Visual Novel Lexicon

[Beato]

I wanted to add that Shoujo/Shonen/Josei/seinen are not referring to genres but demographics. The classification is determined by the magazine the series runs in. A romance between a girl and many pretty boys is a shonen if it runs in a shonen magazine and an action series with tons of muscular men is a shoujo if it runs in a shoujo magazine.

[Guest]

I agree, there is for example "the world god only knows".

But I think it's the other way around. These are published in shoujo or shonen magazins because they are aimed at a certain audience. You'll never see Naruto in Shojo magazine.

You're right it's not exactly a genre and I tried to define shonen and shoujo according to their audience.

[Beato]

Yeah but sometimes things get published in shoujo or shonen magazines that you might not expect. That's why the only things that determines whether something is shonen or shoujo is the magazine.

Kuroshitsuji for example is mostly popular with female readers but it is still a shonen as its published in a shonen magazine.

[Guest]

I'll try to change things then.

[zoom909]

 

There are some typos under family titles

 

 

 Please decide whether you will hyphenate -san or not. <- I've never heard of Onee alone for example. I'll do it if i can be serated from sam/sama/chan.

 

 

 

I simply meant choose between writing "oniichan" or "onii-chan", as I recall half were one way and half were the other way.

 

Well ecchi as H stands for the first letter of Hentai so it basically means the same thing, but is shortened, it would probably be P if you take Pervert as the whole thing, but people wouldn't get it.

Most of the times in anime when the girl screams ecchi instead of hentai, it means the same thing.

It mostly depends on the voice tone and such, if she says it while laughing "oniichan no ecchi, ahahahaha" she probably means "naughty" but if she screams it when someone touches her or something, she is most likely saying "pervert".

 

(I watch most exclusively these types of anime so I know about it - and not sure if its actually used in normal Japanese speech, all I know is anime xD)

I can understand why you'd make that mistake, but it's more than a shortening, it's also a milder less insulting word.  And I'm not sure that tone of voice should affect the definition of a word.  If I yelled "Steve, you silly goose" vs. "Steve you ****-eating son of a b****" at the same volume, the meaning would still be different.

 

Yeah I wanted to make a difference beetween ecchi and hentai because those are cleary two different genres of anime/manga.

 

But as you said, when it's used in anime's for example it has the same meaning.

But only one of those words is the equivalent of English "pervert", so I don't see how that can be true. 

 

in school days, ecchi is actually more or less used for "have sex"

That is true too.  And it is often abbreviated in manga as "H".

 

And I know people think that "H" stood for "Hentai".  For a long time, I did as well, until I talked to a Japanese guy in college about this.

 

Anyway I will drop the ecchi/etchi vs. hentai discussion now so you can work on the lexicon, it's good enough the way it is, because you really are concerned about the genres we use them for instead of the literal meaning.  If someone is studying Japanese and wants to know more about this, you can PM me.

[Darklord Rooke]

*Fufufu* I see you had trouble defining adventure games. It's the genre everybody has trouble defining.

 

EDIT: Jesus Christ guys, what did you do to the JRPG definition XD. I wouldn't bother defining it too much. There's a group of people who aren't aware about the origin of JRPGs who try and make it it's own separate genre. Don't bother, you'll just get yourselves in a tangle. 

 

I'm going through your list of JRPG characteristics:

-turnbased - Nup. 

-Linear storytelling - Nup. 

-Choices that matter - element of Western RPGs as well

-anime and manga characters - art design doesn't affect a game's genre.

 

JRPG - RPG from Japan. Simple, neat and done.

 

************************************************

 

A soundtrack is not a requirement of a VN, and I'm not sure why it's mentioned. It's used in modern VNs as a tool to enhance a player's experience, but many older VNs do not have a soundtrack. You don't need 'you are presented with a setting, and a plotline.' A setting and a plotline come with the 'story', it's quite difficult to tell a story without these things. Character sprites are not a requirement of a VN, the fact that some use photographic backgrounds is not needed, and the idea that visual novels (a term describing the gameplay of a game) can also be listed using terms describing a games content, is also not needed.

