Sexism in visual novels

[Joachim]

This subject poped out of my mind as I am actually in the middle of a playthrough of Fate/stay night.

In the last scene I read, Saber went to fight a servant in the temple on her own, against the will of Shirou (the main character). Spoiler happens, and then they come back home. Their arguments is what got me upset. I like the protagonist, he is a very honest person, he has much humility and accept his place easily, even as a burden.

Though he tells Saber not to fight because she is a woman... She has to be protected by him, the useless weakling, because he is a guy... And Tohsaka, the headstrong and ressourceful girl, defend him saying it is just his way to say he cares !

Until then I enjoyed greatly the story, but at this very moment I felt insulted as a reader. I understand these stories are basicly fantasies for men, and that having control over women is part of that. Still I think this felt like destroying these character they build, reacting the opposite of what they actually would. And most importantly, having the main character say that, is like having the reader saying it. I am still pondering if I will continue the story nevertheless, as, except for this part, the writing is top notch.

That brought me to wonder, what are you thoughts about this guys. Have you ever experienced sexism in visual novels and how did you react to it ? Is it just overreacting on my part ? Any insights would be great to have, as my biases might prevent me to be objective on this subject.

[Moekou]

This subject poped out of my mind as I am actually in the middle of a playthrough of Fate/stay night.

In the last scene I read, Saber went to fight a servant in the temple on her own, against the will of Mirou (the main character). Spoiler happens, and then they come back home. Their arguments is what got me upset. I like the protagonist, he is a very honest person, he has much humility and accept his place easily, even as a burden.

Though he tells Saber not to fight because she is a woman... She has to be protected by him, the useless weakling, because he is a guy... And Tohsaka, the headstrong and ressourceful girl, defend him saying it is just his way to say he cares !

Until then I enjoyed greatly the story, but at this very moment I felt insulted as a reader. I understand these stories are basicly fantasies for men, and that having control over women is part of that. Still I think this felt like destroying these character they build, reacting the opposite of what they actually would. And most importantly, having the main character say that, is like having the reader saying it. I am still pondering if I will continue the story nevertheless, as, except for this part, the writing is top notch.

That brought me to wonder, what are you thoughts about this guys. Have you ever experienced sexism in visual novels and how did you react to it ? Is it just overreacting on my part ? Any insights would be great to have, as my biases might prevent me to be objective on this subject.

It's literally his main character development in the Fate route to get over this and accept his role is to support saber from behind, not front.

I do think Shirou probably has something of a traditionalist hero mindset with some touches of sexism but he actually gets too much of it from the fandom. He does have a few poor remarks but he's the type of person that would go out of his way to save and help everyone he comes across (recall how he bent over and helped Shinji even when the latter mocked him), and it's his instinct to be incredibly protective. His goal in life is to become a hero of justice and live up to what he assumed his father wanted. You shouldn't assume the MC's views are supposed to be "right", there's room for character development.

But yes, what you mentioned is hardly unnoticed, and is the reason a derogatory name for it is Fate/Stay in the Kitchen.

Note that it sounds like you're in the middle of Fate (which the anime was an adaptation of) route, the first of three routes, so you're hardly half way through the game.

[Joachim]

It's literally his main character development in the Fate route to get over this and accept his role is to support saber from behind, not front.

I do think Shirou probably has something of a traditionalist hero mindset with some touches of sexism but he actually gets too much of it from the fandom. He does have a few poor remarks but he's the type of person that would go out of his way to save and help everyone he comes across (recall how he bent over and helped Shinji even when the latter mocked him), and it's his instinct to be incredibly protective. His goal in life is to become a hero of justice and live up to what he assumed his father wanted. You shouldn't assume the MC's views are supposed to be "right", there's room for character development.

You are right. It is the interesting point of his personnal developement. That is part of what makes him one of the most likeable by the book hero I've got to read, and that is why he doesn't deserve this kind of treatment of the writers. To me this whole scene has sense, but he could have complained about her being the servant, about having a plan, about trust, instead of just saying she is a woman. It felt like she didn't have the right of an explanation, a woman being enough of an excuse to discard whatever reasons there are. In an otherwise great plot, and quality writing, I just felt like the authors wanted absolutly to add that... thing. I can't understand what purpose it has.

But yes, what you mentioned is hardly unnoticed, and is the reason a derogatory name for it is Fate/Stay in the Kitchen.

Haha ! Thank you, this name is perfect . It's gonna stick in my brain now !

Note that it sounds like you're in the middle of Fate (which the anime was an adaptation of) route, the first of three routes, so you're hardly half way through the game.

This is good to hear, I'm having a blast reading it. I hope this whole scene goes off my mind soon enough. I guess there will be some unwelcome suprises though .

Edit: Thinking about it, Shirou is kind of afraid and awkward with girls from the start. It could be to help readers with this kind of behaviour in real life to impersonnate him, wich makes sense as a fantasy story. But in the other visual novels I read, even with a hint of sexism, it is never that clearly stated.

[starfighter9]

Actually i disagree about Shirou being sexist, he only ever uses this argument in Fate route. In other routes he has no problems whatsoever with women fighting, and the topic isn't brought up. My personal thoughts on this are that Shirou is merely grasping at straws, trying to rationalise why Saber shouldn't fight, because seeing

her get practically ripped apart trying to protect him triggered his 'hero' mindset, and he doesn't want her to suffer any more hurt on his behalf.

That's why Tohsaka is saying that, because it's really what he's trying to do, just Shirou showing concern in his own blockheaded way.

Also i disagree about Fate/Stay Night being a fantasy for men or having control over women, you could cut everything sexual/romantic/whatever out and it would still stand as a worthy storyline. I do tend to take a very 'detached' opinion in general though, because i never self-insert as the protagonist and i just consider myself a 3rd party observer coming along for the ride.

I suppose sexism is everywhere to a certain extent anyway, just look at how few famous otome games there are. The whole top rating page of vndb has 0 female protagonists, unless you count the F/SN prologue. That could be chalked up to the playerbase being predominantly male though. But as far as portraying any gender in an insulting way, no i don't think i have really seen that. In cheapskate sex-oriented eroge its probably rampant, but in any good story any form of racism/sexism/whateverism would ruin it.

