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2D vs 3D


Tom

2D or 3D  

54 members have voted

  1. 1. what do you prefer?

    • 2D
      19
    • 3D
      3
    • I like both
      27
    • LOLIS!
      19

This poll is closed to new votes


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Pretty much what he is saying Okami. I'm sorry, I don't care if people, or anyone in the world, tells me in their mind or whatever else that the 2d world is a real thing that we can grasp and that it truly exists. It just doesn't. I don't care if I can't prove it, I don't care if you think it really does exist, it just doesn't. In fact, any Japanese company or artist or writer who made the 2d world you are so well in love with will tell you the same thing: guess what, it isn't real, and therefore you are delusional.

 

As Steve himself has said when I've talked to him about this stuff: "If at least 90% of people think something is wrong, guess what, it's wrong." The same is true here: if at least 90% of people don't think the 2d world exists even if you are bending your own mind to believe it and that there are indeed 2d characters standing in front of you that you can physically interact with, you are still considered delusional or what we would say as being messed up in the head.

 

In closing, I always find it's funny that everyone's 2d world is anime. I know for a fact that if anime never existed, you would not think a 2d world exists nor give a flying fuck about it. Just saying.

 

I <3 you Flutterz!

Just using this quote because it is relevant in some way. 

 

Actually, If you do work on the assumption that "the universe is endless" (which gives you a lot to think about, if you twist and turn it around in your head), everything that would not break the laws of physics would have the potential to exist. Although that is, in my opinion, highly unlikely. 

 

Also, a 2D universe would be very strange, at least in scientiffic terms. I think that there was a Novel about a 2D world written some time ago. 

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the world out there is so vast and beyond our grasp, that is almost logical to think that everything our mind can conceive, already exist somewhere, if not in this universe, in another one with different laws etc

its the same as saying that the planet earth has so many people, that someone else in this very moment is thinking the same thing you are.

regarding the fact that 3d is disgusting, i kind of agree

0015.jpg

That Picture <3 Hahha

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Just using this quote because it is relevant in some way. 

 

Actually, If you do work on the assumption that "the universe is endless" (which gives you a lot to think about, if you twist and turn it around in your head), everything that would not break the laws of physics would have the potential to exist. Although that is, in my opinion, highly unlikely. 

 

Also, a 2D universe would be very strange, at least in scientiffic terms. I think that there was a Novel about a 2D world written some time ago. 

the novel you're talking about its flatland if i'm not mistaken, anyway, even without thinking about places with different laws, in our own universe the matter/energy is estimated to be around 95.1% of the universe...and its called dark matter/energy because we have no idea what it is since we can't even perceive it with our 5 senses and all the technology we developed...so given this fact, anything is possible.

what if conscious minds are able to create stuff? what if the simple act of creating a fantasy world would create that world itself somewhere? its entirely possible, you can't even say its unlikely 

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And you can't prove that I am wrong, therefore the possibility of you being delusional are the same as me being delusional.

 I have a theory that I believe in and you don't and neither you nor I can prove that we are right therefore we can only discuss our beliefs.

 

PS: And actually I do believe that you are a god, I believe that all intelligent and self-conscious beings are gods.

 

Yes, I do find my current body disgusting. I will comment more on personality and other things tomorrow, now I need to go to sleep.

It's true that neither of us can provide concrete proof for our positions, but there are other ways to argue a point,

Let's say I told you that the next time you wake up, you'll wake up with one arm cut off. I can't prove it to you, but you can't prove me wrong either. So would you live your life based on the fact that the next time you wake up you won't have an arm (buying painkillers, making sure that there are first aid supplies nearby, etc.)? I'm guessing not, that would be silly, just because you can't disprove something someone on the internet says, doesn't mean it's the right time to start believing it.

Same with your idea that the 3D world is somehow being purposely made to be similar to a 2D world (I'm assuming that's your position, since I said it was a delusional one and you countered with Galileo being called delusional too, but this applies to anything else you believe despite not having proof), it's silly to live your life based on thinking it's correct, for the exact same reason - the time to believe something is true is when it has been proven to be true. If something can't be proven to be true or false, the only reasonable thing is to not believe it.

I don't have anything against you quietly believing it yourself, people are free to believe whatever they want to, but since you vocalized them that gives everyone who reads them free rein to challenge them.