[Steve]

I can understand why you'd make that mistake, but it's more than a shortening, it's also a milder less insulting word.  And I'm not sure that tone of voice should affect the definition of a word.  If I yelled "Steve, you silly goose" vs. "Steve you ****-eating son of a b****" at the same volume, the meaning would still be different.

 

No those sentences are not using the same word.

But there is lot of words even in english that can mean exact opposite depending on the tone and situation used, like for example "fuck". I am talking about a sentence using the same word but different tone - which make them express different thing and change their definition.

And I think ecchi used in anime/vn/manga is one of them, it can be used as a word expressing lewdness in a fun and silly way or it can be use as an insult strongly assaulting the person, it can be used to refer to any sexual thing or it can be used to refer to a disagreeable stuff, it can only mean sexy - all depending on the voice and context - which would then most likely affect the translation, because the word in english for example doesnt work the same way, you would use different word for calling someone lewd in a silly way than calling someone actual pervert, but you can use (and girls in anime do) ecchi for both.

 

But another point is lexicon doesn't mean a translation, because translation is content dependent.

In lexicon you are trying to describe general idea behind the world (referring to sexual things), why is it used in a genre name and what are the characteristics of the genre, what is the origin (shortened Hentai).

 

How to translate ecchi in actual sentence isn't really the important part there since the lexicon is not meant for translators but more like for people reading forum posts in english where people talk about stuff like that. And for that matter I would agree that ecchi and hentai are completely different things, because hentai refers to 18+ content with genitals and all and ecchi usually refers to sexual content that is not 18 restricted (kinky clothes etc xD).

[Darklord Rooke]

 

But another point is lexicon doesn't mean a translation, because translation is content dependent.

In lexicon you are trying to describe general idea behind the world (referring to sexual things), why is it used in a genre name and what are the characteristics of the genre, what is the origin (shortened Hentai).

 

 

I turn my back for 2 seconds and someone contacts Oxford dictionary to change the meaning of the word 'lexicon' *crosses arms and taps foot*

 

Half the trouble with the definitions in the lexicon stems from the authors trying to include the characteristics of the genre. 

[Steve]

I turn my back for 2 seconds and someone contacts Oxford dictionary to change the meaning of the word 'lexicon' *crosses arms and taps foot*

 

Half the trouble with the definitions in the lexicon stems from the authors trying to include the characteristics of the genre. 

 

should I look into my lexicon to see what lexicon means?!?!?! we are having lexiconception (not to be confused with regular conception).

 

 

But I think including the characteristics of the genre is the most important part in this matter, because it is all about vns and anime so having an actual meaning of the world doesn't really mean anything to the beginner reading it, having characteristics of the genre/demographic/category/tag can help a lot (took me a while to get myself oriented in the anime tags after I started, the lexicon on anidb helped me a lot (for example entry for shounen).

So yeah...

[Darklord Rooke]

should I look into my lexicon to see what lexicon means?!?!?! we are having lexiconception (not to be confused with regular conception).

 

 

But I think including the characteristics of the genre is the most important part in this matter, because it is all about vns and anime so having an actual meaning of the world doesn't really mean anything to the beginner reading it, having characteristics of the genre/demographic/category/tag can help a lot (took me a while to get myself oriented in the anime tags after I started, the lexicon on anidb helped me a lot (for example entry for shounen).

So yeah...

 

You can if you wish .

 

Having characteristics of the genre CAN be helpful if they follow two important guidelines. A) They're accurate, and B ) they're not redundant. Things like "J-RPGs use turn based combat sequences with linear storytelling style although, this is not always the case" doesn't help. It's actually VERY confusing. The sky is blue, but it actually isn't. It doesn't tell you anything, does it? This is an example of the first scenario, where inaccurate information is presented, and then a contradictory statement is offered to try and fix it, which makes the whole thing a mess.

