Doubts about censorship in Japan...

[Wolfscythe]

The other day I was reading a notice about a man who got arrested for having porn videos, but without a pixel censorship, and that apparently is illegal... so, my first reaction was "even that need to be censored?" so I was wondering what kind of laws they have over there about this matter. I know a bit about the recent law of this to anime, basically, then they could air series like mahoromatic with scenes where there are girls without clothes on the top, well, blatantly said, they could show their breasts and that would be considered as a 15+ series, but now they have to censor those scenes with the always mysterious lights, steam or other things...

Now talking in the VN's ground, normally you see censorship in the h-scenes, but there are uncensored versions of some, my guess is that those were uncensored when they got translated by a company for distribution in another country or the like, but for certain I'm not sure, and there's Doujin too, you got to see all kinds of censorship in them, but the great majority are non-sense, like that little black line or some transparent gray squares, so my question goes for them too. I know that some scanlation groups edit the doujins to create "uncensored" versions, so don't know if some of this is their doing but I doubt it.

Finally, with all my chit-chat i have to ask if there's any International law about this topic, maybe something against pedophilia or the like, but again I don't know anything about this.

With all that said, I'll be really grateful if some of you people can solve some of my doubts and correct me if something of the above is wrong.

[Steve]

I'm not sure how exactly it works in Japan, but I know a little how it works in Europe. Firstly, there is no international law (I don't think there can even be international law on anything at all as every country has its own law system, maybe there are some deals between countries (like European union and such) that they pass the exact law in all of them but if one country doesn't pass the law, I don't think anyone from different country can sue you based on that).

So in Europe there is no need for censor anywhere, however in my country every pornographic materials are 18+ and cannot be sold to younger audience, that would probably apply to Japanese imported games too, but it really isn't concern to me as I am over 18 and I don't work in distribution of such materials so I might not know much about that either.

However what I tried to dig some info is what you mentioned - lolicon and censor there. There are European countries such as United Kingdom or Netherlands (and others) that have exact law against sexual graphical representation of minors under 18. And in those countries you have to be careful not to get caught with such material (probably even normal High School VN's in some cases), because then it would depend on the judge if it is or isn't actual minor displayed there (If it is 1000 years loli, you can probably use that for defense but I can't tell how it would work). But in other Europeans countries not affected by this laws, you should not be arrested for something like that.

And the censor - as there is no law there, it doesn't matter if it is censored or not, often you see on sankaku or gelbooru an image from original Japanese author with censor line or mosaic and then someone from other part of the world will make the uncensored version of that.

That is what I know about it, if someone knows more then please share more, I will just keep hoping my country will not pass any of those stupid laws.

Edit: I found this article on wikipedia, can't really tell if all there is true but has the laws explained for some of European countries and for US and aurstalia and new zeland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors

[Wolfscythe]

Thanks for the reply, following your link found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon

http://en.wikipedia....graphy_in_Japan

It seems they censor this contents because they find it obscene, just that.

Also you're right, there can't be something like an international law, just deals between countries, like the free commerce treats, and the regional laws are the only ones that can apply to each case in particular.

It appears that's what there is about this topic for the moment, but with stupid laws in line like PIPA and SOPA clones trying to be approved (that will never be approved because of the above stated), it can shake the waters of some countries to make their own laws (mostly stupid laws) on this matter, let's just hope that doesn't occur....

[harry_kinomoto]

On Censorship

I think Japan has some laws that make it mandatory - even in works depicting obvious and graphic sexual activity otherwise. Doesn't make sense personally if you ask me - any damage that could be done by looking at porn won't be undone if certain parts aren't visualised...

That said, Moekou did explain this law is still in effect only because of the conservative Japanese mindset:

This attitude is also a reason why, for example, porn is still censored in Japan even though the Western countries that demanded this in the first place have long since stopped doing it. No politician is willing to stand out out of fear of being targeted.

On International Laws on Paedophillia

I'm unsure if there is anything *international*, but as far as I can recall I don't know of a single country that hasn't already written it into the law somehow. Most commonly this is done by declaring that consent to sexual activity by anyone under 18 cannot be taken as "valid" - hence why anyone who attempts sexual activity with minors has categorically committed a criminal offence, even if the child supposedly "agreed". It could of course be argued that there are some very mature minors that should be allowed to make the decision without fear of repercussions, but this is the exception to the rule. When you consider the damage that could be done by the act to kids who aren't mature enough, it's better to err on the side of caution, hence why I feel this is a sensible law to have.