[Joachim]

Actually i disagree about Shirou being sexist, he only ever uses this argument in Fate route. In other routes he has no problems whatsoever with women fighting, and the topic isn't brought up.

I haven't played the other routes, so I'm quite relieved to hear that.

My personal thoughts on this are that Shirou is merely grasping at straws, trying to rationalise why Saber shouldn't fight, because seeing

her get practically ripped apart trying to protect him triggered his 'hero' mindset, and he doesn't want her to suffer any more hurt on his behalf.

That's why Tohsaka is saying that, because it's really what he's trying to do, just Shirou showing concern in his own blockheaded way.

You are right, it makes sense. He can't get over that he is helpless, being such a selfless person. At the same time it is hard for him to tell her how important she has become for him. And Tohsaka is trying to solve this communication problem. It makes sense but it is still painfull to hear, but that is just a personnal feeling I guess. In my opinion the writers had other means to express this awkwardness, being shy and blunt, but without giving him this stupid lines. When I read and take his place in the story, she could just beat him to a pulp if she wanted to. She almost cut Tohsaka in half if he didn't stopped her ! It is not a girl but a monster, a killing machine, even with her thoughtful personnality. Using her gender just seemed completely silly in this situation. But it really is a matter of perception, so I guess we won't change our mind that easily .

Also i disagree about Fate/Stay Night being a fantasy for men or having control over women, you could cut everything sexual/romantic/whatever out and it would still stand as a worthy storyline. I do tend to take a very 'detached' opinion in general though, because i never self-insert as the protagonist and i just consider myself a 3rd party observer coming along for the ride.

My statement was a bit extreme, you are right. But you can't deny it is a sizable chunk of it. Would you care as much if Saber was the reincarnation of Genghis Khan or whatever ? I don't think so . There is no shame in pandering to a definite gender, if it is enjoyable and not offensive. In the case of Fate it improves the story drastically for me.

I suppose sexism is everywhere to a certain extent anyway, just look at how few famous otome games there are. The whole top rating page of vndb has 0 female protagonists, unless you count the F/SN prologue. That could be chalked up to the playerbase being predominantly male though. But as far as portraying any gender in an insulting way, no i don't think i have really seen that. In cheapskate sex-oriented eroge its probably rampant, but in any good story any form of racism/sexism/whateverism would ruin it.

I don't agree with you, but I'm glad to have read your opinion. It is easy to become oversensitive over this kind of matters. But there definetly is good stories with sexism, Fate being this example for me.

Thank you, even if I'm still not convinced, at least I don't feel as upset as I was. I might continue playing it sooner than I was planning too.

Edit: I decided to continue just to see another infuriating scene, where Mitsuzuri, a strong and independant girl, the archery club's president and friend/rival of Tohsaka is said to have been attacked by a molester. Shirou reacts by saying this is a good way to teach her feminity... Seriously ?

I just can't bring myself to continue, and it is frustrating as I want to know how the story unfolds .

[Ryoji]

I haven't played the other routes, so I'm quite relieved to hear that.

You are right, it makes sense. He can't get over that he is helpless, being such a selfless person. At the same time it is hard for him to tell her how important she has become for him. And Tohsaka is trying to solve this communication problem. It makes sense but it is still painfull to hear, but that is just a personnal feeling I guess. In my opinion the writers had other means to express this awkwardness, being shy and blunt, but without giving him this stupid lines. When I read and take his place in the story, she could just beat him to a pulp if she wanted to. She almost cut Tohsaka in half if he didn't stopped her ! It is not a girl but a monster, a killing machine, even with her thoughtful personnality. Using her gender just seemed completely silly in this situation. But it really is a matter of perception, so I guess we won't change our mind that easily .

My statement was a bit extreme, you are right. But you can't deny it is a sizable chunk of it. Would you care as much if Saber was the reincarnation of Genghis Khan or whatever ? I don't think so . There is no shame in pandering to a definite gender, if it is enjoyable and not offensive. In the case of Fate it improves the story drastically for me.

I don't agree with you, but I'm glad to have read your opinion. It is easy to become oversensitive over this kind of matters. But there definetly is good stories with sexism, Fate being this example for me.

Thank you, even if I'm still not convinced, at least I don't feel as upset as I was. I might continue playing it sooner than I was planning too.

Edit: I decided to continue just to see another infuriating scene, where Mitsuzuri, a strong and independant girl, the archery club's president and friend/rival of Tohsaka is said to have been attacked by a molester. Shirou reacts by saying this is a good way to teach her feminity... Seriously ?

I just can't bring myself to continue, and it is frustrating as I want to know how the story unfolds .

Ive noticed that in several games there seems to be a lot of rape/mind control/Tenticals ect. I never have or will I ever like that kind of stuff. Rape scenes=unenjoyable to me. I just dont get it. So I agree with you Joachim. There have been a couple games that I stopped playing due to that. Its just unnecessary bullshit as far as im concerned. I dont know how anyone can get excited by rape. Then again, I have 3 daughters and have been married over 20 years. If someone were to hurt one of them, id hunt them to the ends of the Earth.

I wish that there was a way to skip that in games so we could continue the story without having to sit through that. I can see what your saying about wanting to know the rest of the story. Maybe you can just click through scenes like that with the volume off looking away? That way you can move on through the story and get to the end?

Anyway, great post!

[Joachim]

Ive noticed that in several games there seems to be a lot of rape/mind control/Tenticals ect. I never have or will I ever like that kind of stuff. Rape scenes=unenjoyable to me. I just dont get it. So I agree with you Joachim. There have been a couple games that I stopped playing due to that. Its just unnecessary bullshit as far as im concerned. I dont know how anyone can get excited by rape. Then again, I have 3 daughters and have been married over 20 years. If someone were to hurt one of them, id hunt them to the ends of the Earth.

I wish that there was a way to skip that in games so we could continue the story without having to sit through that. I can see what your saying about wanting to know the rest of the story. Maybe you can just click through scenes like that with the volume off looking away? That way you can move on through the story and get to the end?

Anyway, great post!