 

An example of redundant information would be 'Often you're presented with a setting.' It's a characteristic of the genre. It's also padding and really not helpful. 'You're protagonist is often presented with clothes, although... this is not always the case.' :3 If you're going to pad, at least make it interesting.

 

Short and sweet is the way to go unless they're VERY familiar with what they're talking about. For example:

 

Adventure games – definition – games which feature puzzle-solving and exploration gameplay within a narrative framework. Types of puzzles typically included are dialogue, exploration and logic puzzles. DONE! No more is needed. It describes everything and it's pretty self-explanatory/

[Guest]

I'll make some changes regarding the J-RPG definition and rewrite according to the remarks you both made.

The update won't be available until a couple weeks since i'm really busy, but it will be done.

I won't let this die that easily ^^

 

A few things :

1) Yes, ecchi and hentai are different things.

2) I'll make changes in some définitions which are unnecessarely long, are incorrect, are confusing.

 

I'd like to remind that the "lexicon" is aimed at new people who are unfamiliar with this kind of vocabulary. It is not meant to be a dictionnary, so i'll change things towards the opposite direction, trying to make it short and understandable.

[Zakamutt]

I'm bored. Have a youtube to discuss differences between the typical JRPG and WRPG that are not necessarily about battle systems:

[Darklord Rooke]

I should warn you that trying to define JRPG any other way than by its region will lead to bullshit page long boring arguments concerning whether Dark Souls is a western RPG, and KOTOR is an eastern one. It'll also lead to many people pointing out that the early FF (1-4) games were very western in design, and a 90s western RPG (Planescape Torment) has a stronger story than virtually any VN or JRPG released since. It's not a place you really want to go. 

 

Even the most anally hardcore group of RPG players on the internet, RPGcodex, just define JRPG as RPGs from Japan. 

 

Just a friendly warning.

[Guest]

Yeah I think it's a good idea.

Will see.

 

Oh and Zaka, these "extra credit" guys are freaking amazing ._. ... Gotta go see moar

[krill]

i just wanted to make away for people who never played these games before to have easy access to information that people who have been in the scene for awhile all take for granted and assume everyone else knows. iv already been told my definitions under the types of games were way to long and now apparently inaccurate as well. i guess the research i did wasn't as thorough as i thought it was, the others can chop and rewrite those as they deem fit since i don't want to make a bigger mess by adding even more over bloated and inaccurate definitions. maef if you need anything let me know.

[Darklord Rooke]

With google and wikipedia so easy to use, if you want people to use your lexicon you should make sure it's at a certain standard. Your intentions are fine Krill, but the execution is lacking. It needs more work. I'm sorry if that's something you don't want to hear.

 

And Krill, I got my definition for adventure games in half a minute on google (which I condensed into a short paragraph.) I can come across a better definition of VNs on VNDB (although I don't like it either.) There are many documents on the web that try and define what an RPG is. Take one, then classify JRPG and WRPG as two sub-categories which focus on different aspects (if you're not happy with defining a JRPG by region.) In short, not enough research.

 

For example, Bradford Allen Towle defines an RPG as such: "This genre focuses on an individual or a small party of individuals. In this genre, a party of characters must progress through the story and grow stronger (level up) in order to achieve victory over whatever foes assail them. Character customization, development and advancement are vital." Now place JRPG after this definition saying that this subcategory a)represent RPGs made in Japan OR b ) focuses more on certain aspects. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Want a better definition, there's tons out there.

 

If you're going to do this, then you should at least do it right. Otherwise I can't see a point to this at all.

[Guest]

With google and wikipedia so easy to use, if you want people to use your lexicon you should make sure it's at a certain standard. Your intentions are fine Krill, but the execution is lacking. It needs more work. I'm sorry if that's something you don't want to hear.

 

And Krill, I got my definition for adventure games in half a minute on google (which I condensed into a short paragraph.) I can come across a better definition of VNs on VNDB (although I don't like it either.) There are many documents on the web that try and define what an RPG is. Take one, then classify JRPG and WRPG as two sub-categories which focus on different aspects (if you're not happy with defining a JRPG by region.) In short, not enough research.

