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The Line Between VN and Video Game


solidbatman

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Last year, I played through an incredible game called To the Moon. It's a story about two doctors who go into the minds of dying patients to make them believe that they fulfilled their greatest wish. It's a very bittersweet tale as we see the main character's life in reverse order. It features very little gameplay. Basically, you control the doctors as the move around the memories. interacting with objects advances the story. There are also little puzzles that need to be completed to advance to the next chapter of the story. The focus, by far of To the Moon, is the story. 

 

I hesitate to call it a video game as there is very little game play, but at the same time, I'm not sure if it qualifies as a visual novel. It's a very borderline work in any case. 

 

Corpse Party is another game with the same issue. VNDB classifies it as a VN, though it arguably requires more gameplay than To the Moon, to advance the story. Then you have VNs with a strong focus on game play such as; Kamidori, Yumina, and Danganronpa. It's obvious that the line between a VN and a video game is very blurred and the two cross over a lot.

 

My question is, where do you draw that line? What does a VN have to be to not be a video game?

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well what i would say the line between Games and VN's are pictures (maybe light animations) that are explaned with text (the story) and voice actresses "it's not very often games have still pictures with story to them"

 

So you are saying that you wouldn't consider Corpse Party a visual novel but a game instead. And Yumina would be a VN because it's story is told with still images?

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I would resort to a "this feel like a VN and this doesn't" kind of definition. Or at least something vague. If you try to make a rigorous definition based on specific criteria, there will always be some kind of exception game that doesn't fit but you just can't not consider a VN, or the other way around. Like when you're all proud of your shiny theorem or definition in maths and some guy shows up with an absurd function that cannot be conceived by a sane mind and it contradicts everything.

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So you are saying that you wouldn't consider Corpse Party a visual novel but a game instead. And Yumina would be a VN because it's story is told with still images?

well i have't played any off those 2 but the ground idea is that it is a book that the story are mainly told in text format not gameplay 

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Hmmmm.. interesting question. The biggest problem I find is that people usually asks this as if you have to choose one. For me it's not like that, you can call it a VN and a VG at the same time, the only issue is how much of each one it has in it. For example, BlazBlue (http://vndb.org/v6572), you can find it on VNDB and you can certainly classify it as a VN because it has VN elements enough to classify it as one, but in the end it has it's value in being a 2D figthing game, you can easily skip the story mode and just play it. There are too some like Yumina, Kamidori, Brave Soul, etc. with a strong focus on gameplay, but in this case they are usually referred as VNs instead of VGs, maybe it's because they have certainly VN elements but above everything I would say they are classified like that because you don't usually find 18+ material on VGs, and that's where the biggest difference to classify it as a VN or a VG has been marked (or so I think). Now again, I don't go for that kind of classification, because in the end this isn't black or white, it's a spectrum, a bit like saying "read" or "play" when reffering to a VN, both can be right dependng on the circumstances.

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Kai's actually writing a series of posts about this over at Deluscar.

 

For me it's all about the feeling of the game/novel, though it being on VNDB helps XD Corpse party is a visual novel for me because a lot of the story is told with still images like most VNs. The gameplay isn't a big enough component to make it a video game.

 

While Dangan Ronpa has a large gameplay component, because the gameplay only exists to facilitate the telling of the story and there are still images for the dialogue portions I still classify it as a visual novel. 

 

It's something you have to look at on a case-by-case basis. There's no set rule that you can apply to everything.

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I loved To The Moon :D~ Picked it up during a Steam Sale and then enjoyed it so much that I went out and bought a physical copy.

 

Like Kaguya, I'm not too concerned about definitions either. I'll just regard each piece work as, well, as piece of work. To The Moon does involve character movement (gameplay :P!) and solving a couple of puzzles. Just because of the appearance, I'd regard it as more of an RPG than a VN.

 

I'd guess a lot of us count a work as VN when there's a lot of talking where characters sprites are facing directly at the player.

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I'm glad there's someone else out there who enjoyed To The Moon, that game made me cry at the end.

