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When the good ending isn't the longest/last ending


thelemmallama

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So I've been writing a VN, but there are a few bad endings that take place chronologically later than the good ending.

Like, you hit the scene where the good ending is supposed to take place, but if you don't have the right flags, the game continues and proceeds to a bad ending appropriate for your flags.

Any other visual novels that have done this? Is that even a good idea? XD

___

Specifically I'm worried about the 'good ending being shorter than some of the bad endings' part rather than the flag part. Because all of the VNs I know about seem to have the best ending be the 'final' ending (like Steins;Gate), and when the game ends 'prematurely', it's always a bad ending (or at the very least a 'lesser' good ending that's still not the 'true' ending). Whereas my 'good ending' kind of 'cuts the game short' in the same way the bad endings in Steins;Gate 'cuts the game short' on the way to the good ending.

Like, if someone hits one of my 'long' bad endings first, then goes back and gets my good ending, would they kind of get a sense of "... that's it? That's all there is to the good ending? Feels kind of anticlimactic."? I don't think the good ending scene itself is written in a way that's anticlimactic on its own and if someone gets it first (or after my 'shorter' bad endings), I'm confident it would be satisfying and cathartic, but I'm wondering if the comparative length to my other bad endings would weaken that sense of resolution XD

Edited by TheLemmaLlama
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It's not an unusual concept.  To be blunt, Sunao's ending in Semiramis no Tenbin is basically a bad ending that happens if you miss the flag for Ami's ending.  As for bad endings that are longer than the good endings... less common but also something that happens regularly in utsuge in particular.  Sora no Baroque comes to mind, for instance.

However, you have to ask yourself... do you really want a bad ending to be the one thing people remember when it is all over?  Because the longest and most detailed endings are the ones people remember the most.  In good VNs, the true ending generally is never shorter than the other endings and is often longer many times over for this precise reason.  It is also why - if a heroine exists for the true ending - picking a poor quality heroine for the true ending usually damns the game to the kusoge pile.

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Thanks for the examples! I didn't know utsuges can have good endings (my VN repertoire isn't the largest lmao :P)

20 hours ago, Clephas said:

However, you have to ask yourself... do you really want a bad ending to be the one thing people remember when it is all over?

Hmmm ... I don't think I'd be too mad about that, maybe. I don't want the VN to feel *hopeless* but it is supposed to be pretty sad. Maybe a bad ending that leaves approximately the impact of Undertale's genocide route is what I'm looking for.

I guess I'm thinking of having my endings that way because with the way events naturally progress, I feel like the point where my good ending happens is the best place for it to happen because the momentum has been built up and everything, and I don't think I want to drag it out artificially. At the very least, leaving a happy last impression is probably not worth sacrificing this ...

Follow-up question: if a VN has an unambiguously happy, cathartic good ending that at least stands out in that it's the only ending with a unique credits sequence, but also a couple of bad endings (all with the same credits sequence), one of which is the 'missed flag' type and another is noticeably longer gameplay-wise than the good ending, would you say it's a nakige or utsuge?

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5 hours ago, TheLemmaLlama said:

Thanks for the examples! I didn't know utsuges can have good endings (my VN repertoire isn't the largest lmao :P)

Hmmm ... I don't think I'd be too mad about that, maybe. I don't want the VN to feel *hopeless* but it is supposed to be pretty sad. Maybe a bad ending that leaves approximately the impact of Undertale's genocide route is what I'm looking for.

I guess I'm thinking of having my endings that way because with the way events naturally progress, I feel like the point where my good ending happens is the best place for it to happen because the momentum has been built up and everything, and I don't think I want to drag it out artificially. At the very least, leaving a happy last impression is probably not worth sacrificing this ...

Follow-up question: if a VN has an unambiguously happy, cathartic good ending that at least stands out in that it's the only ending with a unique credits sequence, but also a couple of bad endings (all with the same credits sequence), one of which is the 'missed flag' type and another is noticeably longer gameplay-wise than the good ending, would you say it's a nakige or utsuge?

It's better if I give an example here.  The example I'm offering up is Houkago no Futekikakusha.  Houkago no Futekikakusha is undeniably an incredibly brutal utsuge... but the true ending can be considered a 'good' ending... if you ignore the fact that in all the alternative timelines, those horrible events still happened.  The main difference between a nakige and an utsuge is that nakige always result in a 'good' ending, even if it is a bit bittersweet, whereas an utsuge's endings will mostly be sad or despairing endings (a single ending can be an exception, but anything more than that and it isn't quite an utsuge).  

That should answer most of your questions, but I'll go ahead and put up another example... in this case, a chuunige.  Chuunige generally have bittersweet endings, with truly happy endings being relatively rare.  The one I want to mention is Silverio Trinity (second in the series).  Spoilers below:

Spoiler

In Silverio Trinity, the protagonist dies in all but one of the endings due to the side-effects of the human experimentation he went through before the story began. 