 

For example, Bradford Allen Towle defines an RPG as such: "This genre focuses on an individual or a small party of individuals. In this genre, a party of characters must progress through the story and grow stronger (level up) in order to achieve victory over whatever foes assail them. Character customization, development and advancement are vital." Now place JRPG after this definition saying that this subcategory a)represent RPGs made in Japan OR b ) focuses more on certain aspects. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Want a better definition, there's tons out there.

 

If you're going to do this, then you should at least do it right. Otherwise I can't see a point to this at all.

 

Speaking of unnecessary and not helpful, huh ...

 

Yes it needs more work that's why we ask for feedback --"

 

It's really nice to point out the mistakes, and it's even better to help fix them. It helps us a lot.

But putting an emphasis on "you shouldn't have done it" is ... useless, I can't find any other word.

I'm unpleasantly surprised by this post.

[Darklord Rooke]

 

But putting an emphasis on "you shouldn't have done it" is ... useless, I can't find any other word.

I'm unpleasantly surprised by this post.

 

There is no such emphasis. You're not only reading things that aren't there, but you're modifying my words to try and support your imagined position.

 

I said if you do it, then do it right otherwise there's no point. And I'm perfectly willing to argue this fact all day with you. 

[Guest]

Whatever, i'm not going to keep on arguing, it's pointless and is not the topic of the thread.

 

Anyway, i'll make some changes tonight.

 

Feel free to tell what I should have done rather than what I should do.

[Darklord Rooke]

I'll do both. I think you're lashing out because Krill is feeling sorry for himself *rolls eyes*

[Guest]

If you say so

[krill]

ok first off im not feeling sorry for my self at all, i had a blast helping make this, the thing is i know my limitations and at this point i just have nothing of use to add. i suck when it comes to editing, the research you say took seconds i put hours in to cuzz i didn't want a copy and paste job originally my definitions in the first section were larger had more material and even history behind the various types of games like the difference between sound novel and visual novel. this was fun for me i learned a crap load i didn't know. im not feeling sorry for my self over this. you my friend are reading me wrong. they cut my originals down because they needed to be trimmed for space and edited for readability.. im not good at this kinda thing . hell i even used for the adv games section a post between you and aaeru as a starting point to researching it. im not upset at you rook, sure your a bit of a jerk at times but frankly i like that about you it shows you speak your mind and don't pull punches just like im a bit of a pessimistic depressing  ass when the mood strikes, it don't phase you when i feel that way and the remarks you made didn't phase me as to why i waited till now to reply is with the site going in and out for the last few days i didn't want to reply and have to do it again after a roll back deleted the post. im glad you read it and i take your criticisms for what they are, the opinion of some one who has been in this part of the otaku scene much longer then myself. as for if im done with this project of course not if there's anything i can do with out making things back slide i would be happy to do so i have no grammar or spelling skills to speak of so editing is pointless, the formatting does its self practically since its essentially just a detailed list so nose bleed who has knowledge of Google docs is doing that and the added items suggested were in others sections and i don't like stepping on toes.  

[Darklord Rooke]

It seems I owe you an apology. 

 

I'm sorry Krill, I misread you.

 

Also just go ahead and step on toes. Nobody minds. If they do, ignore them and just imagine that they don't mind.

[krill]

see thats the straight forward jerkitude i respect keep up the critique rooke. 

[Guest]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b7clKD8xXyrdGc54zGeO7oGKv9Y-Gwu8ztP98XvHaWY/edit?pli=1

 

First update.

 

Changes in :

Dating sim

Eroge

Fan Disk

Guroge

J-RPG

Kinect Novels

Otome games

Sex-sim

Sound novels

Visual Novel

 

Changes to be discussed

Adv (Proposition)

Moege (Done-ish)

Good/True/bad ending. (Deleted for the time being, Won't be rewritten unless we can define them simply and properly)