason behind this seems to be that otome games get the same treatment as romance novels as a genre over there.  Who takes romance novels seriously as a genre here?  There is a reason why most of them sell for less than the other genres, whether in paperback or hardcover. 

 

Another problem blocking growth of the market is translator burn-out.  Fantranslation is an incredibly thankless job.  If you do badly as a group, people bash you for your horrible translations, and if you do well, you get other translators nitpicking about your mistakes.  Not only that, but you are basically giving up dozens of hours of your time for free.  Volunteer spirit only takes you so far, and the appreciation of the community starts to feel empty after a surprisingly short time.  Even passion eventually burns out entirely.  In my case, what was left when all of the above occurred was the simple fact that I want people to be able to see what I've been seeing for the past five years, as I've delved into the depths of the VN abyss.  I don't like people... but even I want to be able to share my passions on occasion.  Since I've spent most of my free time on niche hobbies for the past twenty-two years, that's definitely been lacking overall, but with untranslated VNs, it has gone to another level. 

 

Now that I've ranted, a few serious thoughts.  VNs in the US will ALWAYS be balanced on the precipice, for several reasons.

 

1.  Erotic content: A society influenced by Christianity or Islam is inevitably going to be prudish... and democratic political parties are always looking for the next social lever to use at the bully pulpit

 

2.  Piracy: The entire medium's growth in the West beyond nukige is due to fantranslators making patches, thus resulting in mass piracy.  Since game piracy is seen as a big issue and the government is always looking for a new criminal issue to distract people, all fantranslators are taking a risk to a greater or lesser extent by working on such projects.

 

3.  Niches tend to narrow when times are hard

 

4.  For those who aren't in the last stages of Otakuitis (the disease that causes one to become an otaku and grows worse as one indulges the accompanying impulses), VNs are difficult to get into.  As such,  if there was a movement to get VNs out of Western markets, there is a good chance no significant opposition would even be put up by the otaku community. 

 

5.  Most bibliophiles, those most likely to enjoy VNs, would rather read actual pure-text literature. 

 

These define both the limits and dangers that will always keep the medium on the precipice in the West.

[Funyarinpa]

 

but I've yet to meet a person who started their otaku life as a VN fan, who was born in the West. 

 

 

Hello, nice to meet you.

[ken2260]

I am an Asian VN fan come from Hong Kong where the Japanese subculture is more prevalent; but still very few VNs or eroge were able to be published here. As what Clephas has mentioned, Erotic content and piracy are of the crucial problems. Governments tend to see these kinds of game as perverted game (Hentai game) or worse (as some titles featuring little girls known as rori characters), publishing these games outside Japan will be easily attacked as deteriorating the culture or leading teenagers "astray"! That's why many producers have been or used to banned foreign IP from accessing their websites (so as to avoid controversy).

 

Unfortunately, there indeed many VNs specialized in erotic content (known as nukige) and you can't really expect people accept the subculture's values and perspectives easily...(even in Japan, the mainstream does not accept the otaku culture and think them as somehow perverted)

 

I think first there must be larger pool of Japanese manga and anime fans so that people who are willing to accept the art style of Japanese character would be more, and the niche in the West will be large enough to catch the attention of the Japanese producers. 

 

I really would like to see one day the West can also have its own VNs production or more officially translated VNs are available.☜( ด็็็็็้้้้้็็็็้้้้้็็็็็้้้ ਊ ส้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้้ )☞

[zoom909]

 

Another problem blocking growth of the market is translator burn-out.  Fantranslation is an incredibly thankless job.  If you do badly as a group, people bash you for your horrible translations, and if you do well, you get other translators nitpicking about your mistakes.  Not only that, but you are basically giving up dozens of hours of your time for free.  Volunteer spirit only takes you so far, and the appreciation of the community starts to feel empty after a surprisingly short time.  Even passion eventually burns out entirely.  In my case, what was left when all of the above occurred was the simple fact that I want people to be able to see what I've been seeing for the past five years, as I've delved into the depths of the VN abyss.  I don't like people... but even I want to be able to share my passions on occasion.  Since I've spent most of my free time on niche hobbies for the past twenty-two years, that's definitely been lacking overall, but with untranslated VNs, it has gone to another level. 

 

2.  Piracy: The entire medium's growth in the West beyond nukige is due to fantranslators making patches, thus resulting in mass piracy.  Since game piracy is seen as a big issue and the government is always looking for a new criminal issue to distract people, all fantranslators are taking a risk to a greater or lesser extent by working on such projects.

This is a good post...I'm only quoting the parts I have questions about.