Because of this, it fits your condition of a single ending being 'good' while all the others are bitter or sad.  This particular tactic, which is usually used to enhance the emotional response of the reader to the final 'good' ending, can have great results or horrible ones depending on how that last ending is handled.  To be blunt, I've read VNs where a writer took this tactic and ran it into the ground because he couldn't write a sufficiently standout good path to contrast with the bad ones.  The most effective tactic in this case is to path-lock so that one can only reach the good ending by experiencing all or at least one of the bad endings, then making the good ending highly detailed and emotionally impactful (made even moreso by the experience of the other paths).  

 

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Hm, so it seems like most VNs still have the 'good' ending as the 'last' ending at least?

After thinking about it a bit, I think the feeling I'm going for is 'the bad endings are *conclusive* and therefore more dramatic in the sense of "something has been DESTROYED and there is no recovering from this"'. Whereas with the good ending, a major 'block' is overcome and that's what makes it cathartic, but the change basically happens within the characters and there isn't any particularly dramatic external consequences; it's basically just 'life goes on' but now they're no longer stuck in the loop they were in for the majority of the story and can move forward and work on their other issues at their own pace. So I do think I want it to be more of a lowkey sense of relief; just a breath of fresh air , like if you've been lost in a tunnel it's less 'you BLOW UP the cave walls and emerge into the dazzling light of day' and more 'oh, I found the exit ... thank goodness ...!' - I think I like the sense of realism it brings 😄

If you know of any examples that might've been aiming for that (whether executed well or poorly), I'd love to check them out - but regardless you've been a big help and given me a bit to consider; I guess it's ultimately up to me to decide if it's work risking the pitfalls you specified by attempting to do what I currently have in mind XD

Edited by TheLemmaLlama
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4 hours ago, TheLemmaLlama said:

Hm, so it seems like most VNs still have the 'good' ending as the 'last' ending at least?

After thinking about it a bit, I think the feeling I'm going for is 'the bad endings are *conclusive* and therefore more dramatic in the sense of "something has been DESTROYED and there is no recovering from this"'. Whereas with the good ending, a major 'block' is overcome and that's what makes it cathartic, but the change basically happens within the characters and there isn't any particularly dramatic external consequences; it's basically just 'life goes on' but now they're no longer stuck in the loop they were in for the majority of the story and can move forward and work on their other issues at their own pace. So I do think I want it to be more of a lowkey sense of relief; just a breath of fresh air , like if you've been lost in a tunnel it's less 'you BLOW UP the cave walls and emerge into the dazzling light of day' and more 'oh, I found the exit ... thank goodness ...!' - I think I like the sense of realism it brings 😄

If you know of any examples that might've been aiming for that (whether executed well or poorly), I'd love to check them out - but regardless you've been a big help and given me a bit to consider; I guess it's ultimately up to me to decide if it's work risking the pitfalls you specified by attempting to do what I currently have in mind XD

The key to making a truly good 'bad' ending is including a level of conclusiveness to it in the greater context of events.  Bad endings which are basically random are generally useless (make one bad choice and all of the sudden the MC dies, for instance).  However, if you include at least some progression after the choice or set of choices that creates the route to the bad ending, you can bring it to life in and of itself.  Essentially that is what utsuge do.  The best of them create a conclusive narrative that makes sense within the greater narrative as is defined by the 'true' ending. 

A lot of writers - particularly the ones that use the ladder-style choice structure - botch things here by creating a true route that invalidates all other endings due to setting elements included.  Aiyoku no Eustia  is a classic example of a botched attempt at a true ending, as the true ending completely invalidates the story of the other endings.  

This isn't much of an issue if you read slowly (those who read a single VN over the course of months or a year), but for someone who finishes an average-sized VN within a week or a month, it is a glaring flaw.  Even small inconsistencies and setting clashes standout in that case, and it is glaringly obvious in the case of VNs with true endings or grand routes.  

In Akeiro Kaikitan, while there is a true ending, no single ending is neglected.  All of them are somewhat bittersweet and some are downright bad (Youko's ending comes to mind, as it is the result of literally everything going wrong).  My favorite path in the game, the path for the tochigami twins, is a classic example of how a bittersweet ending can leave an intense impression that overshadows the true ending.  As cathartic endings go, it is pretty close to the ideal.

Another game that can be considered mostly extended bad endings is Jingai Makyou (by Nitroplus).  Even the single 'happiest' ending in the game is an ending where the protagonist casts aside his humanity, for instance.  Even then, it is a matter of interpretation, as some would find the alternate endings for the same path to be 'better' depending on their outlook, even if it cost the characters deeply in the process.  

Yet another approach I experienced in the past is the one used in Ore no Tsure wa Hitodenashi.  In this one, the endings are separated into 'blue' and 'Happy' endings.  The happy endings are just that, straight-out happy endings.  However, the blue endings are endings where the inhuman heroines follow their darker desires and things go in a completely different direction.  This utilizes the drastic contrast to enhance the experience both ways.  It also built up the characterizations in a way that was surprisingly effective.

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