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Shit Translators—You're trashing my favourite stories!


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The line of reasoning that I hear a lot:

"You're trashing my favourite stories with your shit translations!"

There's bits of IP (intellectual property) mentality mixed into their reasoning so I want to clarify it first:

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. So these things are not like physical objects. The original isn't destroyed even when someone creates a derivative of the original. What you mean to say is that you fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response:

So when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original.

It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an un-endorsed fan translated rewrite of the original. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's brilliance. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy! just the english fluency)

What do you think?

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The line of reasoning that I hear a lot: You're trashing my favourite stories with your shit translations!

There's bits of IP (intellectual property) mentality mixed into their reasoning so I want to clarify it first:

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. So these things are not like physical objects. The original isn't destroyed even when someone creates a derivative of the original. What you mean to say is that you fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response:

So when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original.

It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an un-endorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's brilliance. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy! just the english fluency)

What do you think?

Just being able to see ratings would give credence to the translations. I think that's a great idea!! With each positive rating, Un-endorsed becomes more and more endorsed. that makes this idea, win-win!!

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The line of reasoning that I hear a lot: You're trashing my favourite stories with your shit translations!

There's bits of IP (intellectual property) mentality mixed into their reasoning so I want to clarify it first:

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. So these things are not like physical objects. The original isn't destroyed even when someone creates a derivative of the original. What you mean to say is that you fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response:

So when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original.

It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an un-endorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's brilliance. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy! just the english fluency)

What do you think?

As someone that doesn't understand japanese, I'm glad to have whatever translation I can.

It is impossible to get exactly the same feelings as you would have from the original content. The point should be to have something pleasing to read. That said, I think translation notes should be available in the game in a non intrusive way.

I think most people doesn't care who brought them the translation, as they are more interested in actually reading it. But showing the actual process might bring interest to it.

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A complex issue that deserves a multi-part reply...

The line of reasoning that I hear a lot: You're trashing my favourite stories with your shit translations!

There's bits of IP (intellectual property) mentality mixed into their reasoning so I want to clarify it first:

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. So these things are not like physical objects. The original isn't destroyed even when someone creates a derivative of the original. What you mean to say is that you fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

Any argument about the fluidity of the definition of IP doesn't address the main reason why translators say things like that. The reason people whine about it is because they disagree with the quality of the translation in some way - they feel it is sub-par, and they feel it should be somehow improved. These opinions may or may not be right - the only way to find out is to get them to voice it. Criticism is the only way works can improve, and should be welcomed always - provided, of course, it does not come with intolerable levels of self-righteous pomposity.

My response:

So when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original.

It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an un-endorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's brilliance.

That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

Yes, but the least ANY translator can do is make sure that their end-product reflects the original author's brilliance as much as is feasibly possible. Doing so requires a minimum of two things: a certain level of ability (ie fluency in the languages/translation), and a WANT to either utilise said ability to the fullest to ensuring said brilliance is conveyed effectively, OR improve said ability to the level where this can be done. Author endorsements don't mean the author isn't trying to grab publicity through half-assed translators. Reputable fan-translators tend to be comprised of like-minded fans with enough of both ability AND want. But money? Money does not factor into it. The only way it could possibly help is by securing the "ability" required. It is less good at acquiring is the "WANT". And a reliance on money, is, of course, antithetical to the Doujin community that has survived all these years on more or less this WANT alone!

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?
I challenge any translation group to say their work was sub-par just because they didn't have enough of a reputation. The quality of your work is something that you can very much influence, and I think anyone who considers putting forth public releases has an obligation to ensure that whatever they put out is as good as it gets. Mind you, this doesn't mean I insist everyone create PERFECT works right from the get-go. Rather, I do agree with your philosophy of a community of mutual learning, where encouragement and criticism are both given as deserved, to the end of encouraging everyone to perfecting their skills.

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy! just the english fluency)
I'm not sure how much use it would be for us at Fuwanovel to know what the rest think about either translation quality OR english fluency (unless it was a translation project for which WE were personally responsible).

That being said, I think your decision to separate English fluency from translation accuracy is wise. Fluency is definitely rateable like that, and everyone who d/ls and reads the VN can quickly give a rating. Translation accuracy, however, is a lot more subjective and dependent on many factors, and probably deserves replies in a more open-ended fashion.

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I agree with almost everything you said Harry, it is natural and important for people to voice their objections as part of the improvement process.

Except for the obligation part. I don't understand how they need to be obligated to anyone. They can re-write the story if they like. Just be honest and say that this is a fan translated rewrite and not a translation on the same level, the same definition bracket, as an Amaterasu translation.

And if the quality of the work is really really bad, then we just won't carry it on our site. And public dissent will fizzle them out. No one will recommend it, and hardly anyone ends up reading them. (e.g. Flyable Hearts)

For example, the Sharin no Kuni FD, the translators decided to axe all the routes except one (Houzuki route I think), which was the only one they deemed worth reading. And so in the final patch, the other routes are disabled by default (even though they were translated). The translators took their liberty of improving or transforming the original work.

NNL released minori's Ef -A tale of the two- which was a mashup of both the 1st half and the 2nd half and they called it Ef Lite. It had big chunks of the game cut out from the original and they were completely upfront about having done it. So when you read Ef Lite, you are reading a fan translated rewrite and not the original.