Thank you, I feel relieved that I'm not overacting here ! I wish I could just forget that and go on, but it is kind of printed in my brain. When I play I feel in the role of the main character, and I can't take a role I despise that much. At the same time I am upset at the writers for writing something that mean, in a product that is planned to ship for thousands of customers. They can spread stupid ideas to people, like making them believe that it will strengthen the personnality of women to get groped or something. I have nothing against freedom of speech and I will fight to the death for the right for people to express their thoughts, but not when it can hurt someone like in this case. Silly as it may sound, I feel like reading through will be like giving up my morals, and supporting these ideas. It is sad that I end up hating it for a few lines when the whole thing is hours long of quality experience. I might be too upset and change my mind though. I am really furious actually . I need to calm down.

[Ryoji]

Thank you, I feel relieved that I'm not overacting here ! I wish I could just forget that and go on, but it is kind of printed in my brain. When I play I feel in the role of the main character, and I can't take a role I despise that much. At the same time I am upset at the writers for writing something that mean, in a product that is planned to ship for thousands of customers. They can spread stupid ideas to people, like making them believe that it will strengthen the personnality of women to get groped or something. I have nothing against freedom of speech and I will fight to the death for the right for people to express their thoughts, but not when it can hurt someone like in this case. Silly as it may sound, I feel like reading through will be like giving up my morals, and supporting these ideas. It is sad that I end up hating it for a few lines when the whole thing is hours long of quality experience. I might be too upset and change my mind though. I am really furious actually . I need to calm down.

Its not silly at all. Your morals are what define you. I can definetely understand what your saying, it pisses me off as well. I dont understand why they would write such material, but thats their choice. Just as its ours not to read said material.

Theres nothing wrong with being upset by scenes like that. In fact it should upset you because its wrong. Everyone feels differently about this im sure, but I agree with you!!

[Joachim]

Its not silly at all. Your morals are what define you. I can definetely understand what your saying, it pisses me off as well. I dont understand why they would write such material, but thats their choice. Just as its ours not to read said material.

Theres nothing wrong with being upset by scenes like that. In fact it should upset you because its wrong. Everyone feels differently about this im sure, but I agree with you!!

Thank you, I feel better reading your post. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my views. I understand why people like Fate that much, and I don't believe they are molesters or sexists . Everyone as a threshold for this kind of thing I guess.

[Saber]

Let's see here, my opinion about Fate/Stay Night is that it's not so much as the VN itself that is sexist, but it's how the character is. And of course you will see this from time to time, and not only from VN, that a male character wants to protect a girl because she is a girl despite her being able to protect herself. I don't think male dominance is a major theme in this VN, which focuses on ideals, but considering it is an eroge, which is focused towards male audience, it will be quite apparent that they would want to appeal to them.

Now, in terms of sexism in VN or even sexism in general, I personally don't care too much about it. What I mean is that I look at males as males and females as females. I never think that these lines of thinking where "men have to do this and women have to do this" make sense. I think that if you want to do something then do it, regardless of your sex. Of course there are some things that men are generally better at than women and vice versa due to many reasons, but sexism is just like any discrimination in the end.

Sorry I got a little off topic here but that's my opinion on things. Hopefully it helps somewhat in your dilemma if you still have them~

[Joachim]

Let's see here, my opinion about Fate/Stay Night is that it's not so much as the VN itself that is sexist, but it's how the character is. And of course you will see this from time to time, and not only from VN, that a male character wants to protect a girl because she is a girl despite her being able to protect herself. I don't think male dominance is a major theme in this VN, which focuses on ideals, but considering it is an eroge, which is focused towards male audience, it will be quite apparent that they would want to appeal to them.

Now, in terms of sexism in VN or even sexism in general, I personally don't care too much about it. What I mean is that I look at males as males and females as females. I never think that these lines of thinking where "men have to do this and women have to do this" make sense. I think that if you want to do something then do it, regardless of your sex. Of course there are some things that men are generally better at than women and vice versa due to many reasons, but sexism is just like any discrimination in the end.

Sorry I got a little off topic here but that's my opinion on things. Hopefully it helps somewhat in your dilemma if you still have them~

Thank you, your opinion is well appreciated !

You are right, this is not a story about gender inegality and most vns have female characters are being obedient to males, or at least expecting them to lead. It is even more upsetting in Fate because this is about few lines that really are daring to me. On one side they give great female characters, strong and ressourceful, and on the other, they say horrible things like in the screenshot I gave. I'm still puzzled.

You said exactly my thoughts, I think that people who are given the freedom to be whatever they feel like are inspiring to others. This is why it gets me upset, and for me sexism, to whatever gender it is pandering, is about the death of this freedom. This is about the death of places where people can improve each other, without fears or regrets.

When Shirou is stating that "It is impossible to teach her feminity unless something like this happens." he is stating that she needs humiliation, negation of her self, to be able to improve. Beyond sexism, it really just is cruel thinking.

[Moekou]

If anything, Fate/Stay Night is actually really feminist considering how every female character including those that were actually notorious villains get a sob story explaining that it's all the fault of men.

Medusa was actually a kind loving woman that was turned into a monster due to lustful men's advances on her sisters. To be fair, the main culprit was a goddess (forgot if it was Athena or Aphrodite) that was jealous of her beauty and set things up to destroy her.

Medea the famous babykiller and villain in FSN is implied to be a good woman who just wanted true love, and it's all Jason's fault for cheating on her!

Not to mention that the main heroine is the powerful warrior while the guy is initially useless, and

is revealed to literally serve the role of being the scabbard for Saber's sword. Take that, Freud!

That said, I see different people have different personal preferences. I actually really dislike the dreaded "generic faceless males" in VN that are made solely to be self-inserts, and prefer interesting characters even if they stand against things I believe in, such as in DeathNote. I like moving out of my comfort zone and see the story from different perspectives. You really shouldn't assume Shirou is meant to express the view of the VN's authors. As mentioned in the story and shown in Fate/Zero, the father he worships so much is revealed to be his total opposite in many ways and is the protagonist of that work, who is known for his mercilessness and would gun down innocent children if he believed it was for the greater good (this isn't a spoiler anymore since it's the premise of the anime), and despises heroes like Saber. As an author I wouldn't want to pigeon-holed into writing only from the perspective of personally likable characters.

