Japanese levels in nukiges/eroge

[garejei]

I thought learning kanji and grammar at the same time in a balanced way was just common sense.

 

My guess is the only way to get this so called vocabulary made specifically for a certain VN is to read it and write down sort of a dictionary per say of the words i didn't get.

After knowing ~500 basic kanji from RTK and studying grammar of course.

 

And yes i know nukiges are for fapping but a knowledgable fap is better than an out of context fap.

 

This quote should go down in history.

 

Pretty much. I just read a VN and every time an unknown kanji popped up I either jotted it down or copy/pasted it into a doc file for later reviewing (which I've been doing lately due to laziness)

[Guest loppez]

 

My guess is the only way to get this so called vocabulary made specifically for a certain VN is to read it and write down sort of a dictionary per say of the words i didn't get.

After knowing ~500 basic kanji from RTK and studying grammar of course.

 

And yes i know nukiges are for fapping but a knowledgable fap is better than an out of context fap.

 

This quote should go down in history.

500 basic kanji? what do you mean? 500 by JLPT level? By grade? By frequency of use?

 

I think you just get it all wrong. It is not like you learn 500 kanji and then you can read visual novels, especially some nukiges with specific language style.

 

Lets say you already know 500 or 1000 kanji, You install some nukige, ou look at your screen and surprise... you understand nothing. 

First japanese texts or visual novels you read are so painful. Each page gives you more and more words, grammar, kanji etc.

 

More you read, more you understand but if you are not ready to spend a lot of time on this (i mean it), just let it go.

 

So start now and in 1,5 or 2 years who knows, maybe you will be able to read simple vn

[Aggressor]

Just wanted to remind you that "kanji" and "words" are different things. Most words consist of two kanjis, and knowing meaning of each of them is not the same as knowing the meaning of the word. Take a simple 駄目 and try to guess the meaning from two separate kanjis, lol.

So, my point is: don't spend too much time on learning kanji, it's not a shortcut for reading VNs, more like the other way around. Learn entire words, and you'll quckly start to recognize something like 大丈夫 as a single word, not trying to break in down to kanji level. Hope this helps your fap reading.

[Nosebleed]

Thanks guys. This cleared a lot of doubts i had previously. I do have to start from somewhere so i'd still like to give RTK a read.

I'm also reading the recommended grammar book posted above. 

How long the process will take i can't tell. Unlike what the thread made it seem i'm not in a HUGE rush and i'm not expecting to be able to read stuff in 1 month. Like i said i made 1 year a goal to read this nukige in particular. I'll adjust my pace as i go of  course.

Memorizing words without knowing the kanji sounds hard though.

 

Edit:

Started reading Tae Kim's guide today. So far so good. 

The english level is clear for beginners (since my native language is not english) and it goes straight to the point and has useful resources (i'm using the android app on my tablet).

The only problem is it covers things in a different order: Hiragana > Katakana >Kanji

Therefore i will stick to the guide until the kanji stage and then i might mix it with RTK. 

I feel like this grammar guide will be very useful. I'm going to print some sheets even to practice character writing.

[zoom909]

Memorizing words without knowing the kanji sounds hard though.

It is, and yet it isn't.  It works well when restricted to a small set of commonly used vocabulary.  It's just a way to speed things up.  Another way to speed things up is to learn kanji in the order of most common usage (which from what I've heard is not necessarily RTK's order).  That can boost reading speed even while kanji learning is still in progress.

[Nosebleed]

It is, and yet it isn't.  It works well when restricted to a small set of commonly used vocabulary.  It's just a way to speed things up.  Another way to speed things up is to learn kanji in the order of most common usage (which from what I've heard is not necessarily RTK's order).  That can boost reading speed even while kanji learning is still in progress.

Well i decided to leave the kanji for a later stage and follow the grammar guide's order as i think this will give me a better foundation to incorporate kanji as opposed to just try and shove chinese characters into my brain and make things more efficient as far as understanding how words are formed. Then i guess i can try searching for more useful resources though i think the guide provies some aside from RTK and it even mentions in the overview that 2000 kanji make up over 95% of the average japanese adult reading and writing levels.

I'm going to stick with this for some months and practice writing because imo writing with pen and paper is the best way to memorize things, and then i'll see where it leads me.

Another positive side effect is that it teaches pronounciation and intonation  (with audio embeded) at the same time it teaches writing and reading so that's a plus.

[Guest loppez]

I'm going to stick with this for some months and practice writing because imo writing with pen and paper is the best way to memorize things, and then i'll see where it leads me.

Another positive side effect is that it teaches pronounciation and intonation  (with audio embeded) at the same time it teaches writing and reading so that's a plus.

writing is the best and the only way to truly learn kanji. not just to read, later on you will be able to write some text using kanji. 

