Sexism in visual novels

[Ryoji]

You know, I decided to play Yume Miru Kusuri - A Drug That Makes You Dream last night. I had just finished Da Capo 2 and was looking for another good VN. This had been recommended to me so i thought id give it a try.

First route deals with bullying. Man, hard to read I gotta tell you.

A girl is really bullied and noone does a damn thing about it to help her. Not even the MC. I gotta admit im struggling to get through this. I could not sit by and watch that happen to a stranger, much less a classmate ya know?. No way in hell.

Bullying has always been an issue in Japan. The suicide rate in teens in crazy high. It makes me sad that they are not doing more to put a stop to it.

Really difficult to finish this VN, anyone played it know what im tralking about???

[Joachim]

You know, I decided to play Yume Miru Kusuri - A Drug That Makes You Dream last night. I had just finished Da Capo 2 and was looking for another good VN. This had been recommended to me so i thought id give it a try.

First route deals with bullying. Man, hard to read I gotta tell you.

A girl is really bullied and noone does a damn thing about it to help her. Not even the MC. I gotta admit im struggling to get through this. I could not sit by and watch that happen to a stranger, much less a classmate ya know?. No way in hell.

Bullying has always been an issue in Japan. The suicide rate in teens in crazy high. It makes me sad that they are not doing more to put a stop to it.

Really difficult to finish this VN, anyone played it know what im tralking about???

I understand what you mean, I have seen it in some seinen anime as well. It is almost every time the least enjoyable part and I have to force myself through. Oddly I find it more cruel than loads of blood and guts splattered all over the screen. It might be because it's depiction is true, and I imagine that many people have to live through it. So much cruelty is unbearable, but having too much empathy for that kind of real life things doesn't help I guess.

[Moekou]

Oh, I love Yume Miru Kisuri as it was my first serious VN (well, besides maybe Narcissu which I also recommend, it's a short and minimalistic freeware VN).

Sadly as you mentioned, even though some people thought the bullying was just for drama, it's pretty accurate and a widespread occurrence. Anyone daring to defend the victim would become the next victim, and even worse, sometimes the victim may even turn on their defender to try to win "cool" points with the popular crowd.

Aeka~! ;_;

Makes it difficult for me to take the other routes because I have to ignore her, but that also makes a point, as the narration goes out of the way to always tell you that the two girls you did not help out basically have their lives screwed. It really reminds the reader of all the silent suffering going on behind people's backs that most just ignore.

[Joachim]

Oh, I love Yume Miru Kisuri as it was my first serious VN (well, besides maybe Narcissu which I also recommend, it's a short and minimalistic freeware VN).

Sadly as you mentioned, even though some people thought the bullying was just for drama, it's pretty accurate and a widespread occurrence. Anyone daring to defend the victim would become the next victim, and even worse, sometimes the victim may even turn on their defender to try to win "cool" points with the popular crowd.

Aeka~! ;_;

Makes it difficult for me to take the other routes because I have to ignore her, but that also makes a point, as the narration goes out of the way to always tell you that the two girls you did not help out basically have their lives screwed. It really reminds the reader of all the silent suffering going on behind people's backs that most just ignore.

I tried Narcissu but gave up on chapter 5 or something, I couldn't stand the awkward silence between the two. I would have kicked her out of the car in his place . I'll have to give the game a better try next time !

You make me want to try Yume Miru Kisuri out though, the way you talk about it seems like the vn rewards the reader that keeps going on. Hard stories sometimes have huge payoffs, so it makes it worth the effort and suffering.

[Ryoji]

Oh, I love Yume Miru Kisuri as it was my first serious VN (well, besides maybe Narcissu which I also recommend, it's a short and minimalistic freeware VN).

Sadly as you mentioned, even though some people thought the bullying was just for drama, it's pretty accurate and a widespread occurrence. Anyone daring to defend the victim would become the next victim, and even worse, sometimes the victim may even turn on their defender to try to win "cool" points with the popular crowd.

Aeka~! ;_;

Makes it difficult for me to take the other routes because I have to ignore her, but that also makes a point, as the narration goes out of the way to always tell you that the two girls you did not help out basically have their lives screwed. It really reminds the reader of all the silent suffering going on behind people's backs that most just ignore.

My wife is Japanese, shes told me how bad it was in the all girls school she went to. In her senior year 8 people commited suicide.

