Type-Moon Powerlevel thread

[Moekou]

Just kidding!

But how do you think Shiki would fare against notable characters from other Type Moon series?

*runs from incoming powerlevel discussion*

[eclipsezero]

Shiki's brain would melt upon trying to see the lines of death on a Servant >>;

Got any specific characters in mind(who Shiki goes against I mean)?

Type-Moon can be very confusing at times, I am pretty sure my own brain is going melt trying to think through various scenario's, plus I am not the most knowledgeable even being a TM fanboy @@;

[Moekou]

Shiki's brain would melt upon trying to see the lines of death on a Servant >>;

Got any specific characters in mind(who Shiki goes against I mean)?

Type-Moon can be very confusing at times, I am pretty sure my own brain is going melt trying to think through various scenario's, plus I am not the most knowledgeable even being a TM fanboy @@;

"Shiki can kill Servants" is a popular meme resulting from this picture from a doujin:

He also killed Unlimited Blade Works as well!

Sparked endless debates on powerlevels and what would or won't work against what. Can Shiki kill the fate of instant death from Gae Bolg? Can he kill All the Evil in the World?

[Saber]

well, really. Discussing power levels on something as... inconclusive as this is going to be quite difficult. If you guys have visited the beast's lair, you'll find some flame wars about different powerlevels discussion, so I am just going to be civil about this. In my personal opinion (very personal), shiki tohno will be able to stand on equal grounds against servants. This is mainly due to what I see from characters like souichiro (with enhancement from caster) and kotomine fare against servants.

Now, talking about the ability of killing them, as in using MEoDP to cut the lines of death/pierce points of death or whatever, I will say that it depends on whether he can see the lines, and this will again depend on some definitions of servants. if he is able to see, them and obviously traced/stab them, then I would say yes, he can kill them.

[Sekainoowaride]

well, really. Discussing power levels on something as... inconclusive as this is going to be quite difficult. If you guys have visited the beast's lair, you'll find some flame wars about different powerlevels discussion, so I am just going to be civil about this. In my personal opinion (very personal), shiki tohno will be able to stand on equal grounds against servants. This is mainly due to what I see from characters like souichiro (with enhancement from caster) and kotomine fare against servants.

Now, talking about the ability of killing them, as in using MEoDP to cut the lines of death/pierce points of death or whatever, I will say that it depends on whether he can see the lines, and this will again depend on some definitions of servants. if he is able to see, them and obviously traced/stab them, then I would say yes, he can kill them.

Technically Yes, but the point is that Servant's aren't really alive...or dead so Shiki would have to look for an indefinite amount of time to actually see it. And then there's the rule that Servant's aren't affected by conventional weapons, plus Servant's move MUCH faster than normal humans, Shirou can only keep up cuz he reinforces himself, and Kotomine can already dodge bullets so.

Souichiro killed Rider WITH the magic of Caster and Kotomine didn't do much more than stop a servant(The weakest one at that, Assassin) for like 10 seconds. It was just enough time for him. Ryougi Shiki on the other hand...She sees the "origin" of things so she could probably "see" there death sooner. Don't know if they'd die in one stroke though(Like Araya Souren)

[Down]

Shiki can see the lines of death of Arcueid, and Arcueid is a much more powerful being than a servant, so yes, Shiki can see the lines of servants. Now can he actually kill them, well... His Nanaya upbringing gives him fighting ability not on the same level but close enought to those of Ryougi Shiki, he might be able to take on some servants with weak stats. Actually he could probably kill Gilgamesh if he was able to sneak up on him.

Now for him to be able to kill concepts such as the instant death of Gae Bolg... I'm afraid he would fry his brain before he can see such things. Maybe with appropriate training (Ryougi learns quite fast how to kill Fujino's twisting power).

Now against other characters, well technically Shiki can kill any terrestrial being safe for the too overpowered ones... (full-powered Arcueid...) if he can come close enough to cut his lines. That's always the same thing.

[Clephas]

If you mean temporarily (in the sense they 'die' during the Holy Grail Wars), then the answer is a qualified yes. If he was able to outmaneuver them (an unlikely prospect even in Nanaya Shiki mode) it is possible.

Ryougi Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai could do it without a doubt (in the complete sense by killing their true existence and not just their form). Though again, it's a qualified yes in the same manner.

[Kaguya]

This is really old, but whatever.

According to Aoko, Shiki can see the "end" of everything. She compared his ability with seeing the future.

According to Rin in FSN, Heroic Spirits are removed from time- even if they die in the real world, they are not killed.

I believe Shiki would be able to "kill" the connection of a Master and his Servant, or even "kill" the servant. Still, I believe that killing the Heroic Spirit is above his abilities. Ryuogi can proabably do it since she can kill concepts, but whatever.