As for rape or being raped, that's a real fetish that's just catering to the audience. Rape roleplay and BDSM are quite real and occur in real life. There are plenty of VN and hentai heavily featuring the protagonist getting raped or dominated as well, such as Monster Girl Quest and Discipline, as there is a sizable portion of otaku that are masochists. Actual rape is obviously horrible in real life, but you shouldn't hold people's sexuality against them if it's just roleplay and scenarios for arousal. This is especially the case of fiction, which lets people experience things that are exciting but wouldn't want to actually happen in real life, be it being violated or being hunted down like a criminal and being forced to go all Rambo on everybody. There are plenty of fetishes that are hard to understand or disgust me but as long as makes people happy and doesn't directly lead to real life harm, it's fine with me and is none of my business. I don't know many cases of furries actually doing anything wrong to their beloved pets

There are no rape scenes shown in F/SN though, besides plot significant events like you mentioned. After all, few people are more of a white knight than Shirou...

Of course, if you've watched Fate/Zero, then you know of the tragic fate of a certain girl, and should look forward to the last route.

[Ryoji]

If anything, Fate/Stay Night is actually really feminist considering how every female character including those that were actually notorious villains get a sob story explaining that it's all the fault of men.

Medusa was actually a kind loving woman that was turned into a monster due to lustful men's advances on her sisters. To be fair, the main culprit was a goddess (forgot if it was Athena or Aphrodite) that was jealous of her beauty and set things up to destroy her.

Medea the famous babykiller and villain in FSN is implied to be a good woman who just wanted true love, and it's all Jason's fault for cheating on her!

Not to mention that the main heroine is the powerful warrior while the guy is initially useless, and

is revealed to literally serve the role of being the scabbard for Saber's sword. Take that, Freud!

That said, I see different people have different personal preferences. I actually really dislike the dreaded "generic faceless males" in VN that are made solely to be self-inserts, and prefer interesting characters even if they stand against things I believe in, such as in DeathNote. I like moving out of my comfort zone and see the story from different perspectives. You really shouldn't assume Shirou is meant to express the view of the VN's authors. As mentioned in the story and shown in Fate/Zero, the father he worships so much is revealed to be his total opposite in many ways and is the protagonist of that work, who is known for his mercilessness and would gun down innocent children if he believed it was for the greater good (this isn't a spoiler anymore since it's the premise of the anime), and despises heroes like Saber. As an author I wouldn't want to pigeon-holed into writing only from the perspective of personally likable characters.

As for rape or being raped, that's a real fetish that's just catering to the audience. Rape roleplay and BDSM are quite real and occur in real life. There are plenty of VN and hentai heavily featuring the protagonist getting raped or dominated as well, such as Monster Girl Quest and Discipline, as there is a sizable portion of otaku that are masochists. Actual rape is obviously horrible in real life, but you shouldn't hold people's sexuality against them if it's just roleplay and scenarios for arousal. This is especially the case of fiction, which lets people experience things that are exciting but wouldn't want to actually happen in real life, be it being violated or being hunted down like a criminal and being forced to go all Rambo on everybody. There are plenty of fetishes that are hard to understand or disgust me but as long as makes people happy and doesn't directly lead to real life harm, it's fine with me and is none of my business. I don't know many cases of furries actually doing anything wrong to their beloved pets

There are no rape scenes shown in F/SN though, besides plot significant events like you mentioned. After all, few people are more of a white knight than Shirou...

Of course, if you've watched Fate/Zero, then you know of the tragic fate of a certain girl, and should look forward to the last route.

Like I said earlier,

I dont understand why they would write such material, but thats their choice. Just as its ours not to read said material.

Im a huge believer in freedom of speach. Hell I lost a leg in Iraq, served over 20 years in the Marines fighting for freedom. To each his own.

Actual rape is obviously horrible in real life, but you shouldn't hold people's sexuality against them if it's just roleplay and scenarios for arousal. This is especially the case of fiction, which lets people experience things that are exciting but wouldn't want to actually happen in real life

Ill agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I have mine. Thats fine. I wont say anything further as it would just be my opinion.

[harry_kinomoto]

This is an interesting thread. The issue has come up several times in the H-Scenes in VNs thread, but going over it again has revealed some new insights~

On F/SN and Sexism in general:

I'm gonna shamelessly quote myself from abovementioned thread:

Did you guys know that Fate/Stay Night was originally designed to have a girl protagonist (instead of Shirou) who summoned King Arthur (and not girl-dressed-as-guy-Arturia) as a servant (Google Fate/Prototype if you don’t believe me)?? I’m really suspicious of that decision, personally... to me it just suggests that the producers knew their audience would welcome the current moe-moe character types more than they would their original designs.

Let’s consider the anime industry. In the not-too-distant past, producers released K-On: the first anime to concentrate almost exclusively on moe-heavy characterisation. K-On proved a massive hit. Result? Moe-clones EVERYWHERE. The situation is similar to sex scenes in VNs, I think: the history of the genre is inseparable from slavish datesims and disgustingly obnoxious hentai. As such, producers think that every time they make a VN, sex scenes MUST be included! Key is of course a notable exception, but even then releasing Clannad without sexual content was seen as such a maverick move. And even though I honestly thought it was a sign of things moving forward, they had to release a sequel with H (Tomoyo After) almost STRAIGHT after. Even Little Busters followed the same pattern if not worse - with an extension featuring H-scenes for ALL characters (and not forgetting that blasted Kud Wafter...). Furthermore, they continue to be the ONLY mainstream studio that releases PC-based (the original format for most) VNs that have no sexual content.

tl;dr: I think VN companies that see the inclusion of sex scenes as a mere obligation are more numerous than you think. I say that because of the extraordinary number (at least imo) of sex scenes that are BADLY placed and/or BADLY done. And though I am totally with you on the idea of free speech and freedom of expression, when one learns that people are modifying their own ideas so much just so that they can please others even when the fact that the intellectual climate doesn’t necessitate such actions, the value of that human right is cheapened very heavily indeed.

These points were made as an argument against sex scenes being included in VNs, but I feel the sexism issue is similar. I think any negative stereotypes of females that the current VN scene has are so deeply ingrained that trying to do a VN without them would be seen as a massive risk - which, imo, is a crying shame!

