Weapons and heroines

[krill]

im with bruce on this while the katana is a beautiful and well crafted weapon. it is not as amazing as people make it out to be. its not some magic item that makes the user invincible. there is no perfect weapon. the better your skill with a weapon the better the outcome .

[Kaguya]

Fighting is just silly. It's all about assasination. You only need to be good with your hands to slip poison into someone's drink without them noticing- just hire a good magician (or should I say illusionist? doesn't really matter, you get it) and he'll teach you how to do that just fine. There are also better ways of using poison, but anyway, you don't want to risk losing your life in a fight. 

[O. Van Bruce]

Fighting is just silly. It's all about assasination. You only need to be good with your hands to slip poison into someone's drink without them noticing- just hire a good magician (or should I say illusionist? doesn't really matter, you get it) and he'll teach you how to do that just fine. There are also better ways of using poison, but anyway, you don't want to risk losing your life in a fight.

Filthy backstabbing scum, I hope your waifu dies in a horrible way.

[Kynbound]

Spear wielding heroines are nice

 

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

I think assassins who use sniper rifles to kill are a lot more awesome than poison really.

[Clephas]

lol... the katana is a technological wonder, from a pre-industrial standard. The idea of wrapping a hard edge around a softer core to create a weapon that both has a sharp edge and won't break the first time it hits something hard was revolutionary, and it also happens to be a idea that no other culture figured out.  Part of this is because iron was so rare in Japan in the first place, leading to innovations in how to best use what was there, and another part of this was that the 'armor races' we saw in the West never occurred in Japan.  Katanas are made for cutting through exposed flesh and the curve in their edges makes them ideal for slashing.

 

Most 'kazu-uchi' (mass-produced, usually in a hurry) katanas were basically an iron edge wrapped around a bronze core.  Very simple, but the edges nicked easily when they hit bone.  Masterwork katanas usually utilize alloys and techniques thought up by master-smiths that let the edge hold even when it contacts bone or armor during a slash.  However, the basic idea of wrapping a harder metal around a softer one to form an edge is still the basic methodology. 

 

Edit:  Incidentally, another huge advantage to using a softer core in a katana is that katanas are lighter than weapons of a similar size in the west.  This allows them to be used longer, for quicker strikes, and more control.

[O. Van Bruce]

lol... the katana is a technological wonder, from a pre-industrial standard. The idea of wrapping a hard edge around a softer core to create a weapon that both has a sharp edge and won't break the first time it hits something hard was revolutionary, and it also happens to be a idea that no other culture figured out.  Part of this is because iron was so rare in Japan in the first place, leading to innovations in how to best use what was there, and another part of this was that the 'armor races' we saw in the West never occurred in Japan.  Katanas are made for cutting through exposed flesh and the curve in their edges makes them ideal for slashing.

 

Most 'kazu-uchi' (mass-produced, usually in a hurry) katanas were basically an iron edge wrapped around a bronze core.  Very simple, but the edges nicked easily when they hit bone.  Masterwork katanas usually utilize alloys and techniques thought up by master-smiths that let the edge hold even when it contacts bone or armor during a slash.  However, the basic idea of wrapping a harder metal around a softer one to form an edge is still the basic methodology. 

 

It's certainly one of the best swords ever made but it doesn't stand a chance against armored opponents. slashing doesn't work on plates and it's not a thrusting designed weapon.

 

Plus the use on the battlefield is limited on the one on one combat. Any drilled mass infantry could destroy a samurai force without too much problems. The Oda clan saw this and that's why the late sengoku era battles were fought by masses of peasant soldiers with their spears and arquebus.

 

One of the main reasons Japan isolated itself after the Sengoku era was precisely to prevent the country to transition from an elite samurai military force to a mass drilled infantry army like it was happening in Europe at that time.

[Hoshizora]

No naginata?
I love Kosame so very much with my heart (Tho Mare is still the best girl)

And Wanko from Majikoi is also uses it :3

[garejei]

Sniper rifle. I have a thing for women wielding large guns and in general I like sniper rifles a lot. They're also precise and powerful.

 

If we're talking fantasy (or a setting where sniper rifles don't exist), then a large bow of sorts.

 

Most recently, my favorite heroine in Gahkthun looked badass as all hell:

 

[Clephas]

Actually, it was because the presence of black powder weapons made it possible for peasants to kill a skilled samurai, thus making the samurai obsolete.  Ieyasu wanted stability for his descendants, so he created a locked-in caste system and eliminated the presence of black powder weaponry in order to prevent the possibility of popular uprisings overthrowing his descendants' rule. 

