Good Machine translators?

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

I'm getting tired of waiting for things to get translated. I can't wait for Grisaia no Meikyuu anymore, I'm going to take the challenge of reading it with a machine translator. I think VN reader is the best one out there, but I never used it. Is there better ones than VN reader? And if VN reader is really the best one which dictionaries should I configure it with?

[Mephisto]

Machine translators don't work as far as I know, you could try the atlas thing I guess? Having kanji look up can be helpful, but for that to be readable you still need to have a good understanding of how japanese works and how the kanji is being used in the situation.

[seventhfonist425]

Uhh, that's really tough. Can't say I really recommend going through with a machine. Like Mephisto said, it takes some understanding of Japanese. You're definitely gonna be walking into some trouble if you don't know what you're doing. (If I remember correctly, entire Grisaia series itself is pretty tough to read in Japanese.) Chances are, the translated lines won't make any sense at all... but, at the very least, I could help with set up. I recommend using Translation Aggregator and ITH, the text hooker.

There are guides online that can help you set up using Atlas as a translator:
http://kipchu.wordpress.com/2012/08/02/visual-novel-help-translation-tools-for-playing-untranslated-visual-novels/

 

I also agree that ITH is just easier to handle, so you can do whatever you want with agth (it does the same thing as ITH, really.) I mostly only skimmed the guide, but it does look pretty good. It's likely going to get you uhh, somewhat what you're expecting, but just be careful about really weird translations. Machines have a really bad habit of mixing up words with pieces of grammar.

 

I don't have experience at all with VN reader, and I don't know how it works, so I don't really have any opinion or say at all about it. If you wanna hear more about VN reader, I sorta just recommend waiting for someone with experience with it to respond.

[Guest]

^ Pretty much what seventh said.

ITH+ Altas and translation aggregator.

 

The translation is ... well it's a machine translating so you can't expect the best but it's enough to understand what's going on 

(Most of the time)

[Sakimichi]

There are 50 lines submitted on Visual Novel Reader.

Also, it makes use of ATLAS and LEC machine translation with an online-shared translation/dictionary so it would improve machine translation. It also supports infoseek and excite online translation which is superior to Google translation.

 

If you want to know how to set it up I made tutorials that covers basic and advance usage.

Basic

You can just skip the registration part if you are not a translator.

 

Advance part 1, part 2

The advance part covers text to speech integration using Voiceroid as well as other things that comes with VNR.

[Rackshen]

Hmmm, my opinion is basically as that of seventhfonist425. However, there are somethings that I want to note:

1. It's better off if you had some knowledge in the Japanese language itself. If you choose to go down the "ITH + TA route" you can even toggle Mecab + Jparser - they can help you understand more of each Japanese words that ITH hooked (which are really useful if ATLAS couldn't translate a part of a sentence).

2. LEC Power Translator - now this shit is really good at times (even better than ATLAS), but also sucks when it comes to standard sentences that ATLAS can handle without any sweat. I recommend using it together with the combination above.

 

This combo only failed me a few times (mostly when ITH doesn't hook properly), so I really recommend it to anyone who got tired of waiting for English patches.

[Bolverk]

You can use atlas + ITH. You will basically be reading decomposed japanese into engrish. You basically have to analyse each sentence like you were completely new to japanese. But only with english

Imo you might as well use a dozen hours reading some grammar and practice particles. Then read start with JParser (TA) + ITH and ATLAS as a crutch. Depends on the individual but given some time 50 hours I suppose. You will start being better than Atlas, because it is simply not consistent in it's translations.

Sometimes machine translators works great, sometimes bad, sometimes normal looking text is bs, sometimes it can't translate. Mostly it works though enough so you understand what is going on in the story.

You will read as slow as a snail at first though. So you might want to just do what Rackshen recommends. If you can enjoy the MT's, then it's no problem really. Enjoy.

[castor212]

There is no "good" machine translation. Only "acceptable".

 

I personally think you'd better off learning jap or use jparser and mecab.

[shcboomer]

Pretty sure a MT won't get you through Grisaia no Meikyuu...

