Why do you use the term "VN"?

[Pabloc]

So, how about clearing up some things?

1) What are the origins of the "Visual Novel" term?

First of all, what we call VNs, in Japan belongs roughly into 2 categories: much more common adventure games (that use ADV-style presentation) and novel games/visual novels (that use NVL-style).

Now, on the West, we already have the genre that we call "adventure games" (you know, point and click stuff and such). If we used the same term for fundamentally different titles (that aren't even games really), it would have been simply confusing. So, instead of sticking strictly to the JP terminology, we put both NVL and ADV into the same category, and adopted the term "Visual Novels" for them (that was originally reserved only for the less common, NVL-style titles).

2) Why are they classified as games in Japan?

Well, VNs stem from the old interactive adventure games (like YU-NO for example) and, to a lesser extent, from dating simulations (like True Love). Over time, those games were becoming less and less interactive and more emphasis was put on either story or ero, until they turned into almost non-interactive titles, as we know them now. The modern VNs aren't really games anymore, but they are still classified as such in Japan, because of their roots (so it's not that their terminology is completely wrong, just slightly outdated).

However, not many of those older, more interactive adventure games are available on the West, so they remain pretty much completely unknown outside of Japan. Hence, classifying VNs as "games" here, makes even less sense than doing so in Japan.

As for some other terms mentioned here:

- galge = sub-genre of VNs, generally romance-oriented titles with male protagonist and female heroines, aka. bishoujo games. It's a relatively wide term, but it doesn't cover otome games, yuri, BL, nukiges, stuff like Umineko, etc. etc.

- eroge = everything with sexual content (in theory; in practice it's generally reserved for titles that have a rather high amount of ero). As it was already mentioned, not exactly the best term for VNs, since not all of them are eroge, and not all eroges are VNs.

- sound novels = again, just a sub-genre of VNs (pretty narrow this time).

- digital novel/interactive story/interactive digital novel/digital gamebooks/whatever -> not exactly good substitutes, they are too broad. They all ignore the "visual" aspect for example, so stuff like web novels and choose-your-own-adventure books also belongs to some of those categories.

[RusAnon]

Personally, I like the term, but I would use it in a looser, catch-all sense, unlike VNDB with its requirement of a "novel narrative" to be included in the database.

 

What exactly you mean by "catch-all"? It already covers pretty much everything you could relate to typical VN archetype. Any broader than that would be simply "japan games" or "games", which isn't descriptive enough.

[Albedo]

What exactly you mean by "catch-all"? It already covers pretty much everything you could relate to typical VN archetype. Any broader than that would be simply "japan games" or "games", which isn't descriptive enough.

 

For example, I would include something that looks like MLA, reads like MLA but has none of Takeru's inner monologue (all dialogue.)

[Kaguya]

For example, I would include something that looks like MLA, reads like MLA but has none of Takeru's inner monologue (all dialogue.)

They include Melty Blood, which is mainly a fighting game, so I guess they already do that.

[Pabloc]

For example, I would include something that looks like MLA, reads like MLA but has none of Takeru's inner monologue (all dialogue.)

There shouldn't be any problems with something like this. It may not be a typical VN, but I bet it would have been included as an exception (as long as it wouldn't have any gameplay elements, that is). Titles like http://vndb.org/v3896 are pretty much interactive movies with zero narrative and 100% dialogue. Such borderline VNs just put a bit more emphasis on the "visual" aspect in the presentation, instead of the "novel" aspect (but they have to meet other criteria to be included). Note that they still count as exceptions.

 

The narrative requirement was added mainly with gameplay-heavy titles in mind, in order to weed out pure RPGs, dating sims, random sex simulators and whatnot.

However, some game/VN hybrids still can be included, as long as they do have proper VN fragments, that make up a significant portion of the game (Ar Tonelico, Blaz Blue and such). That's where the novel narrative matters the most - in determining whether the titles does have novel elements at all, or just dialogues, present in almost every game.

 

I find VNDB standards a bit too "cath-all" actually, with all those pure games like Phoenix Wright laying around...

[Zakamutt]

I'll note that vndb management specifically decided to include ace attorney games due to their popularity, as an exception. They do have some of the trappings of a vn, in particular the first case of the first game.

[Kitouski]

 I dont understand your question at all. Its like you were asking why is there a taxa called "Mammalia" when you also have Marsupialia and Eutheria. 

 

 A visual novel its the proper name for a category of videogames. Period. Calling it "game" doesnt do anything for me. It doesnt tell me which kind of game it is, if i dont know it before hand. 

 

 I dont think that i should add much more. If you have a proper nomenclature you can extract a lot of information at once. 

 

 For instance if i say "Real Time Strategy", you know that im talking about a subgroup of strategical videogames, that while sharing a number of characteristics with the rest, have some special qualities that tell them from the rest. They are usually battle games that focus on resource management, etc,etc,etc.