 

I guess there is some translator burn-out, but so far I haven't had the problems with it being thankless yet.

If the issue is quality related, what else can be said?  Is there any line of work where you expect to get complimented for doing a lousy job?

Anyway, I got several compliments on my "Mirai no Kimi to..." translation, and even more importantly, I saw the posts of people who got very emotional and felt like they actually fell in love with her while playing the game.  I was happy to see this.  It's a tough world out there.  A lot of people could use a waifu.  I remember Aaeru talking about the unique first-person romance perspective that visual novels can give you.

I think more translators are forced to give up instead of burn out.  It's all too easy for a shift in their job or school or whatever to suddenly narrow their free time, now forcing them to choose between working on the project or some other entertainment instead.  Plus it's mentally exhausting.  And again, some of them make the mistake of taking on a project without having read it first, only to find out it gets so hard that they can't continue.

 

As far as the piracy issue goes, there is also mass piracy of anime and manga via the internet.  So how does that explain the shortage of commercial VNs compared to commercial anime and manga?  And why should translation patches, which can be applied to official versions as easily as unauthorized copies, be considered a piracy problem?

[Supah Kawaii Weeaboo]

Let's look at common obstacles and consider how to get around them:

 

* Obligatory porn: Don't translate stories and games which include one or more tacked-on sex scenes. If the story is genuinely good, then only translate the worksafe console/mobile ports.

 

Also, if you're writing a VN in English, throw out the notion that every major path needs to include a sex scene. Decide on a content rating and stick with it. Strive to let PG-rated and R-rated stories be equally interesting.

 

* Nearly identical art, character ages, themes...: If you find a notable untranslated visual novel with unusual art (clearly different from current anime-manga styles), compelling adult characters, and/or untapped themes... then make every effort to translate it.

 

Likewise, when writing your VN, be willing to consider just about any art style and a wide range of ages for characters. Any setting, motif, and story genre should be fair game. Discard the idea that your story has to be a romance around a school in contemporary Japan. Think about what other stories you enjoy, and what you're comfortable writing. Then get to work.

 

* Main character as Mary Sue / Marty Stu for the reader: Look for material to translate in which the main character is not an empty shell for the reader. Then don't advertise the translated work as if the main character was just a device so that the audience can indulge in a fantasy.

 

If this is your project, first ask yourself if you want your main character to be a blank slate. Then spend a while reading articles such as http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SoYouWantTo/AvoidWritingAMarySue. As an aside, I'm not sure if this problem is common in boy x boy or girl x girl stories.

 

* Nobody buys anything: Look at what's currently on the market. Can you find a few which are 1) genuinely good, 2) reasonably priced, and 3) work with NO problems on a computer, console, or mobile device? Politely promote them to other people. Admit that they are imperfect, but talk about why you find them enjoyable.

 

If you're trying to sell your VN, think about where it *should* be sold. Risk selling direct downloads or risk using a free-to-play structure? Give away the core visual novel for free, but sell any related merchandise? Are you willing to invest the effort needed to get the product on paid-download services such as Steam or Gamersgate? How about iTunes or Google Play? If your story is taboo-breaking or difficult to categorize, maybe you need to have a dedicated website.

 

If you're trying to sell stories to people who only want gameplay, you will probably not succeed. Include complex gameplay only if it makes your project stronger.

 

* Inclusivity and diversity. These are topic which I think should be addressed step by step, as well as VN by VN. Some of Winter Wolves' indie games seem like good steps forward. For instance, in Roommates, there are two protagonists, as well as both heterosexual and bisexual love interests. Let your story be inclusive and diverse, but at the same time don't force it. I do not think most stories benefit from having token characters.

 

Another barrier is that, unlike manga and anime, there are relatively few VNs that appeal to both genders.  Otome games are basically unplayable to the average guy, outside of a few truly excellent entries, and only the best male-oriented VNs are enjoyable to both sexes.

 

I became a visual novel fan through boy x girl stories, and enjoyed most of them. It took a few years before there were any girl x boy stories available in English. Now, I enjoy both types about equally.

[Clephas]

This is a good post...I'm only quoting the parts I have questions about.

 

I guess there is some translator burn-out, but so far I haven't had the problems with it being thankless yet.

If the issue is quality related, what else can be said?  Is there any line of work where you expect to get complimented for doing a lousy job?

Anyway, I got several compliments on my "Mirai no Kimi to..." translation, and even more importantly, I saw the posts of people who got very emotional and felt like they actually fell in love with her while playing the game.  I was happy to see this.  It's a tough world out there.  A lot of people could use a waifu.  I remember Aaeru talking about the unique first-person romance perspective that visual novels can give you.