This is just horrible.

Sadly as you mentioned, even though some people thought the bullying was just for drama, it's pretty accurate and a widespread occurrence. Anyone daring to defend the victim would become the next victim, and even worse, sometimes the victim may even turn on their defender to try to win "cool" points with the popular crowd.

Yeah my wife and I talked for a couple hours about this last night. Its amazing how bad it is. and hell that was a long time ago for her. According to her cousins, its a lot worse now.

Man this really bothers me. I just cant shake the thought of a kid being so bullied that he/she takes their own life. The government/teachers need to fucking do something about this shit.

Pardon my language but hell man!!

[harry_kinomoto]

First route deals with bullying. Man, hard to read I gotta tell you.

A girl is really bullied and noone does a damn thing about it to help her. Not even the MC. I gotta admit im struggling to get through this. I could not sit by and watch that happen to a stranger, much less a classmate ya know?. No way in hell.

As much as self-inserting yourself as the protagonist is frowned upon in certain fan-circles, I think many VNs, with their bland, faceless protags, are actually tailored to encourage people to consider: "what would if I do if I were in his shoes??". Joachim mentioned something about how hard stories often have huge payoffs and I think that's a nice way to think about it - the greatest stories are those that make you feel such a massive level of unease about something in the real world that you end up feeling you MUST do something about it, and I think the tendency to self-insert is one way in which VNs deliver their message. Indeed I think it's one of the unique features of art and media in general that what they show tends to be a mirror of reality - what some academics call a cultural barometer. And the fact that they're actually try to do something about it in their own unique way, imo, is quite beautiful and special.

My wife is Japanese, shes told me how bad it was in the all girls school she went to. In her senior year 8 people commited suicide.

This is just horrible.

Yeah my wife and I talked for a couple hours about this last night. Its amazing how bad it is. and hell that was a long time ago for her. According to her cousins, its a lot worse now.

Man this really bothers me. I just cant shake the thought of a kid being so bullied that he/she takes their own life. The government/teachers need to fucking do something about this shit.

Pardon my language but hell man!!

Definitely with you there. But the worst thing is that for every person who committed suicide, there are probably like 10 more behind them who didn't, but continue feeling the negative effects of the bullying way into their adult lives. I've recently become quite interested in the Japanese condition termed the Hikikomori - a very strange phenomenon where young adolescents shut themselves in their room and literally stay there and not go out, sometimes for years on end. One theory behind why this happens suggests bullying may have a part to play, in that the victims become fearful of going out because the bullying conditions them into the mindset that they're, quite literally, worthless and unable to survive in the world. And while the link itself hasn't been causally proven, I'm sure we don't need a study to tell us that getting bullied doesn't do anything for your self-esteem whatever the case! That being said I do wonder if "beat bullying" campaigns have ever been tried out in Japan....

[Saber]

In terms of bullying and whatnot, I definitely think that this is a major factor not just in japan but in many other countries. Bullying can really make someone fear the world, and make them reclusive and shy away from the outside world. I know this because I'm speaking from experience and it's not easy to get out of it. You'll need a lot of support and someone to depend on.

I had manage to somehow prevent someone from considering suicide from bullying by standing up to the bully and make sure that I always encourage her. In the end I definitely and absolutely despise bullying and suicide as well.

[Ryoji]

In terms of bullying and whatnot, I definitely think that this is a major factor not just in japan but in many other countries. Bullying can really make someone fear the world, and make them reclusive and shy away from the outside world. I know this because I'm speaking from experience and it's not easy to get out of it. You'll need a lot of support and someone to depend on.

I had manage to somehow prevent someone from considering suicide from bullying by standing up to the bully and make sure that I always encourage her. In the end I definitely and absolutely despise bullying and suicide as well.

Good for you man. I have to say, I applaud you on standing up for not only yourself, but another person as well. Takes balls, if youll pardon the expression.

[Moekou]

The government/teachers need to fucking do something about this shit.

Ah, that reminds me of something relevant to this thread. Joachim mentioned earlier it was shocking how a good person like Shirou could actually think someone being raped is "teaching her femininity."

Well, sadly, from what I heard, this is actually the attitude many teachers have towards bullying. A number simply believe it is teaching the children to not try to stand out, as society tends to geared more towards conformity than Western nation. Thus, there is a culture of fear towards standing out from the norms as that makes one a target of bullying, and since bullying is pervasive even outside of high school, teachers take the attitude that it's just prepping kids to deal with the real world or college. "It can't be helped" is a popular Japanese idiom and gets applied to these situations, where even teachers just accept it as status quo.