 

 The opossite is also true. Saying VN tells me which kind of game it is, but it doesnt tell me the GENRE of the game itself. It may be a dating simulator or not, you could be chasing boys or girls, maybe its erotic or not, it could give you different paths to choose or not, etc. 

 

 The term Visual Novel sits in the same level as wide encompasing categories like Fighting games, Rol Playing games, First Person Shooter games, etc. 

 

 Its quite self evident, i dont understand what you are asking about to start with. 

 

Actually, going to have to completely agree with Lord Zero here and I think you're highly misinterpreting what he meant Joy.

 

A video game is simply electronic software that revolves around human interaction with a user interface to generate visual feedback on a video device... it's never been defined as any more then that. We call RTSs "Real Time Strategys" because they're strategy games played in real time. We call games "First Person Shooters" because they're in the first-person perspective and involve shooting. We call "visual novels" because they're games based off their visuals and they read like a novel... and they're still marketed as games because they fit the original definition for most people and especially businesses. If it doesn't count as a game for others, it honestly feels about as silly as saying social games on cellphones aren't games because that's not how it's traditionally done, which plenty of people do but we keep calling them games anyways. We don't call JRPGs Rorupureingugemu (or whatever the proper romaji is) because that would be correct if we lived in Japan, that would make no sense in an English speaking country. We can describe a role-playing game a million different ways, a war game, a murder game, an MMO, virtual chess, whatever we wanted to call it, but just describing the thing would make it pretty clear pretty fast rather then giving it a billion subgenres.

 

I don't think he was trying to be offensive, because even I'm mystified by what the question of this thread is... because I literally don't quite understand what we're asking here. I really do get the difference in meaning with the different names, but it's pretty apparent that "galge" or "eroge" is not a widely accepted name for anyone but the niche fanbase. Old Hirameki games plastered the boxes with the term visual novel because it was the most neutral, descriptive, universally understandable term and a lot of other companies just rolled with it. It's an easy to understand, culturally acceptable, marketable term. Eroge is not always accurate and is not a very marketable term, Galge, Bishojo game or even "pretty girl game" would not be culturally understandable at all and very unmarketable. It just happened to fall that way that visual novel works, just like RTS is more marketable then "war game". It's all relative though, a name is just a name. The recent trend is to call a lot of recent shooting games like Halo, Gears of War and Dead Space "space marine shooters"... there's no "rules" in naming things. Like... this I really don't mean to offend at all to state, but the second line of your signature (hater of weeaboos) seems ironic when we're questioning why we don't use the Japanese term that virtually no one outside of VN culture would understand instead of a universally understood and accepted term.

[InvertMouse]

I actually have a deep reason behind why I refer to visual novels as VNs; because it's faster to type B). #okay

[Darklord Rooke]

Got really curious as I saw people referring to the commonly enjoyed entertainment as "VN", or "visual novel". As everyone knows, in Japan, the term "visual novel" is pretty much non-existent, and are actually referred to as "ギャルゲ" (Galge), usually for the PSP games that do not have sexual content, or "エロゲ" (Eroge) or for PC games with 18+ material.

 

I'm also curious to how the term "visual novel" even originated, since it's not only "visuals" that make up what we call "VNs". There's sound, so why not call it "Sound Novels"? I can only imagine that the "visuals" were focused on first, since I know of several "Visual Novels" without voices... 

 

I use the term 'VN' because it's more descriptive. Terms like 'eroge' and 'galge' are borderline useless, because they give you little information about the gameplay mechanics of a title. When people search for games, one of the first things they do is narrow the pool down via gameplay mechanics, then they start looking at the details. The term 'visual novel' gives you much knowledge about the mechanics of the game in a two word title, 'eroge' gives you nothing except 'it has erotic content', information you could get from the ratings sticker (Lightning Raidy is an eroge and so is black bible, but one is a rpg and the other is essentially a novel.) Galge games, for example, can have 'visual novel' mechanics or 'dating sim' mechanics, 2 very different types of games. Some people may like stories but hate having to manipulate stats or micromanage day-to-day shit like you would in a dating sim, so the term 'galge' would mean little to them.

 

So the term 'visual novel' is a relatively accurate description of the gaming mechanics of certain games, which is probably why it's officially used. Just like 'Gears of war' is officially categorised as a 'third person squad shooter', because it accurately describes the gameplay mechanics, not a 'space marine shooter' because that tells you SFA in comparison (yes, I'm referring to you Kitouski )

 

Concerning the term 'sound novel', it's too close to 'audio book' which means something else entirely.