On Lolis in VNs

The subject of underage girls comes up so often in in the VN fanbase, and with it the associated term "lolicon", that the question of paedophillia arises alot. However, given the severity of the term "paedophile", I think it's important that people not using it lightly, and understand the differences between the two terms.

To be perfectly honest, I think some of Japan's fascination with girls with supposedly underage proportions is cultural. I'm not sure what's the best way to explain this but my friend did one mention: Oriental girls don't look to age as fast as Western girls do. I don't know whether or not there's much actual truth behind that statement, but it's interesting to note how people seem to think Orientals in general more petite, and indeed to some, they have smaller breasts (hence the "pettanko" or flat-chest). And if my years of lurking in other fancircles is anything to go by, some people do like to make as if body proportion auto-equates to loli, or, indeed, IRL underage. Let's be clear on this, it doesn't - Zero no Tsukaima's Louise Valliere doesn't lose a few years of age just 'cos

goes so well with her..

I think the same argument also applies to personality. People seem to think only underage girls are the only people who can feel confused, vulnerable and need protection. Again, this is blatantly untrue (and if it isn't consider myself 6 years old). Obviously, in VNs, just making someone appear childlike can accentuate these traits hence why everyone in VNs who are like that just so happens to be "loli". Honestly speaking, most "lolis" imo act WAAAAY older than what they are stated to be - both in terms of raw intelligence and emotional maturity.

tl;dr: I think it's important people be clear about what they like. Fiction has ways of accentuating reality - don't confuse them with real life! As long as people bear that in mind, as far as I'm concerned the whole preferences thing becomes as inconsequential as declaring you like people with glasses, underwear of a certain colour, and long dark hair!

[SakuraFreak]

First, an opinion from a real lolicon, me

I like because i think the Drawings are more cute than bigger(not older) characters, i never ever imagined as a real person, and not because i like real children in a sexual way.

If you mix Real Life with Fiction, the problem will be with the person itself and how the society interact with them.

_________

2nd> a Technical opnion

in a simple way Loli in japan isn't banned because it's considered only as drawing, anyways have a rule in japan that the character can't be -18. if not you'll have future problems

(there goes a funny thing, how elementary students have 18 years? Anyways is acceptable since they have 18 years and are drawings of course. Because it they doesnt put the Year of birth too in games)

___

In some countries like in Germany loli drawings are considered pedophilia.

Is the same logic as they use with Wolfeinstein for example. More or less senseless but have some positive points in any way.

[Steve]

Well on the topic, if you have doubts about any law and such, you need to find how it works in your specific country, how they handle lolicon manga and games, how they handle censorship of pornography materials.

But even in countries where it is against law... you will not put posters of naked lolis somewhere when public can see it, if you have it on your harddrive (and you are not under some investigation for whatever reason) you should be fine with anything as nobody is tracking this (everyone is however probably tracking real child pornography and sites dedicated to that). But you will not get in trouble by visiting gelbooru, maybe in those countries with laws agains it try not visiting it in work or school And if someone gets to your harddrive and investigate it, I think lolis would be the least harming thing (at least in my case) with terabytes of downloaded music, games, movies etc.

And as for sexual loli attraction, someone liking younger appearance, body proportions and smaller breasts will not go outside and rape some child who looks like that, just like all others who are attracted by whatever they like, big breasted busty milfs or whatever, they will not go and randomly rape some mother who looks like that. Yet everyone even on TV tries to emphasize on this sexiness and boobs and you see boobs in every other American show and the same people try to ban lolicon. What is the difference if some maniac rapes 15yo petite girl or 18yo busty girl, it is terrible crime in both scenarios and who is the victim doesn't change that.

[harry_kinomoto]

Yet everyone even on TV tries to emphasize on this sexiness and boobs and you see boobs in every other American show and the same people try to ban lolicon.