This attitude is also a reason why, for example, porn is still censored in Japan even though the Western countries that demanded this in the first place have long since stopped doing it. No politician is willing to stand out out of fear of being targeted.

[Ryoji]

Ah, that reminds me of something relevant to this thread. Joachim mentioned earlier it was shocking how a good person like Shirou could actually think someone being raped is "teaching her femininity."

Well, sadly, from what I heard, this is actually the attitude many teachers have towards bullying. A number simply believe it is teaching the children to not try to stand out, as society tends to geared more towards conformity than Western nation. Thus, there is a culture of fear towards standing out from the norms as that makes one a target of bullying, and since bullying is pervasive even outside of high school, teachers take the attitude that it's just prepping kids to deal with the real world or college. "It can't be helped" is a popular Japanese idiom and gets applied to these situations, where even teachers just accept it as status quo.

This attitude is also a reason why, for example, porn is still censored in Japan even though the Western countries that demanded this in the first place have long since stopped doing it. No politician is willing to stand out out of fear of being targeted.

I love Japan. Alot. But man i just dont get how teachers, TEACHERS of all people, can do that shit at all.

[Joachim]

As much as self-inserting yourself as the protagonist is frowned upon in certain fan-circles, I think many VNs, with their bland, faceless protags, are actually tailored to encourage people to consider: "what would if I do if I were in his shoes??". Joachim mentioned something about how hard stories often have huge payoffs and I think that's a nice way to think about it - the greatest stories are those that make you feel such a massive level of unease about something in the real world that you end up feeling you MUST do something about it, and I think the tendency to self-insert is one way in which VNs deliver their message. Indeed I think it's one of the unique features of art and media in general that what they show tends to be a mirror of reality - what some academics call a cultural barometer. And the fact that they're actually try to do something about it in their own unique way, imo, is quite beautiful and special.

I find even more powerful in vns as they tend to be much more immersive than other media. On the small list of my already read vns there is already a huge amount that deals about important topics in a relatable and meaningful way. The only thing holding them back to become more mainstream, or at least more mature, is to loose this whole dating sim side. It is a heavily troped genre, with many expectations like being about young people, in school, or with this and this kind of character. They are cranked and can't realise their full potential. My highest hope is that the genre will get more mature as its audience is aging.

Definitely with you there. But the worst thing is that for every person who committed suicide, there are probably like 10 more behind them who didn't, but continue feeling the negative effects of the bullying way into their adult lives. I've recently become quite interested in the Japanese condition termed the Hikikomori - a very strange phenomenon where young adolescents shut themselves in their room and literally stay there and not go out, sometimes for years on end. One theory behind why this happens suggests bullying may have a part to play, in that the victims become fearful of going out because the bullying conditions them into the mindset that they're, quite literally, worthless and unable to survive in the world. And while the link itself hasn't been causally proven, I'm sure we don't need a study to tell us that getting bullied doesn't do anything for your self-esteem whatever the case! That being said I do wonder if "beat bullying" campaigns have ever been tried out in Japan....

I searched about it myself after watching Welcome to the NHK. It is almost as sad as suicide . They should make more anime, mangas or vns about these issues. At least it is deeply emotional and people feel empathy instead of fear or disgust.

In most animes school life is shown has this beautiful time of friendship and happiness, like the most wonderful place that might exist. I like it, but sometimes it annoys me because it just make people believe it could be true, and all these problems we are talking about are completely vanishing from the mind of the viewers. It is much easier to assume that only a small portion of people are victims, weak people that would otherwise been victims of something else. We humans really are fascinating in how emotionally involved we are, and at the same time completetly deny feelings of others.

In terms of bullying and whatnot, I definitely think that this is a major factor not just in japan but in many other countries. Bullying can really make someone fear the world, and make them reclusive and shy away from the outside world. I know this because I'm speaking from experience and it's not easy to get out of it. You'll need a lot of support and someone to depend on.

I had manage to somehow prevent someone from considering suicide from bullying by standing up to the bully and make sure that I always encourage her. In the end I definitely and absolutely despise bullying and suicide as well.