 

Also, while the katana is a slashing weapon primarily, it is also quite effective at thrusting.  In fact, when an individual is wielding one in both hands, it is actually better at thrusting than a rapier, as the natural movement of a two-handed thrust is to arch slightly and the two-handed thrust allows for more force to be behind the blow.  Also, thrusting one-handed to the side without turning the body and behind is more effective with a katana than with a western weapon like a rapier because of that tendency to slightly curve the trajectory of the thrust.  The reasons why rapiers/foils are primarily wielded from a side stance is not only to make it easier to protect the body by lowering the space exposed, but because straight thrusts don't come naturally in a forward stance.   This is also the primary reason why western long blades tended to be hack and slash weapons prior to the rapier.  Also, cavalry sabers are curved not only to allow for heavier blows along the curve but because a downward and forward thrust inevitably followed a curved trajectory.

 

 

Edit:  Also, Ieyasu created a system that was both decentralized and designed to impoverish the samurai, preventing daimyo from raising armies capable of challenging his family.  This was accomplished by requiring daimyo to regularly perform civil works such as building aqueducts, maintaining roads, building fortresses, and other such projects, and he also required the daimyo to live part of the year in the capitol and maintain a residence there, thus further draining their resources.

[Pabloc]

I kinda agree with Steve here.

Nothing beats a cute, innocent-looking loli wielding an oversized, ominous scythe (preferably smeared with fresh blood). That's just pure win. And what would she do? Well, generate a lot of nice, gory scenes. ^^

Scythes are one of my favorite weapons in general, they are just awesome. Only in fiction though, unfortunately they don't work that well in reality (being crude, improvised polearms at best). Though I also like poison, backstabbing, silenced sniper rifles and such. Sneaky assassination is simply much more practical than fair combat.

 

@Katanas

Yeah, they are certainly technological masterpieces. But the best? Not on the battlefield.

Even masterwork katanas were still more vulnerable than their common western counterparts, but were expensive as hell, and only deadly in the hands of a lightly armored, agile and very skilled foot soldier (facing equally lightly armored foe). Your average western-style sword could have been forged relatively easily by your local smith, was far cheaper, more sturdy, versatile and easier to use. And even that common, accessible weapon wasn't much worse than a finely crafted katana (that only really shined in the hands of an elite samurai).

Katanas are unmatched technologically, but in practice, many swords perform better.

 

@Maces

Wow, so many misconceptions there.

- if your enemy is only coated or it has a light armour, you strike on joints and bones, being the shoulders, head and elbow the prefered choices. once you strike even once at those points the junctures will crack and the bone will break. it's as simple as that. The intense pain would leave him unable to fight. Compared to cutting and piercing weapons that can only instakill people on few spots, a mace has a lot more options.

Everything that you listed can be done with other weapons just as well (you can cut/pierce joints instead of crushing them). Also, blunt weapons have much less instakill spots than piercing or slashing weapons. You can only deal instantly lethal damage by striking the head really (but that part is vulnerable to all attacks), dealing instant-kill damage by hitting, for example - the chest, would be much harder than with a spear or sword.
 

>Lighter and relatively easier to hold

>It's a weapon that uses dexterity more than strength.

Maces rely on brute strength and weight much more than other weapons. You don't really need a lot of finesse here - just bash away. A long as you hit something with enough force, even if it's an armored part or a shield, you will cause some impact damage anyway. And, most importantly, your opponent can loose balance - and like you said, that's bad news for all heavily armored knights. On the other hand, due to his weight you need a significant force to destabilize such an opponent. It's probably unlikely to do with a single-handed mace (unless you hit from horseback, as a surprise attack or something).

Also, blunt weapons aren't necessarily clean - if used effectively, they spray blood and brains everywhere. Well, just watch Bokusatsu Tenshi Dokuro-chan.

 

If you want a relatively clean, light weapon that heavily relies on finesse, choose a rapier or something like that.

[Kaguya]

I think assassins who use sniper rifles to kill are a lot more awesome than poison really.

Poison is more of an elegant solution, though- anyone can tell you've been murdered if you're killed by a sniper rifle, but poison doesn't leave traces on the body, and the victim generally won't realize until it's too late. It's cliche, but at least in my country, it's not like anyone would get an autopsy anyway.

 

Most importantly, it feels like you've beaten the person intelectually. You can just poison them without them noticing it, say good night with a smile and be confident they'll be dead by tomorrow. Well, it also depends on how potent the poison is and how long it takes for it to get working, though. 

[krill]

a garotte is a relatively clean weapon thats also very light and easy to conceal but even ones made of thin wire require a lot of strength to use properly , of course a flying guillotine would be very effective as well since its both ranged and flexible. but its major down fall is in its inability to do any damage to areas covered in armor and requires being able to properly aim to get the limb or head through the ring in the first place.