Shiki definitly can't fight against a servant in equal ground to begin with- see some Nasu commets about Melty Blood:

"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.

Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally".

"....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime."

"Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades."

So, if he can't even fight against MB characters, how would he be able to fight against a servant to begin with?

[Tief Blau]

Can Shiro kill servants?

Shiki (Tsukihime) is suppose to always be even with Shiro, so if Shiro can't then Shiki can't. If Shiro can, then Shiki can

[Down]

Shiki (Tsukihime) is suppose to always be even with Shiro, so if Shiro can't then Shiki can't. If Shiro can, then Shiki can

Why? Why should Shiki always be on par with Shirou?

Also, from Nasu source, Shiki Tohno can't kill servants, but Shiki Ryougi can. Don't ask. It's Nasu.

[Kaguya]

Can Shiro kill servants?

Shiki (Tsukihime) is suppose to always be even with Shiro, so if Shiro can't then Shiki can't. If Shiro can, then Shiki can

Why is Shiki supposed to be even with Shirou?

Shirou by himself probably wouldn't be able to kill any servants(besides Gilgamesh). In Heaven's Feel he can because of Archer's arm, but that's pretty much it.

In UBW he kills Gilgamesh, but its very clear that "Since they are both owners, not users, the only servant he is able to kill is gilgamesh" Something about not having the mastery over any weapon or something like that.

I don't believe he is able to kill a servant by himself (his abilities, no avalon).

[Kaguya]

Why? Why should Shiki always be on par with Shirou?

Also, from Nasu source, Shiki Tohno can't kill servants, but Shiki Ryougi can. Don't ask. It's Nasu.

I believe he can at least kill a command spell or something like that (sine it has a solid form)

[Tief Blau]

Last paragraph

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Shirou_Emiya#Combat

[Kaguya]

Can Ryougi kill logic and mathematical concepts? like 2+2=4?

[Redgrave]

No he can't. Either his brain would overload for analyzing the concept of a servant or get killed by a lancer, saber, archer, rider or berserker. That doujin is good but it's clearly biased on the tsukihime side. Tohno Shiki doesn't have feats that can match up to a servant's feats which are mostly on Hypersonic+ speed and hypersonic+ speed reaction. Shiki is only supersonic with hypersonic attack speed. Rider alone of heaven's feel can speed blitz Shiki.

[Kaguya]

No he can't. Either his brain would overload for analyzing the concept of a servant or get killed by a lancer, saber, archer, rider or berserker. That doujin is good but it's clearly biased on the tsukihime side. Tohno Shiki doesn't have feats that can match up to a servant's feats which are mostly on Hypersonic+ speed and hypersonic+ speed reaction. Shiki is only supersonic with hypersonic attack speed. Rider alone of heaven's feel can speed blitz Shiki.

His brain overloaded while trying to find common poison in Hisui Good End, so he most probably wouldn't be able to see the death of servants. Well, he definitely wouldn't be able to fight against any servant (even assassin or caster), ans his trump card would be useless, so I guess it's pretty much settled.

Aoko and Arcueid can definitely fight (and win) against servants though. Ciel, the 27 apostles and Kouma can probably manage a defensive battle against a servant as well.

[Redgrave]

TYPE-MOON Fes. 10th Anniversary Q & A: Q: It has been said that a certain Aozaki cannot even defeat a serious Caster, is this "certain Aozaki" Aoko Aozaki? Is this an assessment based on Aoko using True Magic?

A: "A certain Aozaki" includes both Aoko and Touko. In a magecraft battle by modern standards, a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist

Source: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Aoko_Aozaki

References section.

I don't know of Aoko's powers or feats but if word of god says she can't even defeat a serious caster, how can she win when it's Lancer, Saber, Archer and Berserker? No argument with Arcueid. Arch-type earth was stated to be the strongest character in Type Moon even surpassing Void Shiki so she can definitely kill any servant. She might have a hard time against Serious Gilgamesh though.

[Kaguya]

TYPE-MOON Fes. 10th Anniversary Q & A: Q: It has been said that a certain Aozaki cannot even defeat a serious Caster, is this "certain Aozaki" Aoko Aozaki? Is this an assessment based on Aoko using True Magic?

A: "A certain Aozaki" includes both Aoko and Touko. In a magecraft battle by modern standards, a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist

Source: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Aoko_Aozaki

References section.

I don't know of Aoko's powers or feats but if word of god says she can't even defeat a serious caster, how can she win when it's Lancer, Saber, Archer and Berserker? No argument with Arcueid. Arch-type earth was stated to be the strongest character in Type Moon even surpassing Void Shiki so she can definitely kill any servant. She might have a hard time against Serious Gilgamesh though.