 

Pretty much what he is saying Okami. I'm sorry, I don't care if people, or anyone in the world, tells me in their mind or whatever else that the 2d world is a real thing that we can grasp and that it truly exists. It just doesn't. I don't care if I can't prove it, I don't care if you think it really does exist, it just doesn't. In fact, any Japanese company or artist or writer who made the 2d world you are so well in love with will tell you the same thing: guess what, it isn't real, and therefore you are delusional.

 

As Steve himself has said when I've talked to him about this stuff: "If at least 90% of people think something is wrong, guess what, it's wrong." The same is true here: if at least 90% of people don't think the 2d world exists even if you are bending your own mind to believe it and that there are indeed 2d characters standing in front of you that you can physically interact with, you are still considered delusional or what we would say as being messed up in the head.

 

In closing, I always find it's funny that everyone's 2d world is anime. I know for a fact that if anime never existed, you would not think a 2d world exists nor give a flying fuck about it. Just saying.

 

I <3 you Flutterz!

I'm being far too serious at 7 am, I need some Ren <3 to chill out.  :wub:

 

the novel you're talking about its flatland if i'm not mistaken, anyway, even without thinking about places with different laws, in our own universe the matter/energy is estimated to be around 95.1% of the universe...and its called dark matter/energy because we have no idea what it is since we can't even perceive it with our 5 senses and all the technology we developed...so given this fact, anything is possible.

what if conscious minds are able to create stuff? what if the simple act of creating a fantasy world would create that world itself somewhere? its entirely possible, you can't even say its unlikely 

I kind of can. You're saying that even if we put a human in a perfectly sealed container through which no waves or particles can escape, his thoughts will still create that world somewhere? If so, that goes against everything science says, and as I stated earlier, even if something is actually true, you're wrong to believe it is true until you can prove it.

 

Need more Ren-senpai~

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It's true that neither of us can provide concrete proof for our positions, but there are other ways to argue a point,

Let's say I told you that the next time you wake up, you'll wake up with one arm cut off. I can't prove it to you, but you can't prove me wrong either. So would you live your life based on the fact that the next time you wake up you won't have an arm (buying painkillers, making sure that there are first aid supplies nearby, etc.)? I'm guessing not, that would be silly, just because you can't disprove something someone on the internet says, doesn't mean it's the right time to start believing it.

Same with your idea that the 3D world is somehow being purposely made to be similar to a 2D world (I'm assuming that's your position, since I said it was a delusional one and you countered with Galileo being called delusional too, but this applies to anything else you believe despite not having proof), it's silly to live your life based on thinking it's correct, for the exact same reason - the time to believe something is true is when it has been proven to be true. If something can't be proven to be true or false, the only reasonable thing is to not believe it.

I don't have anything against you quietly believing it yourself, people are free to believe whatever they want to, but since you vocalized them that gives everyone who reads them free rein to challenge them.

 

I'm being far too serious at 7 am, I need some Ren <3 to chill out.  :wub:

 
 

I kind of can. You're saying that even if we put a human in a perfectly sealed container through which no waves or particles can escape, his thoughts will still create that world somewhere? If so, that goes against everything science says, and as I stated earlier, even if something is actually true, you're wrong to believe it is true until you can prove it.

 

Need more Ren-senpai~

even if no particles can escape, long distance information teleportation between two isolated systems its already proven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation

but even if it wasn't, what's wrong about going against science? how do you think science evolve in the first place? quantum teleportation was against science before it was proven, so?

science can explain some stuff, but we have yet to discover most of it...and everything we know can be proven wrong at any time by a better theory.

Go take a look at the string theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory , if i posted this stuff under my name you would have said that its highly illogical and it goes against science...this is how fucked up it is, but yet this is our best theory today.

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even if no particles can escape, long distance information teleportation between two isolated systems its already proven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation

but even if it wasn't, what's wrong about going against science? how do you think science evolve in the first place? quantum teleportation was against science before it was proven, so?

science can explain some stuff, but we have yet to discover most of it...and everything we know can be proven wrong at any time by a better theory.

Go take a look at the string theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory , if i posted this stuff under my name you would have said that its highly illogical and it goes against science...this is how fucked up it is, but yet this is our best theory today.

There's nothing wrong with going against science... if you can back your ideas up. I can claim that FTL travel is possible all I want, but all of science so far says it isn't, and unless I can prove it, my saying that FTL travel is possible is pointless, and wrong, according to our current understanding of science. Sure, with more advanced science we might be able to prove FTL travel or the idea that thoughts create worlds, but we don't have access to more advanced science, so it a meaningless argument.