The way you put it, it sounds suspiciously like a case of the attitudes that people have towards other "deviant" sexual practices like homosexuality. You're probably right and I guess I shouldn't be surprised - it's not something people understand, and when people don't understand it, any reason to ostracise them will be used.

And as for sexual loli attraction, someone liking younger appearance, body proportions and smaller breasts will not go outside and rape some child who looks like that, just like all others who are attracted by whatever they like, big breasted busty milfs or whatever, they will not go and randomly rape some mother who looks like that.

We who are mature enough to tell the difference between fact and fiction tend to hold this truth as self-evident and perhaps to a certain extent it is. But we need to understand why people think like this. Put it this way - we're discussing VNs in a forum about VNs, so it's reasonable to assume that we like VNs and would do the same IRL. I've got a Youtube that showcases piano videos, so it's reasonable to assume I like playing it and that I do it a lot IRL. So if people end up spending loads of time looking at (what looks like) naked children, people tend to jump to conclusions pretty fast.... It's indicative of how fiercely protective society tends to be of its young, which tend to be more vulnerable.

What is the difference if some maniac rapes 15yo petite girl or 18yo busty girl, it is terrible crime in both scenarios and who is the victim doesn't change that.

It actually does - again, another indicator of how protective society is of its more vulnerable young. That being said I think you raised an excellent point by mentioning mass media influence with big boobs and all. The thing is there are certain periods in life during which people should be thinking more about what new things they're going to learn in school tomorrow as opposed to how big their boobs are. So in a way, it does make sense that crimes against the young would be punished more, since while the 18yo has reached sexual maturity, the 15yo hasn't even started learning about it - so the consequences against her would be even more dire.

I also note how here in the UK, a few years back there was a great debate about how the media had over-glamourised super-skinny "size-zero" models, which had encouraged normal, healthy girls to lose unhealthy amounts of weight and become anorexic. There's also been a lot of controversy over how over-idealised Barbie dolls sold to kids could be conveying the same message. So many worries people have to deal with nowadays aside from their normal everyday lives! Studies have actually shown how the age of sexual maturity is actually becoming increasingly early over time (ie, kids are literally, having to "grow up faster"). If I totally had it my way, I'd restrict depictions of sexual activity quite heavily, though I acknowledge this isn't something that can be solved by another set of stupid laws. I think the problem is one with modern society - and highlights it as a very worrying state of affairs!!

[Steve]

Yeah, this all I would say comes from inability of modern society to accept things they don't understand, are not familiar with or don't like.

You can see it on the internet, people arguing to death if xbox360 is better or ps3 is better, spamming on fan forums of a game that it is rubbish even though nobody from the fans care about this one person not liking it, hating on specific fan bases, people randomly commenting on anime or VN videos on youtube how pathetic it is liking something like that.

I am pretty resilient to this already and I am not afraid to say what I like, I am not ashamed to admit I like lolis, I like VNs, anime, FPS shooters, mmorpgs. And then I can only laugh on stupid people that can't move over it.

Actually there was funny story a while ago, some congresswoman (or whatever) in America played world of warcraft and some idiot said that she is not capable to fulfill her political role because she plays mmorpg and "wastes her life there". Its like saying people who like drinking juice are not capable of political function or people who like reading history books or whatever.

And if someone stupid like that found out that some "important" person is for example playing visual novels, he would start about how he cannot be trusted and he will eat your children because in some visual novels you can eat children! (lol I dunno, maybe there is one like that, not my favorite genre I must say though )

All this is based on the fact that majority of people in the world are batshit stupid (and that is why in my country and I guess in lot of others, there is a sticker on coffee "warning:hot!" or actually on a milk box, there is "allergy warning: contains milk!"). We can't however do anything about it.

[俊 (Jun)]

It appears that almost everyone on these forums are pedophiles that need to be locked up and killed for the safety of our children. No excuses! XD

[SakuraFreak]

Made me remember, a useless conversation with friends.

★***: 変態じゃない！！「私わ２Ｄロリ派だ」！？　(You aren't pervert!! But you have a 2D lolita complex??）

芳***: 一言葉だけ (only one word)

芳***: だってそれは 「アート」です　(Because, this is "Art".)