I think more translators are forced to give up instead of burn out.  It's all too easy for a shift in their job or school or whatever to suddenly narrow their free time, now forcing them to choose between working on the project or some other entertainment instead.  Plus it's mentally exhausting.  And again, some of them make the mistake of taking on a project without having read it first, only to find out it gets so hard that they can't continue.

 

As far as the piracy issue goes, there is also mass piracy of anime and manga via the internet.  So how does that explain the shortage of commercial VNs compared to commercial anime and manga?  And why should translation patches, which can be applied to official versions as easily as unauthorized copies, be considered a piracy problem?

Piracy of anime is actually hardly noticed, because Crunchy tacitly permits the hijacking of their subs for the Horrible releases.  Money for anime is made from advertising on the sites where it is streamed, mostly.  Few people actually buy DVDs or Blu-rays anymore, and those that do generally wait until the entire series is released in a box-set.  Manga... to be blunt, the business of selling manga here has never been that big, or at least not as much so as anime.  For one thing, it requires the reader's active participation in reading as well as imagination (both of which are difficult for the functionally illiterate).  For another... they are too expensive for buying a single one to be worth it, in most people's eyes.  Those who do buy them are usually buying them after they already read the pirated version. 

 

However, again, anime and manga pirates aren't as vulnerable as VN pirates.  For one thing, the actual monetary worth per unit is astronomically higher with VNs and for another it is much easier to attack the weak link (a small group) than a large, strong link (the larger group).  The more minor the minority, the easier it is to attack and the less backlash there is.

 

Burnout can take years... or it can take months.  However, most fantranslators/fansubbers experience it eventually.  For one thing, rl is something that can't be avoided, and trying to balance being an active translator with any sort of rl such as work or school is difficult and exhausting in the best of times.  Translation eats time and energy, after all.  It is even worse for people in relationships and the like.  Most of what I listed above are 'tipping issues', the issues that are usually the last straw that broke the camel's back.  Real life produces a constant pressure... whereas those issues will frequently tip the translator over the edge.  Once you've burned out once, it is quite painful to go back, even for a short time.

[Clephas]

A few points, for western-produced VNs.  There are a number of barriers to western-produced VNs reaching the level of quality you see over in Japan in terms of visuals, if not in writing (Katawa shoujo being an exception to the rule).

 

1.  Artist aesthetics- I'm sure at least some of you have noticed that most of the artists producing VNs in the US and the west in general (with a few glaring exceptions) simply don't have the right style to grasp the imagination of established otakus, thus weakening the chances of western-produced VNs being able to compete with Japanese for our lovely niche market. 

 

2.  Impact- Most western-produced VNs just don't have the impact that the best Japanese ones possess.  Honestly, this is more a cultural issue than a quality issue.  Subtlety is difficult in American English and our writers tend to take a realistic approach to story-writing.  Emotional surrealism, which is the basic bread and butter of Japanese-style VNs, is extremely hard for native English-speakers to produce.  To be blunt, we simply don't have the right type of linguistic expressions and depth to create something like Clannad from scratch.  Attempts to do so tend to fall flat and seem less refined, as a result.

 

Some great pluses we have in our favor.

 

1. A realistic-oriented culture.  When it comes to action/war stories, we frankly have a huge advantage over the Japanese in providing a sense of realism.  This is because we haven't spent over half a century doing our best to erase militarism from our culture and because violence in media is something we are exposed to from a very young age.  However, if taken too far, without emotionality to color the stories, this can result in a bland, factual type of storytelling that will - quite frankly - turn off the average otaku, even ones who like violence.  Games like Skyrim and Fallout 3 demonstrate the extreme edges of this type of storytelling, where the player's emotions aren't really engaged, despite huge amounts of text.  Purpose-oriented text without a lot of context surrounding it tends to create dry stories, lol.  This is why I don't bewail the type of extended character development you see in Japanese VNs as much as some people... I understand the necessity.

 

2.  Even if VNs themselves are not yet becoming that popular over here, VN-storytelling has the potential to revolutionize the story-focused rpg video game and strategy game.  Imagine a modern-style RTS utilizing a VN-style story-mode, where you get to know your heroes, thus giving you an emotional background to enjoy the story as well as the gameplay.   Combined with the fast-paced strategy of such a game, you could find yourself honestly absorbing yourself emotionally in the struggle for power, rather than sitting back in your seat and dispassionately delivering commands to your peons and armies.  With role-playing games, we've already seen how the addition of VN-storytelling can add to the plot of a good story, eliminating some of the reliance on visual aspects (and the accompanying programming and extra costs) to tell the story. 