 

stay pro. don't learn japanese just to read some games. you won't be reading vns forever

[Clephas]

I learned grammar and a limited vocab first... then I filled in the vocab watching anime and studying on my own... I didn't learn any kanji until after I'd started playing VNs in Japanese, lol.  By then, I had a complete knowledge of the vocab, grammar, and linguistics of Japanese... so playing with jparser was a piece of cake (I knew how Japanese syllables worked, so I was able to figure out correct romaji for times when it was obviously incorrect through linguistic reverse-engineering, lol) 

 

However, the other way, learning in a balanced manner, makes a lot more sense.  tbh, my way is really roundabout and as a result, I can think in, speak  fluently, and understand spoken Japanese completely, but I'm more iffy on kanji than someone who learned it all in the traditional manner.  I can only recognize at a glance about a thousand kanji, and the rest take time and sometimes a dictionary to figure out.  On the other hand, if I have the correct pronunciation available, I never miss, so my way might work for some people...

[Nosebleed]

So basically the same course i'm taking right now, grammar first to create a foundation and then start picking up vocab. Kanji comes later when i can incorporate it in as a whole and not just memorize random kanji as best as i can.

At least it seems more efficient in my head. And as a side effect i also learn the pronounciation and stuff.

I printed a bunch of practice sheets and i'm writing Hiragana on them in order to memorize it. I'll move on to the next lesson when i got a decent grasp on it.

[Mephisto]

Yeah that's the way to go about it, the grinding Kanji by itself method really isn't an effective method for learning japanese. It amounts to the same thing as grinding out random vocabulary books in english, and then having the added kicker that the "words" can be combined with different "words" to mean completely different ideas. It probably works for japanese people since they already know enough japanese to simply expand some of their knowledge to Kanji they are not familiar with(however for them to be able to use it properly, they likely still have to see it in context).

 

Once you learn enough about grammar, you should be able to read simpler VNs easily enough with a text hooker, and you will be able to build on your knowledge every day simply by browsing the internet/reading random japanese lines/watching anime. You pick up Kanji from context like this, which is how it is meant to be picked up. (That's how they teach you Kanji in japanese courses as well, in fact, that's how they teach you Chinese as well.)

[Clephas]

Without grammar as a framework, it is impossible to learn a language (edit: in a reasonable amount of time).  With most languages, you pick up the ands ifs and buts of the language first, along with basics like hello, no, I, you, and the like.  You then move on to making small sentences, along with learning simple vocab in a concentrated area (like food, shops, clothing, etc) before expanding into more complex grammar.  If you don't know the sentence structure a language uses, for instance, you can't comprehend just what the mass of words in a sentence mean.  Kanji is basically a shortcut for understanding individual words, since it is a symbolic rather than a phonetic written language, but without the grammar, it is like having a bunch of puzzle pieces with no reference points as to how to put them together.

[Guest loppez]

Without grammar as a framework, it is impossible to learn a language (edit: in a reasonable amount of time).  With most languages, you pick up the ands ifs and buts of the language first, along with basics like hello, no, I, you, and the like.  You then move on to making small sentences, along with learning simple vocab in a concentrated area (like food, shops, clothing, etc) before expanding into more complex grammar.  If you don't know the sentence structure a language uses, for instance, you can't comprehend just what the mass of words in a sentence mean.  Kanji is basically a shortcut for understanding individual words, since it is a symbolic rather than a phonetic written language, but without the grammar, it is like having a bunch of puzzle pieces with no reference points as to how to put them together.

you can't compare japanese to western languages. it makes no sense. 

everywone has a different way to learn japanese. you just describe casual way.

some people learn kanji with heising first, then they start grammar and vocab, others go more oldschool. both methods work fine. it is all up to you what you choose.

[Clephas]

Umm... I was just describing learning ALL languages.  While the syntax and basic grammar of Japanese is dramatically different from Western languages, the basic methodology for learning it if it isn't your first language.  The only real difference is the presence of kanji, which is an example of a symbolic writing system, which aren't used for most Western languages.

 

Edit: In addition, there is no such thing as a 'casual' way to learn Japanese.  There is formal study and individual learning.  The former has you sit in a classroom, the latter has you work on it without the crutch of fellow students and a teacher.   You either learn and master the language or you don't. 

 

Edit2: Also, I remarked that my method was the harder one and isn't really to be recommended.  It takes more effort, more energy, and it takes longer.  If I had continued to sit in a classroom past those two semesters in high school, I would have picked up the language much faster (though my approach to understanding it would have been different, and I most likely wouldn't have succeeded in reaching the point where I can think naturally in Japanese).  I was fortunate, in that my teacher prioritized forcing us to learn grammar first, thus giving me the basis I needed to understand a great deal more later.

