Tay Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 This forum is the place to discuss games not hosted by Fuwanovel. If you believe a game is getting enough chatter to deserve its own forum (like the Fuwa-hosted games), please PM an admin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Stuff like Saya no Uta, D.C.II, Shuffle, Hakuoki, Corpse Party, Anything that is western licensed I don't upload. It's not principled. It's out of respect for the Overton Window Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Stuff like Saya no Uta, D.C.II, Shuffle, Hakuoki, Corpse Party, Anything that is western licensed I don't upload. It's not principled. It's out of respect for the Overton Window I don't understand the logic of this window at all . This diagram misses explanations about this arrow, the process, that shifts the new idea to the desired one. On the heart of the subject though, I don't see a difference between pirating a western licensed vn or not, in both cases you are preventing people of getting their share. I don't want to debate on piracy because nobody is going to change their views overnight. To morally defend it in one case and not in the other is being dishonest to me though. Why would the western companies have more right to have their products bought legally than their japanese counter parts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Out of curiosity, I looked Overton window over wikipedia. It is defined as the range of policies considered politically acceptable in the current climate of public opinion. In other words, you won't diffuse this game because the opinions of the readers of vns is against it. I understand it as "This is not a principle, but a personal policy" which is exactly the same. I'm getting upset here because I expect people being vocal about their opinions to stay true to them or at least being honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Joachim - could you clarify the points you just made? Here's what I'm getting so far: 1) Pirating Japanese games but not the English-Licensed versions is hypocrisy 2) Something about Aaeru's figure on the ideological shift where radical policies become the norm with time and societal change Clarification will help everybody understand where you're coming from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Joachim - could you clarify the points you just made? Here's what I'm getting so far: 1) Pirating Japanese games but not the English-Licensed versions is hypocrisy 2) Something about Aaeru's figure on the ideological shift where radical policies become the norm with time and societal change Clarification will help everybody understand where you're coming from 1) I understand pirating japanese games and english licensed games have different consequences. For example, the western based companies have to pay licensing fees. If they don't sell enough they can't keep paying these fees meaning no more official english versions. If you pirate japanese games it means less sales for them, which they surely don't consider important enough or they would make more efforts to license them in the west. Despite this differences, many results are the same: it leads to a tighter budget, which means harder working conditions for the employees, less risk taking and less ambition. In the case of big companies like Key it is hard to sympathize, but with small studios the money they would earn would make a big difference. 2) She says pirating licensed stuff is a radical policy for the opinion.But pirating japanese games are accepted. And you still are defending honesty ? And why the hell would other download site with licensed stuff being as popular as they are if not accepted ? I am not attacking opinions here, I am attacking a serious lack of communication. Why not telling people that you just don't want it because you want to support translation, english license, and so on? Using this silly Overton Window made upset, because it is being obtuse for the sake of it. In my opinion people should explain their decisions with their own words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 I didn't see the graphic that way at all. I think it's pretty useful as a context. That said, I'd recommend Aaeru's FAQ (this and the other pages) until she has time to reply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I didn't see the graphic that way at all. I think it's pretty useful as a context. That said, I'd recommend Aaeru's FAQ (this and the other pages) until she has time to reply here. I read it, and as I said, I am not upset about her opinions, but about how she communicate things. I am very susceptible on certain topics, intellectual honesty being one of it. People certainly don't understand why I am getting overboard for such trivial matters. But to me it is a matter of faith in the motivation behind her engagement, about what she wrote in that FAQ. There are people that are inspired by ideas, and there are people that use ideas of others to find an identity. At the same time, you are responsible for the ideas you are spreading, so I easily attack people that are vocal, but don't seem to care about how coherent their ideas might be. Most people are trustful and easily believe what they are told if the people telling them put a significant amount of power behind these ideas. And Aaeru seem to have power in spades. I am attracted to these people and their strong will, and I