 

This is a hard question.. 

 

I think where i draw the line is wether or not the game/VN is driven by story or by gameplay.

 

For example, for me corpse party or to the moon are considered visual novels for the sole reason that whatever you do in it it's all for the sake of the story, to build it and make your own path as a narrative. Sure you have to move your character around but it's all for the sake of the story and the amount of dialog and complexity in the narrative is far superior than of what i would consider an average game.

A game to me would have to not be story driven, meaning that during gameplay you do things to earn achievements or points (this includes anything like killing people in FPS games and anything else). any sort of interaction that does not contribute to a narrative, sure it will have dialog and a storyline but during actual gameplay you're doing stuff for the sake of earning points and complete missions, the amount of dialog and narrative text is far less in quantity than that of a visual novel, it's a game driven by action and not text.

 

This is what for me divides games and visual novels, though this can be ambiguous still, there's no absolute answer to every single game/VN, but i'll say one thing, if i'm enjoying it i'll keep playing/reading, as long as there's a good story.

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I think all visual novels are video games, and that it doesn't work that way, like it's black or white. It's like if we're calling Fallout 3 or System Shock 2 a RPG or a First-Person Shooter. Well, they're both, and they're all games. That's how I view visual novels; To The Moon, Blazblue, Corpse Party, they're just hybrid genres to me. I just think you can't view it so black and white, nor can you deny any sort of interactive computer software that's meant to entertain as not a video game. Someone google "Attack of The Mutant Penguins" for the Atari Jaguar and tell me if a game needs to be defined to one genre, like seriously, lol.

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Wasn't this already discussed to death?

VN is "visual novel". To qualify as VN, game should have "visual" aspect of some form, and "novel" aspect (in particular, narration). So if significant part of story is explained via narration text (ADV or NVL style), its VN. If text is limited to dialogues mostly or its audio narration, its not VN.

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Wasn't this already discussed to death?

VN is "visual novel". To qualify as VN, game should have "visual" aspect of some form, and "novel" aspect (in particular, narration). So if significant part of story is explained via narration text (ADV or NVL style), its VN. If text is limited to dialogues mostly or its audio narration, its not VN.

 

After running searches on key words, then going through all 15 pages of VN talk, I don't see a topic for it. It might be hidden away in an unrelated topic

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It's possible for a VN to be a video game, and it is possible for it to be something completely different.  The line is pretty much defined by the existence of actual gameplay other than story choices.  Stat screens (relevant ones), battle systems, gaming systems (puzzles and the like), and dating sims are all examples of elements that transform a normal VN into something more than a choose your own adventure book with pictures and music. 

 

Visual novels are a method of story-telling, and with the addition of game-elements, they become a game using the VN story-telling medium.

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Hm.  This is one of those topics that keeps coming up.  Since I've written extensively on this subject in other threads, and I don't want to start boring people, I'll try to vary my usual answer and make it a little edgier:

 

 

I suspect that -- upon extensive philosophical debate -- a person would ultimately reach the conclusion that there's no such thing as existence "visual novels" in any singular sense.  Instead, there are "visual novel elements", or an amalgam of traditional elements..  The games listed (and many more) (including, if I want to be controversial, games like Dear Esther) have elements of Visual Novels, but vary in the incorporation of other game- and narrative-elements.

 

Final controversial suspicion -- I suspect (deep down) that visual novels as we know them today will likely never fully catch on in the west.   I do, however, expect VN elements to pervade most genres and types of video games.

 

Off topic: Also, I suspect the "final victory" of VNs in the west may be a dedicated genre/product category listing on Amazon.com sites accessible from the main "book" drop-down menu.

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My question is, where do you draw that line? What does a VN have to be to not be a video game?

 

Imo, if a title emphasises the visual novel elements, then it is a VN. If it emphasises gameplay, then it is a game.

 

Kamidori's focus is on the RPG mechanics, so it is an RPG with visual novel elements. Little Busters emphasis is the story, so it's a VN with gameplay.