Ar***: ﾋｨｰ(((ﾟДﾟ)))ｶﾞﾀｶﾞﾀ

★***: ｷﾀ*･゜ﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･゜(ﾟ∀ﾟ)ﾟ･*:.｡. .｡.:*･゜ﾟ･*!!!!

lol, ok besides them that are 2Dlolicon/hentai too;

As i've readed in some eroge(don't remember what one),because "wastes her life there" (World of Warcraft quotation from steverowland's post).

"Everything that we can enjoy, are mere pleasure to ourselves, that will be only in our minds and memory."

Is the same as watch TV and a novel like most people do, or waste your time in facebook;

Anyways the govern don't wanna find The real answer to "fix" their society, but find something to blame because its easier.

And what they will blame? Of course in what they don't like. For example, have novels with strong languague and images... even if is still 8:00PM? But they never gave a shiesh to these details, of course they will blame about games, comics and animations.

[Wolfscythe]

Hohoo~ don't expected so many responses ^^

Anyway, going on with this, it's the same on all places, like satanizing japanese animation, if you watch anime then your childish and immature, because it's for children and then, you're a pervert because they're pornographic cartoons, what I'm trying to emphasize is not the fact that maybe we're really perverts XD (still I believe in all sexual related like a sane and natural part of the human being) but the fact that the two of the statements are contrary to each other, that's just to say the simplest example to see that they criticize without knowing anything about the topic. In a way, I think that people that really like these things and of course some of them got here, to this forum, is because of their own interest and liking to VN's, anime, etc. and not because they're self-claimed super otakus with the greatest like sense in the world and all that they don't like must be crap. What I've seen so far in my staying over here is that all are really nice to each other, not sure if that's because they don't know the other well enough to criticize each other, but that's my point here, all here are tolerant and try to see the others points of view before judge, in a way maybe VN' are the cure against intolerance(?)

In the words of the legendary coach of Gunbuster Koichiro Ohta: "Think and then do. And then decide for yourself if it was interesting or not." or something like that.

[Steve]

What I've seen so far in my staying over here is that all are really nice to each other, not sure if that's because they don't know the other well enough to criticize each other, but that's my point here, all here are tolerant and try to see the others points of view before judge, in a way maybe VN' are the cure against intolerance(?)

Well it is usually like that with small groups of interest, if you have a smaller guild for specific game, you will most likely find they are nice to each other and respect each others opinions.

But when you go to games forum like nfohump or others, you will find much more people defending their own game and bashing other people's favorite game.

Same for anime, on anime forums you will find people arguing which one is better and what not, because there is so much of it and it is very spread between people.

Visual novels are however still not even close to popularity of anime in west and there isn't a great number of them translated either so there isn't so big selection and people still stick together as one for the sake of VNs.

Sadly if they are to become more popular as most of us want and try to accomplish by spreading them in many ways, it will also bring those bad people in and those might start flaming about what genre is the best etc.

Now in VNs I noticed it is very friendly environment between all groups, people who read only English translated, people who read even in Japanese and even translators who sacrifice their time to bring us such awesomeness.

We will see how long this can last.

[Wolfscythe]

Well it is usually like that with small groups of interest, if you have a smaller guild for specific game, you will most likely find they are nice to each other and respect each others opinions.

But when you go to games forum like nfohump or others, you will find much more people defending their own game and bashing other people's favorite game.

Same for anime, on anime forums you will find people arguing which one is better and what not, because there is so much of it and it is very spread between people.

Visual novels are however still not even close to popularity of anime in west and there isn't a great number of them translated either so there isn't so big selection and people still stick together as one for the sake of VNs.

Got a point there, time ago was looking for material on Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu and got in a forum discussing this series and the LN's where they originated, all people there thought about it like a good anime, but it's the case of a not so well known series, if you go to a discussion about something more popular you will get people arguing to each other about if it's crap or a masterpiece.

Also I've seen people that enjoys watching anime but when they find something that dislikes them says it as it is, but doesn't goes over others for liking what they dislikes, and even liking good stories can't stand to read VN's because they're too long for them.

As for the popularity in the future of VN's, we have disappearences of companies like Hirameki and some new ones like JAST, and things that appear to be immposible tasks for fan translators like in the Kimi Nozo case, so it is really uncertain. Of course there will be some rise, but who knows if will be enough to really have an impact on all this.