have to challenge them because I don't want to be disappointed in them and the ideas they believe in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Okay. I'm going to move this thread to the "Fuwanovel Feedback" forum, repost (and lock) the original post, and PM you the new location. I think this is a great conversation to have, but it doesn't need to happen here : ) Cheers! Edit: Moved, PM sent. Hope you understand the reasoning behind the move (wasn't game discussion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Okay. I'm going to move this thread to the "Fuwanovel Feedback" forum, repost (and lock) the original post, and PM you the new location. I think this is a great conversation to have, but it doesn't need to happen here : ) Cheers! Edit: Moved, PM sent. Hope you understand the reasoning behind the move (wasn't game discussion) Yes, thank you. I kind of hijacked the thread I guess . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 2) She says pirating licensed stuff is a radical policy for the opinion.But pirating japanese games are accepted. And you still are defending honesty ? And why the hell would other download site with licensed stuff being as popular as they are if not accepted ? I am not attacking opinions here, I am attacking a serious lack of communication. Why not telling people that you just don't want it because you want to support translation, english license, and so on? Using this silly Overton Window made upset, because it is being obtuse for the sake of it. In my opinion people should explain their decisions with their own words. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly..... sorry it's my fault for being so brief, ive never explained this to any1. The culture of a small community of VN fans where I originated from, (which includes a number of fan translators --not all), do not accept the sharing of western-licensed titles. Actually they do not even accept the sharing of non-licensed titles. The reason why I don't upload JAST or Mangagamer titles onto fuwan, is because it is unthinkable for these people. So when I mentioned the overton window, I mean that my ideas are not accepted by the more self-righteous portions of my community, and so I don't upload JAST in hope of easing people into these ideas. Also, the sharing of property does not lead to decrease in sales. (scroll to bottom) https://fuwanovel.net/faq/2 it actually shifts the business model. The money is still there, but the monetization method is different. And it is the job of the entrepreneur (i.e. the artist) to respond to a perpetually-shifting market through innovative business models. Their job is to provide to you valuable services in exchange for your money. And that may or may not necessarily be the service of printing people copies (not to be confused with the service of creating new arts). The idea that society has to collectively arrange itself to help Artists profit using an obsolete business model, is getting economics backwards. I think it is just a matter of time (1 year) before mangagamer or JAST titles gets uploaded to this site. (DMCA here please: [email protected]) So when you said my supporting of commercial licenses. Why not? The more translations the better. But ultimately I want to see free sharing + direct crowd funded VN development replace the royalty system (because it is inefficient). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly..... sorry it's my fault for being so brief, ive never explained this to any1. The culture of a small community of VN fans where I originated from, (which includes a number of fan translators --not all), do not accept the sharing of western-licensed titles. Actually they do not even accept the sharing of non-licensed titles. The reason why I don't upload JAST or Mangagamer titles onto fuwan, is because it is unthinkable for these people. So when I mentioned the overton window, I mean that my ideas are not accepted by the more self-righteous portions of my community, and so I don't upload JAST in hope of easing people into these ideas. Also, the sharing of property does not lead to decrease in sales. (scroll to bottom) https://fuwanovel.net/faq/2 it actually shifts the business model. The money is still there, but the monetization method is different. And it is the job of the entrepreneur (i.e. the artist) to respond to a perpetually-shifting market through innovative business models. Their job is to provide to you valuable services in exchange for your money. And that may or may not necessarily be the service of printing people copies (not to be confused with the service of creating new arts). The idea that society has to collectively arrange itself to help Artists profit using an obsolete business model, is getting economics backwards. I think it is just a matter of time (1 year) before mangagamer or JAST titles gets uploaded to this site. (DMCA here please: [email protected]) So when you said my supporting of commercial licenses. Why not? The more translations the better. But ultimately I want to see free sharing + direct crowd funded VN development replace the royalty system (because it is inefficient). It is my fault for not being clear enough . You should try to explain things more, I am interested in your thoughts and what motivates you decisions. I understand better now what you meant, but I'm still confused about your decision to satisfy the core community, the people that are the