About her powers and feats, she can use the Fifth Sorcery and she's compared to "A car which can run 1000km on a single liter of gasoline"

You're forgetting that Magecraft and Magic are two completely different things.

Furthermore, God says she can do it:

Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?

A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.

If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel.

Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Servant#cite_note-7

[Redgrave]

I see. But nothing there tells that she can "defeat" servants. It just says that she can fight a "defensive battle." Not take the offensive, not defeat a servant.

[Kaguya]

I see. But nothing there tells that she can "defeat" servants. It just says that she can fight a "defensive battle." Not take the offensive, not defeat a servant.

I think she can if she relies on some tricks.

She can be called a "melee-type" magus that generates Prana from her ribs, and by the time it passes through her limbs, the spell is already in a ritually complete form that is expelled in a way that makes both her arms and legs resemble rocket burners to those on the receiving end of the attack.

"Comparing skills in magecraft, Alice would emerge victorious ten out of ten times, but a fight to the death is something else entirely. Alice is not a magus suited for combat, while Aoko is a destroyer specialized in fighting. Aoko, in terms of pure magic energy, even surpasses Alice. While smaller than those of Alice, her circuits have extraordinary rotational speed, structural durability, quality of output, and fuel efficiency."

Due to this, she is extremely destructive despite her naturally low capabilities, earning her titles such as Magic Gunner and Human Missile Launcher

Aoko's magecraft is something that "can't do anything but destroy", and even Nrvnqsr Chaos believes she is something that destroys order.

She uses a High-Speed Aria to greatly increase the speed of her incantations during battle, and her particular method is referred to as Unlimited Rotation

She is also capable of fighting with Arcueid Brunestud to the extent where Arcueid wishes to avoid her if all possible. There is no mistake that she would have become a genius sharpshooter had she not been born into the Aozaki family.

[Redgrave]

Okay, then i would admit she is a high tier magus and have chances that she can kill servants but i really won't get much into an argument whether she can win because i really don't know anything much about her skills and feats aside from your descriptions. I would leave that when i played MnY(which i am excited to play). So yeah.

[Kaguya]

Okay, then i would admit she is a high tier magus and have chances that she can kill servants but i really won't get much into an argument whether she can win because i really don't know anything much about her skills and feats aside from your descriptions. I would leave that when i played MnY(which i am excited to play). So yeah.

Well, beating a servant (specially Caster from FSN) is not that hard once you can surprise them. Remember how Rin beat the hell out of Caster with chinese martial arts? and how Kuzuki beat Saber when they first fought? Aoko is extremely well-versed in ways to destroy something, so if she could surprise the servant, she'd most probably win. That's why I said she can probably do it.

[Kaguya]

Shiki can see the lines of death of Arcueid, and Arcueid is a much more powerful being than a servant, so yes, Shiki can see the lines of servants. Now can he actually kill them, well... His Nanaya upbringing gives him fighting ability not on the same level but close enought to those of Ryougi Shiki, he might be able to take on some servants with weak stats. Actually he could probably kill Gilgamesh if he was able to sneak up on him.

Now for him to be able to kill concepts such as the instant death of Gae Bolg... I'm afraid he would fry his brain before he can see such things. Maybe with appropriate training (Ryougi learns quite fast how to kill Fujino's twisting power).

Now against other characters, well technically Shiki can kill any terrestrial being safe for the too overpowered ones... (full-powered Arcueid...) if he can come close enough to cut his lines. That's always the same thing.

True, Arcueid is more powerful, but the reason for him being unable to kill servants is another.

Arcueid exists in the real world. Heroic Spirits are said to be removed from time-space. They are "nothing" to begin with. Since Arcueid is in this world she has an end. A Heroic Spirit doesn't- It's not that they are unable to die, but since they are free from the flow of time they just don't have a predetermined death. Shiki ability is all about seeing the end of things, and since they don't have a predetermined end he probably wouldn't be able to see the lines.

[Kaguya]

Last paragraph

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Shirou_Emiya#Combat

PS: sorry for triple posting, just noticed this now

It says they would be equals on a fight indeed, but that doesn't mean they could kill the same people.

it's a question of compatibility: Shiki trumph card is useless against servants and he fights using his trumph card only

that's why he can't even if Shirou somehow managed to do it.

[farispie]

I found this link that's pretty interesting :

http://www.screwattack.com/news/can-shiki-kill-servants-factual-review-type-moon-characters-and-assets

It's pretty logical, although I am a bit iffy if Shiki can even see the "death" of servants.