[Guest loppez]

Umm... I was just describing learning ALL languages.  While the syntax and basic grammar of Japanese is dramatically different from Western languages, the basic methodology for learning it if it isn't your first language.  The only real difference is the presence of kanji, which is an example of a symbolic writing system, which aren't used for most Western languages.

 

Edit: In addition, there is no such thing as a 'casual' way to learn Japanese.  There is formal study and individual learning.  The former has you sit in a classroom, the latter has you work on it without the crutch of fellow students and a teacher.   You either learn and master the language or you don't. 

 

Edit2: Also, I remarked that my method was the harder one and isn't really to be recommended.  It takes more effort, more energy, and it takes longer.  If I had continued to sit in a classroom past those two semesters in high school, I would have picked up the language much faster (though my approach to understanding it would have been different, and I most likely wouldn't have succeeded in reaching the point where I can think naturally in Japanese).  I was fortunate, in that my teacher prioritized forcing us to learn grammar first, thus giving me the basis I needed to understand a great deal more later.

 

you have to understand we are all different. let me explain what i mean.

 

method 1 - kanji first, then vocabulary is much easier. how? 

let's say you already know kanji: 遠 = distance, far away, 足 = foot. now you see word 遠足 - trip. how to connect it? just make short story. for example, i go far away with my foot (lol), i mean trip.

 

for some people it works great.

 

method 2 i call it casual way, some grammar, vocabulary and kanji.

 

method 3 something mixed.

 

etc.

 

which one is the best? which one is the fastest? it depends on people.

 

sometimes learning grammar is not important. you don't know why you say "i don't like to swim" instead of "i swim like don't". you just do it. it feels right because you have seen it many times before. you know some vocabulary and you just see it in action by reading, watching cartoons, movies, you use language, you learn by making mistakes.

i know many people who learnt english in less than one year just by using it. i didn't learn english grammar at all. i still make mistakes but it is only matter of time.

same thing with japanese, if you know kanji ofc

 

keep in mind it dosn't work for everyone. some people need to go "casual way". it only showes we all have different way to learn languages. just choose method you like.

 

btw. i have friend who's been living in japan for 10 years. he speaks japanese fluently, he has japanes wife, kids and he works in japanese company. last year he didn't pass n2 exam....

[Sparkker]

... Well, Good for you with my laziness, I'm still stuck with 100 Kanji XD half a year later....

Like what I said/showed Defendos before.. Games from these 2 companies might interest you...

(Well, I don't want to see any "Kyaa" madness but what the heck.) Shiritsu Sakuranbo Shougakkou Shining Star 
 

[Nosebleed]

... Well, Good for you with my laziness, I'm still stuck with 100 Kanji XD half a year later....

Like what I said/showed Defendos before.. Games from these 2 companies might interest you...

(Well, I don't want to see any "Kyaa" madness but what the heck.) Shiritsu Sakuranbo Shougakkou Shining Star 

 

I'll definitely learn japanese for this purpose.. *nosebleed*

[Chronopolis]

I think the grammar is something you want to let sink in. You can read Tae Kim in a few days and not be able to understand anything. It's not really difficult grammar, but to really integrate the various forms, it's helpful to have read about them once, encountered them in VN/anime/whatev, then read about it a second time, etc...

All of this to say, you should probably do both kanji and grammar in parallel, since you're more likely to get an intuitive comprehension of grammar (= faster comprehension = better comprehension) if you dilute it over time.

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure there are types of learners for whom bruteforcing the thing is the most efficient way.

I agree. Read through Tae Kim's guide: if you get stuck, go read something else and come back to it later. Even after you finish his guide, you can always review it at a later date.

 

I would say Tae Kim's guide is better at giving you perspective of sentence structure and grammar as a whole, but in his refusal to dumb things down, the resulant text is somewhat harder to read. Genki is better structured, and has footnotes for when grammar points refer to each other. Some of Tae Kim's grammar goes farther than Genki, but Tae Kim doesn't cover close to everything in Genki. It wouldn't hurt to read parts or the entirity of both, for starters.

 

Read the first section of Tae Kim.

Learn how to read about ~100 - 300 words. Prioritize verbs if you don't know what to learn. Just a list of the most common words will do.

Continue reading Tae Kim and start busting through Genki.

When you are done Genki 1 and 2, you should be alright to start reading easy stuff.

 

From then on: Reading-Grammar-Vocab

Rinse and repeat.

 

I agree with garejei. In any nukige, etc, you're still going to have description of the surrounding living enviroments, thoughts and actions of the protagonist, etc. When people say "the simplest possible", they mean that there is close to zero area-specific terms, and no plot to need to understand.

[castor212]

Guyz, bit question? Most of you said that that there's about 2200 kanji there is to learn, but the Heisig pack I downloaded for anki contains approximately 3029 kanji. 3000th is this:鼈.

 

So do I stop at 2200 or just keep on till 3029? Currently at 1200.