On the idea that VNs are a male fantasy:

As I said earlier, VNs have their roots in datesims. There will thus probably be some who argue that VNs are, from this perspective, fundamentally datesims, and that any story they have attached to them there for the sole purpose of ensuring you feel maximum attraction for the intended romantic partner. Certainly, I think VNs have this reputation in mainstream Japan, fuelled not least by news stories of otaku marrying their DSes or becoming herbivore men. That being said, a great many modern VNs seem to use the idea of the 3D man going for the 2D girl as a humorous trope - and more often than not in a satirical manner, almost as if to warn the player against such behaviour. Indeed, a 2D character warning a 3D player about coming to the 2D world by pretending to be a 3D character in what's really a 2D world! How's that for irony!? Jokes aside, regardless of whether or not VNs are to blame for Japan's ills, I think it's commendable self-awareness from the industry, and highly approve of this precedent.

On Sexism in VNs as a whole

There is no denying that differences in males and females exist. Acknowledging these differences, and then working towards a resolution or even synergism of them, would benefit us all. "Sexism", however, is when these differences are misinterpreted to give rise to assumptions about the offended gender that are untrue and unhelpful. There is a difference between these two categories, and it's important to realise where to draw the line. I present two examples to illustrate my point.

Let's first consider Da Capo I's Kotori Shirakawa. Kotori was a popular school idol and talented singer, who happened to develop romantic feelings for male protag Junichi after he helps her sort out some of her issues. This culminated in a confession, which Junichi turned down firmly but tactfully. Despite the rejection, Kotori felt liberated. However, just as it looks like she's about to start living a real life free of her issues, she inexplicabliy is head-over-heels for Junichi again in Da Capo SS. I could not help but feel how this decision felt sexist, because it seems to imply how girls need a guy to function, no matter how "strong" or "resourceful" they might otherwise be! A similar case might perhaps be made with Moekou's ideas of

Medea - so a good woman's sanity is supposed to break when her husband cheats on her?? Riiight....

My next example involves Clannad. It is a story of how delinquent male Tomoya helps the timid Nagisa overcome her fears and find her the courage to work towards her dreams (as those who've watched/played it will know).

Now consider how different would the story have been if Nagisa's character was redesigned as a boy. How different might your reaction towards the show have been? What about that of others? Would it have impacted its popularity? Would the story have remained believable with this change, even if it was the only one made?

The exercise is likely to draw unique, personal responses from everyone. You'll probably realise more clearly the difference between real and implied differences between genders, and appreciate precisely how fuzzy this line can get sometimes. You can even repeat it on any anime or VN you wish, and each time get a different answer. As usual I don't expect replies to this, but would love to see any that people would be willing to post nonetheless~

Oh and PS:

For Ryoji on how to skip H-Scenes:

Holding down the Ctrl key should help speed through the text in those scenes too. I do it alot myself!

[Bolverk]

For Ryoji on how to skip H-Scenes:

Holding down the Ctrl key should help speed through the text in those scenes too. I do it alot myself!

Yup, that will save you from alot of frustration, the left side ctrl is universal for most if not all vn's as skip text. I do it alot in the H-Scenes.

On the subject on sexism, there is very often the most natural thing in the world that the protagonist should protect the girls as they are helpless themself.

That seems to be abit intigrated into the japanese society. The man is the dominant person, strict traditions are still eminent in japan. About this being wrong or not I would say wrong. But I am from the west, of course I would say that. It being right or not is another thing..

I saw a documentary about sexuality in japan some time ago, about how it is different from the west etc. Much more free, you guys should know what I mean. One thing in it puzzled me, there was a interview of a westerner who was a turist the for a few months. He could talk japanese and such. He experienced when he had sex with natives, that they would be submissve and say like stop, not there etc. But the meant the opposite, they wanted him to dominate them.

I would take that docomentry with a grain of salt, but it did make sense imo.

[Ryoji]

My next example involves Clannad. It is a story of how delinquent male Tomoya helps the timid Nagisa overcome her fears and find her the courage to work towards her dreams (as those who've watched/played it will know).

Now consider how different would the story have been if Nagisa's character was redesigned as a boy. How different might your reaction towards the show have been? What about that of others? Would it have impacted its popularity? Would the story have remained believable with this change, even if it was the only one made?

The exercise is likely to draw unique, personal responses from everyone. You'll probably realise more clearly the difference between real and implied differences between genders, and appreciate precisely how fuzzy this line can get sometimes. You can even repeat it on any anime or VN you wish, and each time get a different answer. As usual I don't expect replies to this, but would love to see any that people would be willing to post nonetheless~

Oh and PS:

For Ryoji on how to skip H-Scenes:

Holding down the Ctrl key should help speed through the text in those scenes too. I do it alot myself!

Wow interesting. Nagisa as a man. That would definetely make it different. Being a Former Marine, weak is just something that I cannot relate with on that level. Ive edited this a few times to be honest. Rewritten this a few times. Just not sure if I would of loved Clannad as much as I do with the plot like that. You have defietely made me think, so I would say thanks man. Look at my signiture, I just cant imaging Nagisa as a male.

Oh and by the way, thanks Harry, that CTRL trick will defienetly come in handy.

[Joachim]

If anything, Fate/Stay Night is actually really feminist considering how every female character including those that were actually notorious villains get a sob story explaining that it's all the fault of men.

Medusa was actually a kind loving woman that was turned into a monster due to lustful men's advances on her sisters. To be fair, the main culprit was a goddess (forgot if it was Athena or Aphrodite) that was jealous of her beauty and set things up to destroy her.

Medea the famous babykiller and villain in FSN is implied to be a good woman who just wanted true love, and it's all Jason's fault for cheating on her!

Not to mention that the main heroine is the powerful warrior while the guy is initially useless, and

is revealed to literally serve the role of being the scabbard for Saber's sword. Take that, Freud!

There is a huge amount of strong female characters in Fate. So it is true, the story isn't sexist at all, maybe the contrary. But these few lines are incredibly unrespectful, and offensive. Ryoji and I might be more sensible to that kind of stuff, but you can't deny it's presence, and it's intensity. This example might be extreme, but what Shirou said in the screenshot is like saying slavery made black people civilized. It might be on a different level of cruelty but it is the same provocative and ill spirited will behind.