 

Oh, and as for the quantum teleportation thing, you can't transfer more information than you have atoms in your body, so any world that you create with it would be limited in size to roughly yours. Once again, of course there might be something in the future that tells us "Yes, every single though is materialized somewhere", but there might also never be something that tells us that, and speculating about it will get us nowhere.

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@Xypers

Let's forget that your last argument is a complete Non Sequitur.

Let's also admit, for the sake of the argument, that i.t exists a 2D world full of lolis and animu waifus.

Are you actively doing something to reach it? And by "doing something" I mean developing an structured plan to achieve a goal, like becoming a scientist, not engaging on hollow debates based on metafisical falacies.

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There's nothing wrong with going against science... if you can back your ideas up. I can claim that FTL travel is possible all I want, but all of science so far says it isn't, and unless I can prove it, my saying that FTL travel is possible is pointless, and wrong, according to our current understanding of science. Sure, with more advanced science we might be able to prove FTL travel or the idea that thoughts create worlds, but we don't have access to more advanced science, so it a meaningless argument.

 

Oh, and as for the quantum teleportation thing, you can't transfer more information than you have atoms in your body, so any world that you create with it would be limited in size to roughly yours. Once again, of course there might be something in the future that tells us "Yes, every single though is materialized somewhere", but there might also never be something that tells us that, and speculating about it will get us nowhere.

except that i never made any claim, i just said that everything is possible, and sometimes from a statistic point of view , its almost logical to thing that something MIGHT be true instead of the opposite

regarding the quantum teleportation, as i said before we know the composition of 4.9% of the universe and we ignore what the remaining 95.1% is, do i have to explain more or do you get the point i'm trying to make?

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except that i never made any claim, i just said that everything is possible, and sometimes from a statistic point of view , its almost logical to thing that something MIGHT be true instead of the opposite

regarding the quantum teleportation, as i said before we know the composition of 4.9% of the universe and we ignore what the remaining 95.1% is, do i have to explain more or do you get the point i'm trying to make?

I can see your point - I'm trying to demonstrate why it's wrong. The only time when it's logical to think something is true rather than false is when you've proven it. Thinking that something might be true is pointless - as you said, anything might be true, but are we really going to sit around talking about how if a unicorn eats a bathtub on the 3rd full moon of the year the sky might turn rainbow-coloured?

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Actually, you CAN believe in something without having any proof. That is what theories and hypothesis' are all about. You can believe that something is right until it is either proven or disproved, as some of these people found out

 

However, if something is disproved by well-established, tested science, or actual evidence, persisting with believing in it is either pride, ignorance, or a legitimate reason to keep believing. If something you believe in is disproved, then you can always check up the science, and/or finding evidence yourself that supports your beliefs while still working together with, or disproving the science that disproved you. If those are proven wrong, then try again. But if science disproves your theory and your evidence again, and again, and again, maybe your beliefs actually are wrong on some level, and maybe you're just refusing to see it.

 

And now, for MY opinion on the whole "2D vs 3D" thing.

Also, I have a feeling that Tom is monitoring this thread and the arguments within with much amusement...

 

2D has the potential to evoke almost any kind of emotion (ANY kind of media, actually) and therefore, it has an almost limitless potential. If you think that 3D is bad/(a synonym), and would rather prefer 2D, then remember that it all originated in a human mind. The 3D world is quite frankly, a beautiful place, and we should treasure it. If you think that 2D is a good/(a synonym) world, then enjoy it. 

 

Well this was not very coherent... And in the time it took for me to type this post, 4 new replies have been added... 

But let's not forget to keep it civil... please?

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even if we both can't, its the same with aliens, do you think they exist?

if you analyze the problem from a statistic point of view, its 99.9999etc% possible that they exist, so i say that it is logical to think they exist.

i personally think that given the progress made in the last 20-30 years, in another 20 years we will be able to reach the 2d world, of course it will still be man-made, but the technology will be so advanced that "living entirely in the 2d world" will be possible. 

we will eventually reach that stage, if not in 20 years, then 30-40...if a war happens and everything is destroyed then maybe 200-300 years, but we WILL because on theory it is nothing impossible, we just lack the power...its the same as how they invented virtual reality decades ago but they couldn't use it because computers were not powerful. Give it enough time and we will create reality itself, a different one from the crappy 3d

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I wouldn't mind all this stuff if he were seriously trying to search for the truth. But what he's doing is merely an excersise of self assertment. He's just telling himself "since there is ONLY THE POSSIBILITY that a 2D world exist, I'm gonna live believing it's true".

All in all, he's just trying to justify an inmobilism that later on he can (not to mention probably) regret.