Thank you, it is heartwarming to read you got someone back on her feet ! In our time it is quite rare for people to take the time and take care of others. At least this person will be able to enjoy her life again, and find her own happiness.

As you said, bullying is happening outside of japan, but maybe on a different scale. In each class I was in school there always was someone to be take all the aggressivity and frustration, in form of pranks, laughters or plain malice. I heard the really hard core stuff happens in the private schools after the graduation, here in France. At least once a year they talk about it on the news, going as far as rape and sexual harassement altogether, even torture. When the victimes go to justice, the schools and their students try to discredit them. They say it is a ritual and aimed to be funny. I can't believe these people are supposed to become the gray matter of our society so to speak.

Ah, that reminds me of something relevant to this thread. Joachim mentioned earlier it was shocking how a good person like Shirou could actually think someone being raped is "teaching her femininity."

Well, sadly, from what I heard, this is actually the attitude many teachers have towards bullying. A number simply believe it is teaching the children to not try to stand out, as society tends to geared more towards conformity than Western nation. Thus, there is a culture of fear towards standing out from the norms as that makes one a target of bullying, and since bullying is pervasive even outside of high school, teachers take the attitude that it's just prepping kids to deal with the real world or college. "It can't be helped" is a popular Japanese idiom and gets applied to these situations, where even teachers just accept it as status quo.

This attitude is also a reason why, for example, porn is still censored in Japan even though the Western countries that demanded this in the first place have long since stopped doing it. No politician is willing to stand out out of fear of being targeted.

As much as I like Japan, this country has really deep problems. They seem to fear any kind of self criticim. Not that we are better mind you, but at least people get out of their way to change things in the west, even though it still takes time. At the same time I'm trying to imagine if japanese weren't as attached to their tradition. Traditions are sadly a whole package and you can't be picky about it, you take it or leave it. Without it people might be happier, but all the things that makes us marvel when reading vns, or watching animes, might vanish as well.

I love Japan. Alot. But man i just dont get how teachers, TEACHERS of all people, can do that shit at all.

I have a friend who lived for some years in the US, and went to school there. Teachers and school in general left a great impression on him. It was a shock arriving in france, so much that he had to redo the same class over. My point is that here in France, despite having not that much problem with bullying at school, the suicide rate is still pretty high because teachers put a lot of pressure on students. Many people, like me just stopped going to school because of how much painful it can become. Teachers think they have a duty to form the next generation of citizen, and they have pretty high standards, if the students don't meet their expectations then they just aren't worth their attention. I can't imagine what a hell hole japan's school life is .

[Tay]

I'm glad to be coming into this thread just as it's finishing up, as so many good points have been made. A long time ago I started a similar topic (which Harry linked to) about H scenes in VNs and whether or not they were necessary. I've been slowly digesting that topic, and the multitude of opinions expressed, and think that a few points I learned are applicable here. This is one of my famous "Prof. Tay" posts Harry loves to mock (i.e. it's long, so feel free to ignore it )

1) Stories (in general, VNs in specifics) are an insight into the culture that produced them. The sexism we perceive in dialogue (not referencing FSN, but other games such as Sharin no Kuni and G Senjou no Maou) is often legitimate based on our experiences, but isn't quite as difficult to swallow when projected onto Japanese culture. We need to take these things and understand them in context of Japanese culture.

Regarding the topics covered here, let's remember that traditional gender roles in Japan are not what Westerner's expect (see wiki on Feminism in Japan, and Women in Japan), and we have to remember that Japanese feminism is targeted less on individual autonomy versus men and more on the positions women hold in society. In that regard, VNs are occasionally progressive: capable heroines with important roles or powers are images meant to empower women. FSN link: Saber and Rin have often been pointed at as powerful women figures in Japanese media (or, in other words, worthy of emulation). Kind of interesting.

2. VNs are a lucrative business and are, ultimately, products to be sold. The sad truth is that erogue (most VNs as we know them) is targeted toward male audiences, and features "selling assets" to promote sales (sex scenes, fan service, protagonists embodying Japanese masculine ideals). FSN is a unique jewel, but among other VNs there is unquestionably male-dominant/sexist situations and conversations. Again, with the exception of FSN and maybe one other VN, I'd opine that if you think you're encountering a sexist moment, you're probably right.

It's not right, and it's difficult to swallow, but these masculine ideals are as engrained in the Japanese culture as similar ideals are engrained in the Western world.