[meru]

In Japan even 18+ material has to be censored - it is illegal to show uncensored genitalia.

So yeah, the uncensored vn have either been uncensored for release overseas, or uncensored by fans.

I think this Japanese law is very interesting, and may possibly be linked to the extreme 'creativity' often seen in Japanese pornography!

As for lolicon, it's currently legal, but there has been talk about bringing in laws banning cartoons showing minors, due to international pressure.

Personally, I don't want them to ban loli/shota. As a (reasonably) sane adult who actually hates kids in real life, I do not connect it in any way with real life paedophilia. There are also various theories about these characters as 'representations' i.e. They are NOT representations of a real child, but are representations of concepts, such as innocence, naivety, etc.

This is where people who don't have any experience of anime find it hard to understand, as they aren't 'versed' in the meanings behind the images. In other words we look at a bishojo and go MOEEEEE, they look at it and go 'wtf is this bubblegum coloured cartoon with eyes the size of its face'. Having been immersed in the world of anime for years, I find lolicon 'normal'. Yet my friends are absolutely shocked/sickened when they realise this stuff exists. Anyway, this is just one of the theories out there, and I'm sure there are many more that could argue for/against lolicon.

...Also I don't really know what I was responding to there, I was kind of just typing out my thoughts as they came into my head XD

[Xehanort]

About lolicon:

It's so weird, I live in the country where drugs and prostitution is allowed. "Not for sale for people under 18 years old" my a**.

Drugs, that's reasonable, but sex shops here? I once entered one some months ago and they greeted me nicely, not asking what age I was.

I look quite young, so it's very weird. I saw the MOST weird videos in my life.

But animated porn of young looking people? Why isn't that allowed by the law? But I always saw Shin-Chan showing his ass on children-channels and hearing him saying explicit things?

And what is young looking to everyone? A 20 year old in an anime can look 10 and vice versa.

To me: Every form of art, eroge is art, should stay (and be) allowed.

For example: If you write a fictional book about your "horrible" ex wife, she raped the children many times, she abused everyone according to your book..

She can't go in court to you, because the book is fictional.

Soooo, why isn't lolicon allowed, then. It's also fictional, right?

A comic character is not a real person.

As long as it's fictional, and the character ISN'T based from a non-fictional character in this case (pedophilia is a sensitive case in almost each country (and it should stay like that)), there's no problem.

To me: As long as you don't show your "hobby" in public and don't rape real children, everything's fine. Just like drugs, alcohol and porn here in my country.

I even think that if they would sell eroge, that it's going to reduce the rating of child-rape in my country and in any other country.

If things are illegal, people tend to do those things. It's a kick and it's more likely that you're going to try that out.

If it isn't, like drugs here, people don't give a sh*t about it.

People are like that, it's human nature.

Some months ago, I read an article about an experiment. They wanted to legalize visual pedophilia to see if real pedophilia would reduce (and read the quotation under this paragraph).

I was like: WTF, isn't visual allowed?! But it's art, and art in any form, no matter what it is, shouldn't be touched by reformers. That's what I've learned at school.

We can talk shit and paint shit about each religion in public, make parodies of persons in every way without their permission in public, but painting fake children having sexual intercourse is illegal in private?

What kind of logic is that?

"In a recent case, after viewing the images in question, which were fully drawn at a computer, the court opined that the virtual child pornography images not in the sense of criminal law. "All images can be termed as (pornographic) (three dimensional) cartoons, animations, or drawings. The court concludes that the average viewer is immediately obvious that the event is not real and that the images are manipulated images and not realistic.""

And that's how it should be, in every country.

Real pedophiles, making porn and/or spreading it of children, should immediately be arrested and go to jail. Let them teach a lesson.

But people who like lolicon, who don't harm any children, but they just like the art of it or are enjoying cute imoutos at home, should be left alone.

The world got better things to do than arresting artists and fans, instead of real criminals or ongoing dumb wars!

P.S.: Before people are asking why I'm raging this much: Did I say this because I'm a lolicon fan myself? No, I love every kind of eroge as long as I like the story, no matter what genre.

I just can't stand seeing people making ridiculous laws for something's that fake instead of being busy with réál problems in every society.