That said, I see different people have different personal preferences. I actually really dislike the dreaded "generic faceless males" in VN that are made solely to be self-inserts, and prefer interesting characters even if they stand against things I believe in, such as in DeathNote. I like moving out of my comfort zone and see the story from different perspectives. You really shouldn't assume Shirou is meant to express the view of the VN's authors. As mentioned in the story and shown in Fate/Zero, the father he worships so much is revealed to be his total opposite in many ways and is the protagonist of that work, who is known for his mercilessness and would gun down innocent children if he believed it was for the greater good (this isn't a spoiler anymore since it's the premise of the anime), and despises heroes like Saber. As an author I wouldn't want to pigeon-holed into writing only from the perspective of personally likable characters.

A debate about what kind of protagonist are the most likeable would be interesting. This can be quite long, as to me there is more to it than the blank slate and the well fleshed main character. It really depends on the kind of story told. To me Shirou was one of the most likeable vn protagonist at the beginning because he was so honest, and his humility was like fresh air.

As for the premise of the anime, it totally is spoiler to me, but nevermind, I don't intend to finish the game . I really thing this is a good material for a discussion on characters in visual novels. As a brief example of a character morally wrong that I liked, is the hero of Saya no Uta. If half the vn wasn't about how is daily life was dreadful, it would have been the one I despised the most . It is kind of fun, but context is half the story !

As for rape or being raped, that's a real fetish that's just catering to the audience. Rape roleplay and BDSM are quite real and occur in real life. There are plenty of VN and hentai heavily featuring the protagonist getting raped or dominated as well, such as Monster Girl Quest and Discipline, as there is a sizable portion of otaku that are masochists. Actual rape is obviously horrible in real life, but you shouldn't hold people's sexuality against them if it's just roleplay and scenarios for arousal. This is especially the case of fiction, which lets people experience things that are exciting but wouldn't want to actually happen in real life, be it being violated or being hunted down like a criminal and being forced to go all Rambo on everybody. There are plenty of fetishes that are hard to understand or disgust me but as long as makes people happy and doesn't directly lead to real life harm, it's fine with me and is none of my business. I don't know many cases of furries actually doing anything wrong to their beloved pets

You are partially right in my opinion. It is a pleasure for some, and is entirely fictitious, and I am happy they can get content ! But it is cleary cattered to this crowd, compared to Fate wich is an all age story. There is also a big difference between showing and telling. Between a girl being raped, and someone telling that being sexually harassed is beneficial for girls is a whole world of difference. It might be strange but I prefer the former, because it is a depiction and not a judgement. Some might find it arousing, I will find it sad, but at least everyone has his opinion. This is a lot similar to discusion about violence in video games, and their influence on the players. Of course most people know killing is bad, like most people know sexual harrassement is bad. But games, and entertainement in general, are building your world view without you noticing. If you never had a girlfriend, you will assume that the depiction of sex and relationships in vns are true, or at least you will be inspired by them because of lack of better referencial. Maybe people who already were on the fence to become molesters will feel supported. You can't assume how people will react, so it is pointless to prohibit such content. It should be a matter of conscience to the creators though.

This is an interesting thread. The issue has come up several times in the H-Scenes in VNs thread, but going over it again has revealed some new insights~

On F/SN and Sexism in general:

I'm gonna shamelessly quote myself from abovementioned thread:These points were made as an argument against sex scenes being included in VNs, but I feel the sexism issue is similar. I think any negative stereotypes of females that the current VN scene has are so deeply ingrained that trying to do a VN without them would be seen as a massive risk - which, imo, is a crying shame!

This is really interesting. It makes sense now, that I found these lines out of place. They might have added them to please the audience. And it seems to have worked as intended, and that makes me even more sad. I have seen artworks of Saber after the original, and she was wearing dresses. So basicly this is all just fanservice !

I am dissapointed that she is the female version of Arthur though, I had hoped she was Joan of Arc ! Arthuria is plain silly .

On the idea that VNs are a male fantasy:

As I said earlier, VNs have their roots in datesims. There will thus probably be some who argue that VNs are, from this perspective, fundamentally datesims, and that any story they have attached to them there for the sole purpose of ensuring you feel maximum attraction for the intended romantic partner. Certainly, I think VNs have this reputation in mainstream Japan, fuelled not least by news stories of otaku marrying their DSes or becoming herbivore men. That being said, a great many modern VNs seem to use the idea of the 3D man going for the 2D girl as a humorous trope - and more often than not in a satirical manner, almost as if to warn the player against such behaviour. Indeed, a 2D character warning a 3D player about coming to the 2D world by pretending to be a 3D character in what's really a 2D world! How's that for irony!? Jokes aside, regardless of whether or not VNs are to blame for Japan's ills, I think it's commendable self-awareness from the industry, and highly approve of this precedent.

Honestly it is understandable, real life girls have to compete with gorgeous, lusty and devoted girls with ridiculously perfect moe personnalities. This is the biggest problem with fantasy, as life feels kind of dull beneath it. It is frightening to believe they can influence the stories, maybe have the female characters become more serviceable and less lifelike. This will be the day I won't read vns anymore I guess.

On Sexism in VNs as a whole

There is no denying that differences in males and females exist. Acknowledging these differences, and then working towards a resolution or even synergism of them, would benefit us all. "Sexism", however, is when these differences are misinterpreted to give rise to assumptions about the offended gender that are untrue and unhelpful. There is a difference between these two categories, and it's important to realise where to draw the line. I present two examples to illustrate my point.

Let's first consider Da Capo I's Kotori Shirakawa. Kotori was a popular school idol and talented singer, who happened to develop romantic feelings for male protag Junichi after he helps her sort out some of her issues. This culminated in a confession, which Junichi turned down firmly but tactfully. Despite the rejection, Kotori felt liberated. However, just as it looks like she's about to start living a real life free of her issues, she inexplicabliy is head-over-heels for Junichi again in Da Capo SS. I could not help but feel how this decision felt sexist, because it seems to imply how girls need a guy to function, no matter how "strong" or "resourceful" they might otherwise be! A similar case might perhaps be made with Moekou's ideas of

Medea - so a good woman's sanity is supposed to break when her husband cheats on her?? Riiight....