[O. Van Bruce]

Actually, it was because the presence of black powder weapons made it possible for peasants to kill a skilled samurai, thus making the samurai obsolete.  Ieyasu wanted stability for his descendants, so he created a locked-in caste system and eliminated the presence of black powder weaponry in order to prevent the possibility of popular uprisings overthrowing his descendants' rule. 

 

Also, while the katana is a slashing weapon primarily, it is also quite effective at thrusting.  In fact, when an individual is wielding one in both hands, it is actually better at thrusting than a rapier, as the natural movement of a two-handed thrust is to arch slightly and the two-handed thrust allows for more force to be behind the blow.  Also, thrusting one-handed to the side without turning the body and behind is more effective with a katana than with a western weapon like a rapier because of that tendency to slightly curve the trajectory of the thrust.  The reasons why rapiers/foils are primarily wielded from a side stance is not only to make it easier to protect the body by lowering the space exposed, but because straight thrusts don't come naturally in a forward stance.   This is also the primary reason why western long blades tended to be hack and slash weapons prior to the rapier.  Also, cavalry sabers are curved not only to allow for heavier blows along the curve but because a downward and forward thrust inevitably followed a curved trajectory.

 

 

Edit:  Also, Ieyasu created a system that was both decentralized and designed to impoverish the samurai, preventing daimyo from raising armies capable of challenging his family.  This was accomplished by requiring daimyo to regularly perform civil works such as building aqueducts, maintaining roads, building fortresses, and other such projects, and he also required the daimyo to live part of the year in the capitol and maintain a residence there, thus further draining their resources.

 

 

About the blackpowder issue, no disagreements on there. I did mention that Tokugawa's system favoured samurais but in shrwed sense, as you pointed out haha.

 

Katanas can certainly be thrusted but it's not your standar use of it. They are designed to slash.

 

The only issue about your post I have is that you aren't taking into account that curved blades used on western cavalry was limited to light forces (mainly named hussars). Their main task was not kill on the battefield but scouting and capturing retreating forces.

 

The real battle cavalry forces, mainly the Dragoons and Cuirassiers used heavy long straight blades to effectively dissable an oponent. The most a sabre could do was inflict a superficial cut: the enemy would still have a chance to keep fighting even if it were hit on one of the limbs... on the other hand, a straight heavy blade would have a higher chance to cut until the bone.

[krill]

tulwar and kopesh best curved swords in my taste

[O. Van Bruce]

@Pabloc, I did use the word instakill but in fact I was refering to instadisable. It's just that the word instakill does sound cooler. Cutting someone isn't the end of a fight, the other party can still move their articulations and still hack and slash you even if it would hurt like hell to him. Now, try to hack and slash with the joints and bones of your attacking arm reduced to pieces. All this without even having to apply that much force on the blow.

 

Why?

 

Do a simple experiment. get an 80 cm long stick and make someone hit your elbow with full force. Now, take a 40 cm stick, attach a 7,5 to 10 kg rock (make it spiky, to give a more brighter effect) to its end and repeat above.

 

Now, guess which one of the situations above would send you to the hospital

 

i'll give you a hint, so don't tell anyone, ok? just bettwen you and me

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

 

Ah, and about if someone can actually destabilize someone using a single handled mace, did you knw that the prefered weapon of full plated knights when going against other full plated knights was the mace and it's close sister, the battle hammer?

[ohiowar]

I go with scythe for now 

 

[Darklord Rooke]

I think you get the wrong idea about mace.

 

Mace is the oldest weapon type in the world. 

 

To deal enough damage, It need to be heavy because off the equation [Power = Mass x Speed] , the light one is need a lot of speed to deal the same damage as heavy one.

 

As Impact-type weapon, It isn't effective against armored target because the damage it causes will be absorbed by armor except impact force is higher than armor can absorb. (there is 3 type of physical attack, pierce(point of impact), slash(line of impact) and crash(area of impact). some armor can protect some type better than other.)

 

It also need full swing to use it effectively.

 

 

My weapon of choice is katana. The best sword in the history.

 

There were 3 ways to deal with folk wearing heavy armour. A) You pierced the joints (cutting attacks were useless). B) You broke the bones underneath the armour using heavy, impact weapons. C) You knocked the enemy off his feet and finished him off on the ground. This is why polearm weapons weapons and war hammers were so popular.

 

Maces were popular because they bypassed armour using option B. The effectiveness depended on the thickness of the plate, the force of impact and the mace itself. But they were fairly effective.