[zoom909]

This is interesting:  here are the current genre tags on EroGameScape in JP

3D ACT ETC(その他) RPG SLG STG TBL(テーブル) 育成モノ 乙女ゲーム KineticNovel タイピングゲーム VN(ビジュアルノベル) ボーイズラブ 麻雀

 

Notice that they now have VN as a genre, while the old ADV/AVG/NVL are nowhere to be found.  Maybe they're coming around to the Western way of thinking.

 

You know, a visual novel ain't what it used to be like 5 years ago.  Back then, if someone talked about a visual novel I'd immediately be interested.  These days, with all the OELVNs and mystery VNs and otome games and converted classics, if someone says "visual novel" the first thing I immediately gotta ask is "bishoujo game"? and if no then I yawn and go back to my manga.

[Joyjason]

I'm pretty surprised that this thread lived until now. (Didn't think it would even make it past a week, lol)

 

Nonetheless, let me make my point crystal clear; I couldn't care less what you call your "games". I just wanted to know your reasoning. 

 

For the people who are comparing "VNs" with actual interactive games like Final Fantasy, Pokemon, or whatever famous games are out there, there's always going to be two elements in all forms of "games"

1) Interactive element. Yes, this is present even in "VNs" due to you "clicking" stuff, even if it means the auto button. This sole reason is how it "receives" input from the player, and considered a game. DIsagree? Hit me with your opinions

2) I don't know about you, but a lot of games absolutely suck if it's purely gameplay and no story. I want to have my characters interacting in some way throughout the entire gameplay. This is why Final Fantasy is popular; this is why pokemon's quality is exaggerated with the release of X and Y. If a "game" doesn't have any story, it will suck, and lose popularity rapidly. 

 

But doesn't that mean we have to consider all games like pokemon and FF as a visual novel? As with 99% of this forum's population, I'll have to disagree. 

 

Then I go back to our "old terms" ADV or NVL. 

These are elements exclusive to Visual Novels, and usually have separate artworks for Background, CG, and character sprite (of course, I'm referring to some of the newer games released).

 

Long story short, a "visual novel" is called that way because it has a dialogue box at the bottom (almost always), USUALLY unanimated sprites (although there can be miscellaneous animations to a certain extent), a complex story line that the producer prioritizes to a large extent, and character sprites floating around the screen while the engine recalls its voice/bgm files. 

 

The reason I push the so-called "niche" terms like eroge and galge, is because in MY own eyes, they are the more appropriate term. Many of you suggested that a VN is the better term to be used for various reasons, but I like to be literal--these games have the adult content, while having the implications of a "VN" (you'd only know this if you were highly experienced with "eroge"). For the players who don't know that and refuse to learn? Sorry, I don't feel necessary to interact with them at all. 

 

Furthermore, I know of plenty of people outside of this community who would rather use the term "VNs" instead of "eroge" because of social taboo. Again, this is another one of my rants, but it's not like you're asking to proclaim it to everyone.

 

For me, when communicating to someone who comes to my review site, I use the term "eroge". When my roommate (with no experience of anime or VNs) asks me what I play, I'll answer him with "a novel-like game with sexual content--Called eroge (I still use the term". However, I expect the same term to be used in communities such as this. 

Bring on the fresh new discussion.

[RusAnon]

Sorry, I don't feel necessary to interact with them at all.

 

Good luck with that.

[Darklord Rooke]

You know, a visual novel ain't what it used to be like 5 years ago.  Back then, if someone talked about a visual novel I'd immediately be interested.  These days, with all the OELVNs and mystery VNs and otome games and converted classics, if someone says "visual novel" the first thing I immediately gotta ask is "bishoujo game"? and if no then I yawn and go back to my manga.

 

Plenty of diversity is a good thing. But I agree with you on mystery VNs, can't stand them.

[Pabloc]

@zoom909

I'm not too familiar with EGS, but ADV is probably treated as default style/genre (since it's the most common), so they don't have any tags for it. Note that there aren't that many titles tagged with "VN".

 

@Joyjason

So, you'd call Ever 17 or Steins;Gate "eroge" as well?

Also, note that the vast majority of story-oriented titles have minimal amounts of H. Calling something like Fate/Stay Night an "eroge", while thoeretically isn't that incorrect, makes about as much sense as calling it "slice-of-life" (actually, I'm pretty sure it has much more SoL content than sex...).

 

"Visual novel" is a completely self-explanatory term. Whether someone is familiar with JP pop-culture or not, everyone will understand that it's something resembling a book with pictures. By "eroge", an average person (unfamiliar with Japmedia) will understand either some retarded ero flash games or strip-poker and such (and they will be right, those are eroge after all). I don't know what part of this term is "literal".

 

So no, labelling all VNs as "eroge" is not appropriate in any way. It stresses the "ero" part, that in some cases is non-existent, and even in your average 18+ galge, it usually makes up less than 5% of the entire title. This term only really makes sense in case of nukiges and some rare, ero-heavy story-oriented VNs, otherwise it's kinda misinformative.