This is exactly the same feeling I got from Fate. They build these characters and emotions and choices, to utterly destroy them after with hogwash, exactly like you said. It is absolutly not logical, it serves no other purpose than to accentuate this feeling of power from the reader over these strong characters. Instead of feeling glad to have taken the hard choice, to enhance the life of someone you feel affection for, the author slap you in the face in showing you these are only puppets in their story, wich they can make them do whatever they want them to do. It might be kind of silly to talk like that about fictitious characters, but as I read and even after I'm done reading I feel attached to them, and I am rewarded in my own emotional life for it. That is why it feels like the writers are pissing on my treat, so to speak. Why would Shirou ever be so cruel to say such words ? He is such a selfless person, always caring for other, he would never feel schadenfreude. I got carried away, sorry .

My next example involves Clannad. It is a story of how delinquent male Tomoya helps the timid Nagisa overcome her fears and find her the courage to work towards her dreams (as those who've watched/played it will know).

Now consider how different would the story have been if Nagisa's character was redesigned as a boy. How different might your reaction towards the show have been? What about that of others? Would it have impacted its popularity? Would the story have remained believable with this change, even if it was the only one made?

The exercise is likely to draw unique, personal responses from everyone. You'll probably realise more clearly the difference between real and implied differences between genders, and appreciate precisely how fuzzy this line can get sometimes. You can even repeat it on any anime or VN you wish, and each time get a different answer. As usual I don't expect replies to this, but would love to see any that people would be willing to post nonetheless~

Oh and PS:

For Ryoji on how to skip H-Scenes:

Holding down the Ctrl key should help speed through the text in those scenes too. I do it alot myself!

It would be nice to have a vn where you couldn't be sure about the sex of the characters, like transvestite and tom boys. Having all these gender clichés getting upside down would be really interesting. Does anyone know if such vns exist ?

Yup, that will save you from alot of frustration, the left side ctrl is universal for most if not all vn's as skip text. I do it alot in the H-Scenes.

On the subject on sexism, there is very often the most natural thing in the world that the protagonist should protect the girls as they are helpless themself.

That seems to be abit intigrated into the japanese society. The man is the dominant person, strict traditions are still eminent in japan. About this being wrong or not I would say wrong. But I am from the west, of course I would say that. It being right or not is another thing..

This might be an important point that could explain it. It is present in almost every country, but in the west people seem to be less reluctant to accept it. Japanese seem to be much less self centered as well, the group as much more impact on their personnal choices than it has on us in the west. It is odd because they have a popular culture much more free than us on violence and sex.

I saw a documentary about sexuality in japan some time ago, about how it is different from the west etc. Much more free, you guys should know what I mean. One thing in it puzzled me, there was a interview of a westerner who was a turist the for a few months. He could talk japanese and such. He experienced when he had sex with natives, that they would be submissve and say like stop, not there etc. But the meant the opposite, they wanted him to dominate them.

I would take that docomentry with a grain of salt, but it did make sense imo.

I hope he is wrong, it is sad to believe that. Sure everyone his taste when it comes to partners, but having a living doll certainly isn't mine. We are talking about a country with at least twice the number of inhabitants as mine so I guess it is hard to generalize on that size ! I'm always on the look out for any features about the social side of japan, sadly it is hard to get. I had found a similar documentary about the sex industry in japan, it is on youtube but sadly in french. As a summary people find it too bothersome to live a normal sex life and please their partner. They go to hostess bars wich give them the illusion to flirt and be active, or they watch porn in cabins with kind of high tech sex toys. In the end they said it wasn't uncommon for a couple to have no relations for months at a time, and find it totally normal. If anyone has features, books, articles, films or documentary to share about gender policies in japan, I would be glad to get them .

[Bolverk]

If anyone has features, books, articles, films or documentary to share about gender policies in japan, I would be glad to get them .

There was a few short documentaries about japan which I found interesting. Here: http://torrentz.eu/a88ed55e1c9eea29be37d21c1147621cb34614b1 I think this one was that had about sex in japan. There is alot other stuff too, so you should ctrl+A mark the files the torrent want to download and "dont download" select everything. Then just select the ones about japan and download the ones you want. Friggin 137 GB lol. Would take months otherwise.

[Joachim]

There was a few short documentaries about japan which I found interesting. Here: http://torrentz.eu/a88ed55e1c9eea29be37d21c1147621cb34614b1 I think this one was that had about sex in japan. There is alot other stuff too, so you should ctrl+A mark the files the torrent want to download and "dont download" select everything. Then just select the ones about japan and download the ones you want. Friggin 137 GB lol. Would take months otherwise.

Nice, thank you !

So much content, this is insane !

[Moekou]

Why would Shirou ever be so cruel to say such words ? He is such a selfless person, always caring for other, he would never feel schadenfreude. I got carried away, sorry .

I don't know why this part is surprising. It was pretty much the mindset of "gentlemen" to protect ladies and put them in their place when things got out of line. This is found in many classic literature like The Taming of the Shrew by Shakespeare, which is literally about taming a strong female character until she became a docile wife. They genuinely don't think of it as wrong and actually believe they are doing them a favor. It's similar to how some sympathetic characters that are actually supposed to be most friendly to slaves in old books still come across as incredibly racist by modern standards, even though they genuinely mean well. In fact, I believe it is one of the main reasons why things like slavery lasted so long-because people who engaged in it genuinely believed that they were still being perfectly good people and there was nothing wrong with the behavior. Society has been VERY sexist for a long time, be it the east or west. Even in the 50s, even educated girls in college were expected to focus on becoming housewives, and were even encouraged classes about proper lady manners for that reason. But again, part of Shirou's character development is getting over this as he truly comes to understand and respect Saber not just as a girl but as a magnificent yet tragic king, so it really doesn't express the view of the author.

Personally, I grew up admiring the way of the knight and chivalry until I realized that there's a lot of sexism involved which was pretty offputting. Even some sayings common today such as "ladies first!" bug me because of that, because like with Shirou, even though they usually mean well, it's still rather sexist.

By the way, have you watched the video for Fate/Prototype showing Saber as man as originally envisioned?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP9pQ9J2a8o

Be warned that it does have minor spoilers for the actual game though.