But they are not obligated to put out a quality work. That's like saying the vast hordes on youtube creating remix videos are obligated to create GOOD remix videos just because (they are damaging the original) I ask how?.

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The line of reasoning that I hear a lot:

"You're trashing my favourite stories with your shit translations!"

There's bits of IP (intellectual property) mentality mixed into their reasoning so I want to clarify it first:

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form. So these things are not like physical objects. The original isn't destroyed even when someone creates a derivative of the original. What you mean to say is that you fear that the original work or the original JP author will be viewed in a lesser light than they deserve.

My response:

So when people read unofficial fan translations by some non-paid non-qualified random on the internet, they don't expect to be reading the original.

It is a derivative of the original. They are reading an un-endorsed fan translated rewrite. So the best opinion they can form is a critique of the fan work but not a full understanding of the extent of the original author's brilliance. That is why the original author is not 'trashed'. The only way you can expect it to resemble the original is if you 1) paid a professional. 2) it is endorsed by the JP author. 3) the translation group has a good reputation.

That is why reputation is so important on the internet. It is an intangible credit and it governs user experience. If none of the 3 points are valid, then can you still say the original work had been 'trashed'?

That is why I thought to ask Vax to add a way for users to rate the fluency of the English in the translation. (Not the translation accuracy! just the english fluency)

What do you think?

I think that is indeed one of the factors they really care about, the fact that the translation is somehow going get a bad reputation and therefore causing the original to get bad reputation. I think that this is wrong because if you see what you think is a bad translation, you can have whatever opinion you have about the translation but that should not affect the opinion of the original work at all.

This is why I agree that you technically do not "trash" the original work. And also, if you think about it, it is not possible sometimes to truly convey the author's intention in a different language. This is not only for a VN or an anime fansubs, but also in novels. In the end, unless the author him/herself translate it, or they endorse a certain translation, some meaning will be lost in translation.

In terms of reputation, I agree that it is important, as well as experience (though reputation is usually accompanied with experience anyway). But just because there are some unknown group translating a VN, doesn't mean that it will be bad, nor does it mean that they will be "trashing" the original VN. It should be in every translator's intention to try their best to stick to the original or intended meaning as much as possible.

Of course, when it comes to fluency, this is not a question of should or should not. Just as I'm sure that the original is in a fluent Japanese language, the translation should be in fluent English language. In the end, the goal of translating (especially fan translating) a work is to spread the work past the language barrier. In that respect you should give a fluent English translation if you're translating

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...

Except for the obligation part. I don't understand how they need to be obligated to anyone. They can re-write the story if they like. Just be honest and say that this is a fan translated rewrite and not a translation on the same level, the same definition bracket, as an Amaterasu translation.

...

But they are not obligated to put out a quality work. That's like saying the vast hordes on youtube creating remix videos are obligated to create GOOD remix videos just because (they are damaging the original) I ask how?.

No no, they're not obligated to anyone - except themselves.

Put it this way: There are alot of translators who declare that they translate out of love. Insani even stated clearly on their page: any enjoyment others get out of the process is an inconsequential side-effect. Those who upload crap vids on Youtube probably hold the same philosophy - they don't intend to become famous, or make something of themselves with those works. So they don't mind uploading "crap" because they enjoy doing it and that's all that's important to them. The unusual thing about social media-driven places like YouTube, though, is that often any recognition is better than no recognition at all. It's probably the same with the VN scene - any translation is better than no translation at all, probably because it generates interest in the project. No matter how short-lived, it gets people to take notice of it, perhaps even making new translators out of those who have.

The thing is, it doesn't work quite that way if you want to be taken seriously. You can't say or do anything without it being seen as an extension of yourself, or even what you represent. Top-performing public companies understand this and employ PR departments for this very reason. Would, say, Barack Obama be able to make an offhand statement, and then later laugh it off saying oh I didn't really mean that, without consequence? Not likely when the press is scrutinizing his every move!!

It probably comes right back to the reputation issue, and it's just as you described. Those who fall short of the community-expected standard will be ignored into obscurity. And it's up to the creator whether or not (s)he cares enough about this to ensure they do their best to ensure this doesn't happen!

Viewed this way, I actually like when people make posts discussing translation quality. Helps enlighten the masses on what the gold standard is. It fosters a culture of excellence - which, as long as it doesn't turn into self-righteous noob-bashing, can only be a good thing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well technically they are not trashing your favourite stories. Your favourite stories are still there. They still exist word for word in its original form.

This this this. I feel the same when people say a movie adaptation 'ruins' the original book. No - the original is still there. Just view the movie as some kind of 'alternate universe' (i.e. a derivative work).

Regarding rating translations, I'm not sure. On the one hand, it would definitely help people looking to play vn make decisions about what to play, and how to interpret what they are playing. On the other hand, I fear it could lead to a sense of elitism, which is exactly what Fuwa tries to avoid. Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic, but I can see it becoming a kind of hierarchy, which would push out the 'not as good' translators and not give them the chance to improve..

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A good topic to look into if you're interested, is the origins of this line of thought and how it propagated. Was it the "old VN translation culture" groups who started it to keep their hold on the "market", or something else? If this is one of the things Fuwanovel wants to get away from, knowing how these sorts of restraining thoughts begin might lead to a better understanding of how to prevent them from growing here.

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