most involved for the longest time. As I understand it a part of it hates you for distributing translation patches and the games wrapped together. People despise you as well for degrading the translation quality. I understand you want to shift mindsets gradually so that your principles become accepted. But the people you are influencing aren't the hard core fans you are talking about, but people like me, casuals or new to the genre. Said otherwise, you want to spread visual novels to the masses, but you are worried about the opinions of the self righteous portions of the community that despise you anyway. You have to take a stand and displease some to be able to please others ! You look at these economical problem only from your point of view. These entrepreneur are taking huge risk, they have responsibilities like paying their employes and office, and need enough ressources to finance future projects to stay afloat. If they are staying in this obsolete system it is because the years have proven them to be trustful. They might not have the time and resources to ponder other solutions as well. They need to secure a minimum amount of profit to be able to sleep at night ! I believe the same as you, things need to change, but it is a social and political change as well. If you ever have looked about the history of constitutions and Civil Code, you would be frightened to know how long it takes to change. France's Civil Code and organization of the state dates back to 1804 . I believe in people not in ideas ! Nothing feels as inspiring as people being enthusiastic about things. What I feel though is vindication in your thoughts, and self righteousness. It is sad because you seem to genuinely believe in improving things around you. You should embrace this feeling and let go of frustration ! The world is filled with harmful things and people, don't try to fight back. I know I might be annoying talking like that . But I can't shake the feeling that you don't seem to believe as much in you than other people do. That's why you seem to screen you thoughts behind diagrams and theories, at least to me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 thanks for the response Joachim~ that's what i think too. you can't please everyone! you cannot even get everyone. people in the old community believe they have a monopoly on truth, they know everything already. by their arrogance, they ended their learning. people like that, you can't have them. And I don't bother with them either. the only thing you can do is move on from such people, and get the ones that you can get. It's this idea Learning is the constant revising of what we knows. Arrogance. Pride. In what one knows, is the end of revisionism, the END of learning.— Aaeru (@Aaeru_) November 12, 2012 I have to be careful myself to not be prideful of what i already know, and continue revising what I know, because it is almost definitely wrong. I want to know the truth. and I want people to teach me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 thanks for the response Joachim~ that's what i think too. you can't please everyone! you cannot even get everyone. people in the old community believe they have a monopoly on truth, they know everything already. by their arrogance, they ended their learning. people like that, you can't have them. And I don't bother with them either. the only thing you can do is move on from such people, and get the ones that you can get. It's this idea I have to be careful myself to not be prideful of what i already know, and continue revising what I know, because it is almost definitely wrong. I want to know the truth. and I want people to teach me. This people might have discovered and spread first this medium, but they don't do it anymore for others, but to satisfy their ego, and foremost have power over others. I think they fear the day visual novels become mainstream because then, nobody will pay attention to them again. This niche place they found gave them their identity. And if everything is translated and easy to find, nobody will need their service and give them whatever attention and affection they don't get otherwise in their real life. They despise the casual players that want accessibility to this media, because they want their efforts acknowledged first and foremost. I am part of this community not as much to make visual novels popular in the west, but to give voice to people, to show them a place where they can share their thoughts and emotion, and be respected for that. Because visual novel isn't just entertainment, it conveys deep emotions and reflexions that you don't get easily otherwise. You don't need any knowledge or aptitudes to get into them, and get the most out of it, making possible for young or old, scholar or not, to be able to enjoy them without distinction. We humans are social beings, and living without sharing is living a life of frustrations. It is the exact same feeling for someone being deeply touched by a story, and having no one to talk about it. Seeing how people across the world, coming from any possible path of life, sharing their common experience is wonderful. I love it when people feel confident in themselves and in their community. I don't know how it will evolve, but I won't shift from this goal, until the day people chase me out with forks . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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