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Actually, you CAN believe in something without having any proof. That is what theories and hypothesis' are all about. You can believe that something is right until it is either proven or disproved, as some of these people found out

 

However, if something is disproved by well-established, tested science, or actual evidence, persisting with believing in it is either pride, ignorance, or a legitimate reason to keep believing. If something you believe in is disproved, then you can always check up the science, and/or finding evidence yourself that supports your beliefs while still working together with, or disproving the science that disproved you. If those are proven wrong, then try again. But if science disproves your theory and your evidence again, and again, and again, maybe your beliefs actually are wrong on some level, and maybe you're just refusing to see it.

 

And now, for MY opinion on the whole "2D vs 3D" thing.

Also, I have a feeling that Tom is monitoring this thread and the arguments within with much amusement...

 

2D has the potential to evoke almost any kind of emotion (ANY kind of media, actually) and therefore, it has an almost limitless potential. If you think that 3D is bad/(a synonym), and would rather prefer 2D, then remember that it all originated in a human mind. The 3D world is quite frankly, a beautiful place, and we should treasure it. If you think that 2D is a good/(a synonym) world, then enjoy it. 

 

Well this was not very coherent... And in the time it took for me to type this post, 4 new replies have been added... 

But let's not forget to keep it civil... please?

Of course, you're free to believe anything for any reason, I'm just saying that if there isn't any proof for it then you're believing something without evidence. And if you're willing to believe something without evidence, why not believe the sky will turn rainbow-coloured in the aforementioned conditions?

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Actually, you CAN believe in something without having any proof. That is what theories and hypothesis' are all about. You can believe that something is right until it is either proven or disproved, as some of these people found out

 

However, if something is disproved by well-established, tested science, or actual evidence, persisting with believing in it is either pride, ignorance, or a legitimate reason to keep believing. If something you believe in is disproved, then you can always check up the science, and/or finding evidence yourself that supports your beliefs while still working together with, or disproving the science that disproved you. If those are proven wrong, then try again. But if science disproves your theory and your evidence again, and again, and again, maybe your beliefs actually are wrong on some level, and maybe you're just refusing to see it.

*Looks at the church near his house*

 

For anything else, if you start from the fact that Human nature is evil, the 2D world is just the perfect utopia where people can coexist without killing each other for any stupid reason, or where miracles can actually happen.

That's why i like it, of course actually the best 2D part is all about "free love" and that sort of things.

Also something fascinating about the 2D world is the chance to discover also things related with the 3D world without having to move and without much effort.

 

Of course they are strictly and forcibly related but, seen the last trends in the 3D i'm actually starting to prefer the 2D even more.. 

 

Lolis. No other option is acceptable. 2D ones of course.

 

You are the other acceptable option, darling <3

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I wouldn't mind all this stuff if he were seriously trying to search for the truth. But what he's doing is merely an excersise of self assertment. He's just telling himself "since there is ONLY THE POSSIBILITY that a 2D world exist, I'm gonna live believing it's true".

All in all, he's just trying to justify an inmobilism that later on he can (not to mention probably) regret.

i'm not gonna live my lfe based on some believes 

i'm just saying for the sake of it that you can't talk with any kind of certainty about anything , i'm not saying i believe that we create worlds someplace physical with just our minds, i'm saying that it is entirely POSSIBLE and so you shouldn't call delusional someone like okami who believes that 2d exist independent from us. Even if he is the only one believing that, what's wrong? 

90% of the population believes in some form of religion, so if 90% think its true that god exist, am i the one being delusional since i don't? or the 90% is?

just saying what's possible means that i will spend my life in a way that i will regret?

in my opinion is the questioning and the thinking that cause the world and science to keep on moving...if there weren't people thinking crazy stuff and other people trying to prove them wrong , we would find it natural to believe that earth is flat and everything revolve around us

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For anything else, if you start from the fact that Human nature is evil, the 2D world is just the perfect utopia where people can coexist without killing each other for any stupid reason, or where miracles can actually happen.

 

"Evil" is a bit harsh, don't you think? In fact, human nature is governed by a complex set of motivations. Just calling it evil might just be generalizing it a bit. And people in the 2D world DO actually kill each other for stupid reasons. If, for example, I were to make a VN where people kill each other for stupid reasons, would that still be part of the 2D world? The miracle part is nice though...

 

Sorry if I interpreted what you wrote wrongly...