3. (This has been mentioned a lot here) Almost all VNs are written expecting you to project into the protagonist's role. This is no secret and is officially acknowledged by major studios like Akabeisoft2, Key, and others. I realize that many of us here don't do this, but like with many novels (the Twilight books, for example, which up until the movies featured a bland and one-size-fits-all protagonist so the reader could project onto the character) VNs are written to be experienced. Whether or not we realize it, that's a major reason why all of us have such powerful emotional reactions to VNs. (This is a really interesting thing, and is called "Reader's Psychology" in the US)

When this fact is coupled with my second point (masculine ideals in protagonists), the stressors we're discussing in this thread are bound to pop up.

Anyway, I'm still thinking through this part of the VN world. If nothing else, it's something I'd like to change with the advent of the Western VN. But that's a topic for another day.

[harry_kinomoto]

In most animes school life is shown has this beautiful time of friendship and happiness, like the most wonderful place that might exist. I like it, but sometimes it annoys me because it just make people believe it could be true, and all these problems we are talking about are completely vanishing from the mind of the viewers. It is much easier to assume that only a small portion of people are victims, weak people that would otherwise been victims of something else. We humans really are fascinating in how emotionally involved we are, and at the same time completetly deny feelings of others.

It is precisely the magic of the medium that it shows it what it COULD be, and in so doing challenges us to MAKE it that way. Indeed, several argue that Art, in itself, is all about the idea of making something extraordinary out of the ordinary. Putting these principles into practice in reality is of course extremely difficult, but I think should be encouraged. I had often dreamed about founding an institution teaching everyone what CCS (basically my first formative anime, as it were) had taught me a long time ago. Maybe part of that dream could be realised through this dream of spreading the joy of VNs~

I have a friend who lived for some years in the US, and went to school there. Teachers and school in general left a great impression on him. It was a shock arriving in france, so much that he had to redo the same class over. My point is that here in France, despite having not that much problem with bullying at school, the suicide rate is still pretty high because teachers put a lot of pressure on students. Many people, like me just stopped going to school because of how much painful it can become. Teachers think they have a duty to form the next generation of citizen, and they have pretty high standards, if the students don't meet their expectations then they just aren't worth their attention. I can't imagine what a hell hole japan's school life is .

Absolutely shocking; and here I was thinking this behaviour only existed in Asia (ie oriental and Indian cultures)!! I was brought up in Singapore, and remember reading headlines on how the top students on finding out the good news of their perfect, straight A* exam scores on results day, felt not happiness but relief of the massive burden that had been lifted off them - very sad state of affairs imo....

*******

Regarding the topics covered here, let's remember that traditional gender roles in Japan are not what Westerner's expect (see wiki on Feminism in Japan, and Women in Japan), and we have to remember that Japanese feminism is targeted less on individual autonomy versus men and more on the positions women hold in society. In that regard, VNs are occasionally progressive: capable heroines with important roles or powers are images meant to empower women. FSN link: Saber and Rin have often been pointed at as powerful women figures in Japanese media (or, in other words, worthy of emulation). Kind of interesting.

An interesting insight~ However, while it is right that culture is often an explanation for why people act in a certain way, it should never be used as a justification for it. Put it this way: if we learnt that someone had ended up a criminal because they grew up in a poverty-stricken area and surrounded by murderers and drug-dealers, we may be able to empathise why they might have turned out the way they did. However, it doesn't mean that what they were doing was in any way "right".

I therefore don't believe that Saber and Rin are good examples of "powerful female figures", no matter how many people think they are, simply because even though they may have high social statuses and exceptionally accomplished in their fields, if you're going to later show certain scenes where they end up totally totally submissive, I guess I found that it kind of ends up feeling a bit....meaningless?? And its' nice that people are trying to emulate people with strong personalities, I guess; I just hope that they're appropriately selective in what they choose to emulate!!

Well, sadly, from what I heard, this is actually the attitude many teachers have towards bullying. A number simply believe it is teaching the children to not try to stand out, as society tends to geared more towards conformity than Western nation. Thus, there is a culture of fear towards standing out from the norms as that makes one a target of bullying, and since bullying is pervasive even outside of high school, teachers take the attitude that it's just prepping kids to deal with the real world or college. "It can't be helped" is a popular Japanese idiom and gets applied to these situations, where even teachers just accept it as status quo.