[Yeah Way]

LOL, when I saw the title of the thread, I actually thought it was some sort of April Fool's joke! xD

 

No, there are none, at all. It'd be faster to go to Japan and become fluent; come back, and then read a VN, rather than try to read one with a machine translator.

[RusAnon]

Grisaia and MT will not work together. Especially all that military slang and makina-ben.

You could probably read simpler stuff with fine-tuned ATLAS, but if you want to enjoy jokes and serious stuff, you should actually learn Japanese. Its not as hard as some people make it sound, especially if you rely on text hookers and dictionary lookup like JParser.

[maliksusanto]

I Use Atlas + ITH + TA, but it's not perfect (What do we expect from an machine translator?)

You wont get the entire story with this, but it still acceptable for me

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

Ok per your suggestions seems like the best way is really to learn japanese. So when I have a break from college I'm going to dig in into Heisig's books. Thanks to "Remembering the Kana" I already mastered Hiragana and Katakana, come at me then Kanji!!

[zoom909]

Ok per your suggestions seems like the best way is really to learn japanese. So when I have a break from college I'm going to dig in into Heisig's books. Thanks to "Remembering the Kana" I already mastered Hiragana and Katakana, come at me then Kanji!!

I'm only curious, but what made you decide on the Heisig method?

[Raidou]

Wow, I didn't even know machine translators even existed. Man, I'm totally out of the loop.

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

I'm only curious, but what made you decide on the Heisig method?

I saw the "Lets Learn Japanane Together: Super Challenge 2013" thread.

https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/621-learn-japanese-together-super-challenge-2013/?hl=%2Bjapanese+%2Bchallenge

[cryofrzd]

Machine translation doesn't work for one reason, natural languages are ambiguous. That's also why computers often are described as stupid, as they just follow fixed rules.

 

Google translate (the most known machine translator) just uses a big text-database and apply statistical heuristics for translating, it doesn't even bother the syntax/grammar. The result is this.

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

Machine translation doesn't work for one reason, natural languages are ambiguous. That's also why computers often are described as stupid, as they just follow fixed rules.

 

Google translate (the most known machine translator) just uses a big text-database and apply statistical heuristics for translating, it doesn't even bother the syntax/grammar. The result is this.

LOL XD

[castor212]

For guyz using anki and Heisig: Do you kick it up until the 3000th?

[Bolverk]

For guyz using anki and Heisig: Do you kick it up until the 3000th?

I don't think a lot of people kick it up to 3000. Most people will get bored by reviewing kanji's by the time you've reached 2200 cards. Adding more cards then is hardly a good idea. That was what I felt anyway when I reached 2200.

 

Besides, heisig is a method for learning kanji. Heiseig doesn't learn you the kanji. It learning you how to connect 1 english word to each kanji and most importantly: Imo how to see the difference between each kanji and catogorize them by memonics rather than only repeated expoture.

 

Anyway there is no single perfect method for learning that works for everyone. Whatever method you choose will drive towards mastery. As long as it's not complete bs haha.

[castor212]

I don't think a lot of people kick it up to 3000. Most people will get bored by reviewing kanji's by the time you've reached 2200 cards. Adding more cards then is hardly a good idea. That was what I felt anyway when I reached 2200.

 

Besides, heisig is a method for learning kanji. Heiseig doesn't learn you the kanji. It learning you how to connect 1 english word to each kanji and most importantly: Imo how to see the difference between each kanji and catogorize them by memonics rather than only repeated expoture.

 

Anyway there is no single perfect method for learning that works for everyone. Whatever method you choose will drive towards mastery. As long as it's not complete bs haha.

So, after 2200 is not the 'official', usually used kanji?

[raphael512]

I think you should use translator aggregator + ITH + atlas . but sometimes atlas translation sucks..so in the translator aggregator , use the Bing Translator

[Pabloc]

So, after 2200 is not the 'official', usually used kanji?