Also, while Saber was always intended to be Arthur (and it's important since despite the genderswap it is still one of the more faithful takes in vn/anime that explores the tragedy of his kingship, so they couldn't just change the identity due to the gender flip), they did acknowledge that many believed she was Jeanne, and actually created her character and referenced her in Fate/Zero where Gilles de Rais who is insane mistakes Saber for Jeanne and relentlessly pursues her.

Here's what Jeanne looks like:

[torbin12]

As there are alot of replies, that I didnt read fully :S im sorry, I am sure this point has been brought up, this....personality trait? is not unique to fate/stay, not in the least, in fact, the large majority of protagonists in nearly all cinema, whether anime or live-action, have that mindset, and most protagonists in the large myriad of games have this mindset. It is in fact, a common mindset in actual people, and while it may SEEM sexist, it is more in-grained behavior than anything else. That's just the way the world was, and for the most part, still is, for thousands of years, men protected women. It has alot to do with the males mindset of wanting to be the provider, to give to his special someone, even to give protection. Men have a great deal of pride, and part of that pride comes from our desire to be the best, because we think that if we are not the best, then why would we deserve to have what we have, this great person, so we believe we have to be able to do everything, even to protect, when it is clear that our special someone is far more capable than we could hope to be.

[Ryoji]

lol I guess Fate/stay night just moved to the top of "to be played" list.

After reading what everybody wrote here i feel compelled lol.

[torbin12]

lol I guess Fate/stay night just moved to the top of "to be played" list.

After reading what everybody wrote here i feel compelled lol.

*Tsundere-mode, activate* N...n..no, I was...planning to play it anyway, right after I finished my current one, it couldn't be helped that I happened to answer in this thread right before I started playing it! *Tsundere-mode, finish*

[Ryoji]

*Tsundere-mode, activate* N...n..no, I was...planning to play it anyway, right after I finished my current one, it couldn't be helped that I happened to answer in this thread right before I started playing it! *Tsundere-mode, finish*

hahaha, that made me cough beer all over my monitor.

[Joachim]

I don't know why this part is surprising. It was pretty much the mindset of "gentlemen" to protect ladies and put them in their place when things got out of line. This is found in many classic literature like The Taming of the Shrew by Shakespeare, which is literally about taming a strong female character until she became a docile wife. They genuinely don't think of it as wrong and actually believe they are doing them a favor. It's similar to how some sympathetic characters that are actually supposed to be most friendly to slaves in old books still come across as incredibly racist by modern standards, even though they genuinely mean well. In fact, I believe it is one of the main reasons why things like slavery lasted so long-because people who engaged in it genuinely believed that they were still being perfectly good people and there was nothing wrong with the behavior. Society has been VERY sexist for a long time, be it the east or west. Even in the 50s, even educated girls in college were expected to focus on becoming housewives, and were even encouraged classes about proper lady manners for that reason. But again, part of Shirou's character development is getting over this as he truly comes to understand and respect Saber not just as a girl but as a magnificent yet tragic king, so it really doesn't express the view of the author.

Thank you, you convinced me to give it another try, it was painful at first, but now I begin to enjoy the story again. I shifted my perspective, and now follow the story of Shirou as an observer. I'm glad because the story is really worth the efforts.

At the times you described, people believed in what the influent and seemingly most intelligent and wise people said. But at our time, where every one has access to the web, their is no excuse for people to be ignorant. And there is not excuse as well for artists to continue spreading outdated concepts and ideas. They should provide not only quality, but respect to their readers. Now that I have a better perspective of Shirou as a hero, I understand the story is trying it's hardest to show him how wrong he is. And maybe at the same time the potential reader with the same mindset as Shirou. I might be making a storm in a teacup here, but I really felt personnaly insulted as I was reading these scenes.

Personally, I grew up admiring the way of the knight and chivalry until I realized that there's a lot of sexism involved which was pretty offputting. Even some sayings common today such as "ladies first!" bug me because of that, because like with Shirou, even though they usually mean well, it's still rather sexist.

By the way, have you watched the video for Fate/Prototype showing Saber as man as originally envisioned?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP9pQ9J2a8o

Be warned that it does have minor spoilers for the actual game though.

Also, while Saber was always intended to be Arthur (and it's important since despite the genderswap it is still one of the more faithful takes in vn/anime that explores the tragedy of his kingship, so they couldn't just change the identity due to the gender flip), they did acknowledge that many believed she was Jeanne, and actually created her character and referenced her in Fate/Zero where Gilles de Rais who is insane mistakes Saber for Jeanne and relentlessly pursues her.

Here's what Jeanne looks like:

Cool !

I have to look that out after I finished the first one ! If they made Gilles de Rais as creepy as he was suppose to be, I'm really looking forward to it. You gave me my enthusiasm back, thank you !

As there are alot of replies, that I didnt read fully :S im sorry, I am sure this point has been brought up, this....personality trait? is not unique to fate/stay, not in the least, in fact, the large majority of protagonists in nearly all cinema, whether anime or live-action, have that mindset, and most protagonists in the large myriad of games have this mindset. It is in fact, a common mindset in actual people, and while it may SEEM sexist, it is more in-grained behavior than anything else. That's just the way the world was, and for the most part, still is, for thousands of years, men protected women. It has alot to do with the males mindset of wanting to be the provider, to give to his special someone, even to give protection. Men have a great deal of pride, and part of that pride comes from our desire to be the best, because we think that if we are not the best, then why would we deserve to have what we have, this great person, so we believe we have to be able to do everything, even to protect, when it is clear that our special someone is far more capable than we could hope to be.

It is indeed the case even in our western societies. Heck, for the first time in France do we have as many female ministers as males. I believe they voted laws to force people to get women in high positions because it is still male dominated.

If women would show how capable they are, there won't be any natural pride of being a man anymore. It is convenient to deny them liberty for the sake of security. It is emotional shakedown no more no less. Women have to bleed every month, and bear our children, they might not be as powerful, but their body sure is stronger than ours.

lol I guess Fate/stay night just moved to the top of "to be played" list.

After reading what everybody wrote here i feel compelled lol.

I recommend it even though I made a big fuss about it. Type Moon writing is at the top in my relative small knowledge of vns. Just be prepared to facepalm yourself to death with hero goodie two shoes and his gender views back from the stone age .