Another very interesting insight~ That being said it's worth noting that people seem to get bullied for any reason whatsoever - coming out top in their class is one of the best ones I've heard so far. Just another example, imo, where behaviours aren't justified just because they're a cultural norm....

*****

Ok just a few more curiosities before I go to bed.....

1) Stories (in general, VNs in specifics) are an insight into the culture that produced them. The sexism we perceive in dialogue (not referencing FSN, but other games such as Sharin no Kuni and G Senjou no Maou) is often legitimate based on our experiences, but isn't quite as difficult to swallow when projected onto Japanese culture. We need to take these things and understand them in context of Japanese culture.

I actually am finding it difficult to find instances where those VNs were sexist...can you recall specific examples?

3. (This has been mentioned a lot here) Almost all VNs are written expecting you to project into the protagonist's role. This is no secret and is officially acknowledged by major studios like Akabeisoft2, Key, and others.

Did not know this! Got a reference? Definitely like to examine in what context this was said...

This is one of my famous "Prof. Tay" posts Harry loves to mock (i.e. it's long, so feel free to ignore it )

Oh hey don't say that~ it is only with professorial colleagues such as yourself that I am able to engage in such heated debate in the name of furthering both our knowledge! You should be honoured~

[Tay]

Well said, Harry. Well said. (Not gonna quote Harry's post, because it was all excellent and I'd have to quote the entire thing)

PS: And yes, I'll try and find that interview about VNs written for self-projection. It's somewhere on the net...

PPS: And re: Prof Tay = Oh, I am honored! I meant it all in good humor ; ).

[Joachim]

It is precisely the magic of the medium that it shows it what it COULD be, and in so doing challenges us to MAKE it that way. Indeed, several argue that Art, in itself, is all about the idea of making something extraordinary out of the ordinary. Putting these principles into practice in reality is of course extremely difficult, but I think should be encouraged. I had often dreamed about founding an institution teaching everyone what CCS (basically my first formative anime, as it were) had taught me a long time ago. Maybe part of that dream could be realised through this dream of spreading the joy of VNs~

It is indeed praiseworthy ! I believe in the same principles than you, and I wish to show to as many people as possible these experiences. Though my point was different. I believe that overly fantastical settings become escapism, and bring people to shut off from the "3D world" because of its frustrations. Some people can get incredible expectations because of these fantasy, and nothing outside this world is capable of providing their desires. The most common problem though is people getting a narrow point of view about situations and their solutions. This is not only the case of vns of course, it is a problem of popular culture in general. My opinion is that you not only have to make this content available and popular, but educate this future audience as well. People need to be more critical to get more from their entertainment, and at the same time give incentives to the authors to improve the overall quality of it.

Absolutely shocking; and here I was thinking this behaviour only existed in Asia (ie oriental and Indian cultures)!! I was brought up in Singapore, and remember reading headlines on how the top students on finding out the good news of their perfect, straight A* exam scores on results day, felt not happiness but relief of the massive burden that had been lifted off them - very sad state of affairs imo....

I have personally known a person who hang himself after being refused by a graduate school. It is the same situation in germany. After years of pressure by the school, people feel their life is at stake. School isn't supposed to be hell's kitchen .

An interesting insight~ However, while it is right that culture is often an explanation for why people act in a certain way, it should never be used as a justification for it. Put it this way: if we learnt that someone had ended up a criminal because they grew up in a poverty-stricken area and surrounded by murderers and drug-dealers, we may be able to empathise why they might have turned out the way they did. However, it doesn't mean that what they were doing was in any way "right".

I therefore don't believe that Saber and Rin are good examples of "powerful female figures", no matter how many people think they are, simply because even though they may have high social statuses and exceptionally accomplished in their fields, if you're going to later show certain scenes where they end up totally totally submissive, I guess I found that it kind of ends up feeling a bit....meaningless?? And its' nice that people are trying to emulate people with strong personalities, I guess; I just hope that they're appropriately selective in what they choose to emulate!!

Another very interesting insight~ That being said it's worth noting that people seem to get bullied for any reason whatsoever - coming out top in their class is one of the best ones I've heard so far. Just another example, imo, where behaviours aren't justified just because they're a cultural norm....

Nicely said ! I can't agree more with you. You said it perfectly as well, so this earns you a reputation point .