[sanahtlig]

Imagine a modern-style RTS utilizing a VN-style story-mode, where you get to know your heroes, thus giving you an emotional background to enjoy the story as well as the gameplay.   Combined with the fast-paced strategy of such a game, you could find yourself honestly absorbing yourself emotionally in the struggle for power, rather than sitting back in your seat and dispassionately delivering commands to your peons and armies.

You mean Starcraft II?

 

RTS seems a bit too ambitious for current VN makers to pull off.  Eushully tried, and even in their skilled hands the result was mediocre.  G.J? also tried, and the result was really bad.  Good RTS titles require beefy game engines that your typical shoestring VN budget won't be able to support.

[Narcosis]

It's not about engines, it's about execution. Japanese devs typically lack the "firepower" needed to pull off such games; vn gamedev has much more in common with dojin scene, that any AAA development. Besides they wouldn't even have to reach for AAA, but wilingness is the problem here. After all, it's easier to create another cheap moege, than try to work on something they don't have the slightest clue about, and thus, propably fail at it in the end. Don't forget, that their current situation on market does not allow them to make mistakes, unless they want to stay afloat.

Eitherway, this is a really good topic. I'm glad people are actually interested discussing such things and there's not much left I could add myself, since Clephas wrote preety much everything I had in mind, haha.

[Clephas]

Madou Koukaku wasn't mediocre... but the battle system could have been better.  I've seen mediocre games... and that isn't one of them.

[Chronopolis]

You mean Starcraft II?

 

RTS seems a bit too ambitious for current VN makers to pull off.  Eushully tried, and even in their skilled hands the result was mediocre.  G.J? also tried, and the result was really bad.  Good RTS titles require beefy game engines that your typical shoestring VN budget won't be able to support.

Lol good example. It was a great example of pandering to a fairly low denominator. TBH, it had the feel of your average western high-production value action movie, with the usual stab at a moral dilemna, emotional scene, big ships and explosions. I don't think it has the extensive (for better or worse) "feel-like-you-understand-every-part-of-a-character" level of character development that I think Clephas is talking about.

[Clephas]

I was more going for an RTS developer teaming up with a VN developer... or an RTS developer using the VN techniques for storytelling, with decent writers.  Telling stories through movies is hideously expensive and time-consuming, whereas VN-storytelling is relatively cheap and far more effective from a reader's perspective. 

[sanahtlig]

Madou Koukaku wasn't mediocre... but the battle system could have been better.  I've seen mediocre games... and that isn't one of them.

The battle system was mediocre--probably the worst of any Eushully game I've played.  It wasn't an absolute failure, but precision of movement and overall balance were decidedly lacking.  The interaction of ranged attacks and melee attacks was particularly frustrating, even while painstakingly micromanaging individual units.  And this was AFTER Eushully responded to numerous complaints about the buggy battle system in the demo.  The good story offsets these problems, but it still ends up being an average game by Eushully standards.

[Clephas]

Still ten times better than Kamidori or Himegari, the true mediocre games in Eushully's lineup...

[zhurai]

Why are people suggesting RTS/Starcraft 2, when the RTS genre is actually slowly dying? [at least atm unless there's a serious innovation there]

[Clephas]

I was mostly using it as an example of potential, but then someone had to troll me on Eushully games.  Really, any genre that lets you sit and think could use a VN portion to tell the story... but srpg and rpg genre already have lots of fusions, with mixed results (some are absolutely terrible).

 

Edit:  Also, one of my points was that the Japanese tend to have a lot of weaknesses when it comes to game systems.  While they can make brilliantly choreographed games very well... when you get off the rails, they tend to lose out to western developers. 

[Treima]

Very interesting video, Ashadow, and I think you're on the right track. Ultimately, visual novel readers in the west are a very, very small cross-section of an already small community of otaku or Japanophiles. I hope that this community grows large enough to justify more devs taking the risk and making the expense to officially release more and more VNs to our shores. To be honest, my own personal interest in visual novels was discovered only very recently thanks to Persona 4 Arena, a relatively mainstream fighting game with a story mode that reads just like a VN between the fights.

[Clephas]

I remember playing Persona 3 when it first came out...  and recognizing it was using elements similar to a dating-sim.  At the time, I wasn't familiar with normal VNs, but I recognized some of the elements immediately when I played my first few moege.  I had a few laughs at the expense of the writers of the game, but overall it was a great game.