[Darklord Rooke]

Also, while the katana is a slashing weapon primarily, it is also quite effective at thrusting.  In fact, when an individual is wielding one in both hands, it is actually better at thrusting than a rapier, as the natural movement of a two-handed thrust is to arch slightly and the two-handed thrust allows for more force to be behind the blow.  Also, thrusting one-handed to the side without turning the body and behind is more effective with a katana than with a western weapon like a rapier because of that tendency to slightly curve the trajectory of the thrust.  The reasons why rapiers/foils are primarily wielded from a side stance is not only to make it easier to protect the body by lowering the space exposed, but because straight thrusts don't come naturally in a forward stance.   This is also the primary reason why western long blades tended to be hack and slash weapons prior to the rapier.  Also, cavalry sabers are curved not only to allow for heavier blows along the curve but because a downward and forward thrust inevitably followed a curved trajectory.

 

A) They weren't hack and slash weapons prior to the rapier.

 

B ) The katana was vastly inferior to thrusting compared to the longsword, which was also a 2 handed weapon.

 

Thrusting Ability - This is the capacity for a weapon to make penetrating stabs with its point. Whether against armored or unarmored opponents, a thrust has long been recognized as more difficult to defend against, easier to deliver a fatal wound with, and quicker and farther reaching than a cut. As has been known since ancient times and shown by fencers since the mid-16th century, the geometry of a straight weapon means its thrust hits more quickly and deceptively than does a curved or semi-curved one while also leaving the attacker less exposed. A longer blade can also stab out farther than a shorter one, and a narrower-point thrusts more quickly and with greater penetration than does a wider blade optimized more for cutting. The longsword's inherent design, particular center of gravity and hilt configuration, as well as its manner of fighting, take full advantage of this. Though the katana is certainly adept at thrusting, its configuration as a dedicated cutter gives up advantage in the thrusting department. Verdict: Longsword.

 

http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html

 

C) The katana, while an excellent cutting weapon, didn't have the variety that most western weapons did, because they didn't encounter as many problems. It was also shorter, and heavier, than most 2 handed western swords.

 

EDIT: D) The rapier wasn't a military weapon. It was a side sword for civilian use for self-defence on the streets, or duels or some such. A piercing weapon used on the battlefield designed to thrust against plate would be the estoc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

[Zhiroo]

No naginata?

I love Kosame so very much with my heart (Tho Mare is still the best girl)

And Wanko from Majikoi is also uses it :3

 

You missed my post. I especially mentioned Mokomoko and Wanko as well.

[O. Van Bruce]

There were 3 ways to deal with folk wearing heavy armour. A) You pierced the joints (cutting attacks were useless). B) You broke the bones underneath the armour using heavy, impact weapons. C) You knocked the enemy off his feet and finished him off on the ground. This is why polearm weapons weapons and war hammers were so popular.

 

Maces were popular because they bypassed armour using option B. The effectiveness depended on the thickness of the plate, the force of impact and the mace itself. But they were fairly effective.

 

Man, took long enough for someone to understand this. Maybe I'm a bad comunicator? it wouldn't be surprisng, given my native language isn't english.

[Aggressor]

Sniper rifle. I have a thing for women wielding large guns and in general I like sniper rifles a lot. They're also precise and powerful.

Like this?

Link: http://vndb.org/v12603

[The Major]

I've gotta go with handguns. And what would they do with it? Shoot... bad guys. sure.

 

 

Bows are also good. That would be my second choice

[Pabloc]

@O. Van Bruce

As it was already mentioned, all kinds of weapons could immobilize the opponent with one hit just fine. And that's kinda the point here - maces aren't somehow better (they only beat slashing weapons when the opponent is armored), and they rely on brutal, bone-mashing force, not finesse. Also, since the heaviest knights were often mounted, long polearms were much better at dealing with those (by unhorsing and knocking them to the ground, not by piercing joints).

Single-handed hammers were often used by mounted knights too. While foot soldier's used them too, those were heavier than swords and required a lot of strength to stun and knock down the enemy, unlike those "finesse maces" you were talking about. Also, hammers often relied on piercing damage (of their spike) to deal the killing blow to the armored opponent.

 

As for your stick example, the tip of the 80cm stick will have greater speed, which can compensate for a lower mass to some extent. 40cm stick+rock will be slower, but greater mass will increase damage. Everything depends on the weight of the 80cm stick, if it was heavy enough, it could cause more damage than the rock. That aside, ~11-12kg stone club is something damn heavy, good luck with swinging this monster using one hand.

[Katatsumuri]

Uhm... Guys? Sorry to break up your highly informative "effectiveness of different weaponry" discussion, but maybe that part of the topic should be moved to a separate topic in the "games and chatter" forum? Since it's an interesting discussion and all, but currently it's just derailing...