[Joyjason]

@Joyjason

So, you'd call Ever 17 or Steins;Gate "eroge" as well?

Also, note that the vast majority of story-oriented titles have minimal amounts of H. Calling something like Fate/Stay Night an "eroge", while thoeretically isn't that incorrect, makes about as much sense as calling it "slice-of-life" (actually, I'm pretty sure it has much more SoL content than sex...).

 

"Visual novel" is a completely self-explanatory term. Whether someone is familiar with JP pop-culture or not, everyone will understand that it's something resembling a book with pictures. By "eroge", an average person (unfamiliar with Japmedia) will understand either some retarded ero flash games or strip-poker and such (and they will be right, those are eroge after all). I don't know what part of this term is "literal".

 

So no, labelling all VNs as "eroge" is not appropriate in any way. It stresses the "ero" part, that in some cases is non-existent, and even in your average 18+ galge, it usually makes up less than 5% of the entire title. This term only really makes sense in case of nukiges and some rare, ero-heavy story-oriented VNs, otherwise it's kinda misinformative.

 

Thank you for your point; it seems I was not clear enough.

 

Long story short, I don't actually enjoy games like Steins;Gate or Ever17. Yes, they were good titles, but they're only a few of the 400+ titles I've played until now. I wouldn't call them "eroge", but I've never really had to I mention it since you, your mother-in-law, and your long lost half-sister seems to have played it. In any case, I would define these as plain old "games". 

 

Slice of life in FSN? Okay, maybe it has a bit more storyline than your mainstream nukige, but I'd say that FSN is extremely overrated by the English community. As I said, FSN is one of those games where 

The heroine dies and everyone proceeds to bawl their eyes out. I think that's why it's so overrated, since there's really no theme of "death" in other "eroge".

 

 

If you want real slice of life... You really shouldn't be looking at an eroge with a fantasy setting with monsters and characters with superhuman capabilities

 

And regarding that "5%"..........

so what if you had hydrochloric acid in 5% concentration...?

 

Holy shit, that stuff would be extremely dangerous to swing around, let alone drink it despite the fact that 95% is still water. 

 

Humorous analogy, but it still makes my point that if the story has some sexual content in it, no matter how small, it will be defined as an 18+ game, not sold unless you have ID (at least in the stores).

[Albedo]

Long story short, I don't actually enjoy games like Steins;Gate or Ever17. Yes, they were good titles, but they're only a few of the 400+ titles I've played until now. I wouldn't call them "eroge", but I've never really had to I mention it since you, your mother-in-law, and your long lost half-sister seems to have played it. In any case, I would define these as plain old "games". 

 

So Steins;Gate and Ever 17 would be games despite having no gameplay whatsoever? No, the choices do not count as gameplay. If they are games then every single VN, except Kinetic novels, would be a game too!

[Darklord Rooke]

Long story short, I don't actually enjoy games like Steins;Gate or Ever17. Yes, they were good titles, but they're only a few of the 400+ titles I've played until now. I wouldn't call them "eroge", but I've never really had to I mention it since you, your mother-in-law, and your long lost half-sister seems to have played it. In any case, I would define these as plain old "games". 

 

And this is the second reason using 'eroge' is inefficient. Not only does the term 'eroge' provide no information about the gameplay mechanics of a title (it does not imply 'VN' Joyjason. It's why Lightning Raidy is called an 'eroge' despite being a dungeon crawler RPG,) but you're reduced to referring to Stein's Gate and Ever 17 as 'games', again a term which provides no information about the gameplay.

 

We label games by gameplay mechanics, VN, RPG, shooter, puzzle. 'Eroge' and 'galge' are descriptions about content, which is why a lot of people don't use them.

 

@Albedo - I don't like referring to VNs as 'games' either, but people call 'choose your own adventure' books 'gamebooks' for some reason. I suppose calling VNs 'games' is consistent...

[RusAnon]

Eroge isn't even "description of content" its simply rating label, equivalent of "18+". You cannot know what particular game is about if someone calls it as eroge, you know only that there is at least one adult-only line/image (and you cannot even know how much of adult content there is — both renai with one-scene-per-heroine and nukige or h-rpg would be "eroge").

[Okami]

If I am not mistaken when "VNs" started being made for the first time back in 70' they were called Sound Novel and a few years later they become known as Visual Novels. Terms like galge, eroge Etc. come match later.

[renlian]

Very simple. It contains picture, and sound, but sound novel means like it is for listening and reading only, so Visual novel!

[AlphaSixNine]

To me it's mostly to separate the Nukiges from everything else.

 

I call Nukiges EROGE and everything else with enough focus on story and its characters VN/Visual Novel.