No, after those ~2200 there are Kanji that Japanese government decided are above the highschool-level. Jouyou Kanji are the most essential characters used in everyday life. Real Life, that is. They aren't necessarily the most common characters that appear in VNs. Actually, they cover plenty of Kanji you will probably never encounter in eroge (like those used in names of prefectures for example).

 

That's why I wouldn't really recommend starting with them. It will be pretty sad when you will finish cramming those ~2200 Kanji and start a random VN, only to discover that it uses ~250 characters that weren't covered by Jouyou and suddenly you can't understand anything.

Oh, and putting them before Kana is simply the most illogical thing you could do, I seriously don't know what the author of that guide-thread linked earlier was thinking. Hiragana and Katakana are the first things you should learn, they are an absolutely vital foundation.

 

As long as you know grammar well, you can read VNs even without memorizing a single Kanji - MeCab and/or JParser can deal with them nicely (and help with vocabulary too). Learning Kanji seriously increases your reading speed, but it's not absolutely essential (unlike grammar). Grammar is easier than Kanji and takes much less time (depending on your talent and dedication, learning it decently during summer break is quite realistic). You need it anyway, so you might as well start with the most vital stuff (you can learn Kanji later, or do both at the same time, why not?). Also, I'd say that learning-while-reading is much more efficient than cramming government-approved list of characters, since you will be memorizing only those Kanji that actually appear in VNs (a lot of them will be from the jouyou list, but not all).

 

Of course, different methods work for different people, so you should pick one that suits you best and stick to it. In the end, you will need both Kanji and grammar.

 

On a final note, most people mentioned this already, but machine translators do not work. At all. Atless, Bling, Gooble - it's all the same shit. Avoid them, unless you like deciphering random gibberish that has nothing to do with original text.

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

No, after those ~2200 there are Kanji that Japanese government decided are above the highschool-level. Jouyou Kanji are the most essential characters used in everyday life. Real Life, that is. They aren't necessarily the most common characters that appear in VNs. Actually, they cover plenty of Kanji you will probably never encounter in eroge (like those used in names of prefectures for example).

 

That's why I wouldn't really recommend starting with them. It will be pretty sad when you will finish cramming those ~2200 Kanji and start a random VN, only to discover that it uses ~250 characters that weren't covered by Jouyou and suddenly you can't understand anything.

Oh, and putting them before Kana is simply the most illogical thing you could do, I seriously don't know what the author of that guide-thread linked earlier was thinking. Hiragana and Katakana are the first things you should learn, they are an absolutely vital foundation.

 

As long as you know grammar well, you can read VNs even without memorizing a single Kanji - MeCab and/or JParser can deal with them nicely (and help with vocabulary too). Learning Kanji seriously increases your reading speed, but it's not absolutely essential (unlike grammar). Grammar is easier than Kanji and takes much less time (depending on your talent and dedication, learning it decently during summer break is quite realistic). You need it anyway, so you might as well start with the most vital stuff (you can learn Kanji later, or do both at the same time, why not?). Also, I'd say that learning-while-reading is much more efficient than cramming government-approved list of characters, since you will be memorizing only those Kanji that actually appear in VNs (a lot of them will be from the jouyou list, but not all).

 

Of course, different methods work for different people, so you should pick one that suits you best and stick to it. In the end, you will need both Kanji and grammar.

 

On a final note, most people mentioned this already, but machine translators do not work. At all. Atless, Bling, Gooble - it's all the same shit. Avoid them, unless you like deciphering random gibberish that has nothing to do with original text.

And where do I find those kanji commonly used in VNs? But don't misunterstand, I'm not learning japanese just because of VNs, in the future I plan to study abroad in Japan for a year, and be a trainee there as well. And someday move there.

[Pabloc]

^ Ah, that's a different story. I'd still go for grammar first, since it's necessary anyway and will let you start reading VNs earlier, but you will definitely need to grind Jouyou Kanji (and probably some more) as well. I'm surprised that you even thought of using machine translators in this case though.

 

As for Kanji used in VNs, you just encounter them while reading. What you bump into depends on your choice of titles - you'll find different characters in SF, fantasy, nukiges, or slice-of-life.