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i'm not gonna live my lfe based on some believes 

i'm just saying for the sake of it that you can't talk with any kind of certainty about anything , i'm not saying i believe that we create worlds someplace physical with just our minds, i'm saying that it is entirely POSSIBLE and so you shouldn't call delusional someone like okami who believes that 2d exist independent from us. Even if he is the only one believing that, what's wrong? 

90% of the population believes in some form of religion, so if 90% think its true that god exist, am i the one being delusional since i don't? or the 90% is?

just saying what's possible means that i will spend my life in a way that i will regret?

in my opinion is the questioning and the thinking that cause the world and science to keep on moving...if there weren't people thinking crazy stuff and other people trying to prove them wrong , we would find it natural to believe that earth is flat and everything revolve around us

 

Please, for goodness sake. If you were actually trying to advance science you would be studying and preparing yourself to prove your point with actual evidence and not falacies. Even I could undeniably prove God's existence the way you are argumenting things. And in 3, no 4 different ways, to boot!

 

Yeah, the possibility exist, I'm not even bothered by the existance of that possiblity. What bothers me is that you base your neglect of the 3D world on logical games. Until you can empirically prove the existance of God, 2D, unicorns, etc. it's better to live your live based on what can be proven.

 

You can continue your metaphisical games if you want.

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Please, for goodness sake. If you were actually trying to advance science you would be studying and preparing yourself to prove your point with actual evidence and not falacies. Even I could undeniably prove God's existence the way you are argumenting things. And in 3, no 4 different ways, to boot!

 

Yeah, the possibility exist, I'm not even bothered by the existance of that possiblity. What bothers me is that you base your neglect of the 3D world on logical games. Until you can empirically prove the existance of God, 2D, unicorns, etc. it's better to live your live based on what can be proven.

 

You can continue your metaphisical games if you want.

am i neglecting the 3d world? wow i didn't know that

i don't like it so i don't even try to enjoy it,  that's it, i still live in it because i'm forced to but this doesn't mean i'm slowly letting me die because i don't want to live in it.

to enjoy the 3d world you need lots of time, patience, fatigue and you are rewarded with a punch in your face, while you can enjoy 2d all you want without much effort.

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9p0cQEj.jpg

what? i'm not contradicting myself, i do what i have to do to keep on living in the 3D world, but i don't go around town with friends trying to hook up some girls, i don't enjoy doing that and i prefer 2d stuff over whatever "fun" activity the 3d world has to offer.

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Sigh... you are so painfully similar to me 10 years ago that it's truly amusing.

For example: this weekend me and 2 friends are going to spend the whole saturday on a manga convention. We are going to showcase RPG gameplay, make a card tournament, go to a ramen restaurant in the city and later I'll stay at a friend's house the night watching movies, anime and playing DOTA 2.

Another example: Did you see Ren's VN collection? That didn't came from the air, he had to save money, probably from work, to buy those and actually support the creators of that 2D world you love so much.

But, since both things demand you interact with the 3D world, they are stuff you are missing just because you don't want to put a bit of effort.

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But, since both things demand you interact with the 3D world, they are stuff you are missing just because you don't want to put a bit of effort.

 

 

Naah, I used to go to lanparties but its too much effort carrying your PC and all, its better to be stuck in 2d :)

 

example:

In 3d if I wanted to meet meru, she is on the other side of the planet, but in the 2d fuwa fuwa world, we are the best couple :P - 2d wins again

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Sigh... you are so painfully similar to me 10 years ago that it's truly amusing.

For example: this weekend me and 2 friends are going to spend the whole saturday on a manga convention. We are going to showcase RPG gameplay, make a card tournament, go to a ramen restaurant in the city and later I'll stay at a friend's house the night watching movies, anime and playing DOTA 2.

Another example: Did you see Ren's VN collection? That didn't came from the air, he had to save money, probably from work, to buy those and actually support the creators of that 2D world you love so much.

But, since both things demand you interact with the 3D world, they are stuff you are missing just because you don't want to put a bit of effort.

how many times do i have to say it? i'm not neglecting 3D world, but if i have to choose what to do, i'd choose 2d over 3d, that's it.

I never said i don't interact with the 3d world, i live here, its just a matter of preference...

for example this year i will have the occasion to go on a trip to japan, even if its 3d its only for a little while so i can put it above 2D...its like saying that i like games with a certain graphic, but sometimes a good indie with crappy graphic comes along, and i can play it too if i like it.

but even after saying this, if tomorrow someone invented a way to transfer the mind over the internet making you able to live there indefinitely in virtual realities etc, i would do it any day, no exceptions.

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