 

This way, Tiger Woods 2010 doesn't get categorised as an RPG despite featuring RPG mechanics (because it's emphasis is on the sport-sim elements.)

 

 

Corpse Party is another game with the same issue. VNDB classifies it as a VN, though it arguably requires more gameplay than To the Moon, to advance the story. Then you have VNs with a strong focus on game play such as; Kamidori, Yumina, and Danganronpa. It's obvious that the line between a VN and a video game is very blurred and the two cross over a lot.

 

VNDB is an okay guide, but their definition and database is flawed. Most people like it like that, but when it includes games like Phoenix Wright, Lightning Raidy and Kamidori, you know that accuracy isn't something they're too fussed about.

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 To me the difference lies in how important the story is. Meaning that "if you remove all the gameplay parts" would

the game still be interesting ? 

 I you only were to read around it, would you still care about it ? 

 

 I agree that the difference its not obvious at all, but it made do for a rule of thumb guide of sorts. 

 

 The corpse party games are more VN than everything IMO. Then again, the delivery depends a lot 

on the gameplay area. The atmosphere that drawns from walking around in a dark enviroment only reinforces

the thrilling story. But i think that the game would still hold as a read only adventure.

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 To me the difference lies in how important the story is. Meaning that "if you remove all the gameplay parts" would

the game still be interesting ? 

 I you only were to read around it, would you still care about it ? 

 

 I agree that the difference its not obvious at all, but it made do for a rule of thumb guide of sorts. 

 

 The corpse party games are more VN than everything IMO. Then again, the delivery depends a lot 

on the gameplay area. The atmosphere that drawns from walking around in a dark enviroment only reinforces

the thrilling story. But i think that the game would still hold as a read only adventure.

 

In the case of 999, I would've actually preferred if it was just a pure VN because I had no interest in any of those puzzles. They just got in my way of reading a really good story :P.

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Very good topic by solidbatman! 

 

I actually had this question asked to me by a friend, and this was the answer I gave him;

 

It's the amount of gameplay. If there is at least 10% of the gameplay dedicated to what we commonly define as "farming" or "grinding", then I would consider that "visual novel" a "video game"

 

As examples, I take Corona: For both the main game and the fandisk, it is possible to clear the entire game without having your characters at max level; you just need to balance out your character's levels throughout the story, and you should be able to clear every stage. Although in the main game for Corona, there are some advanced strategies that needs to be used against some of the bosses who continuously heal and make you want to rip your hair out (lol), it's still do-able. 

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If the majority of time with the piece of media in question is spent playing game play elements, then it is a game with a story. If most of the time is spent reading, and the emphasis is on the story, then it’s a visual novel with game play elements built in.

 

Personally I enjoy a challenge in a game, or a good story, but not both in the same game. Getting stuck on a difficult game play element that prevents you from proceeding with the story is very frustrating.

 

Also I do not like grinding in a game for a new bit of story. Games in the conventional sense have you mostly repeat the same action over and over again. This repetition provides nearly nothing in the way of food for thought, so conventional games seem mostly like a waste of time when compared to the value that visual novels offer.

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This repetition provides nearly nothing in the way of food for thought, so conventional games seem mostly like a waste of time when compared to the value that visual novels offer.

 

TBH, majority of VNs are very repetitive as well. Once you completed dozen of moege, you can predict events and even particular jokes and phrases in next ones with very high accuracy. And nukiges are even worse in this sense.

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TBH, majority of VNs are very repetitive as well. Once you completed dozen of moege, you can predict events and even particular jokes and phrases in next ones with very high accuracy. And nukiges are even worse in this sense.

 

 

The themes in all media are repetitive when looked at from a very high level. Most prime time North American television is a drama that revolves around cops, hospital staff, or lawyers for example. It's not the repetitive themes in games that I was complaining about, but the actual action of reading vs button mashing.  In one case my time is being traded for a continual dialog and train of thought vs being presented with experience from killing a mob in the other case.

 

Advancing through most games can usually be summarized as button mashing while you wait for something to die. At best you might be applying a bit of spatial reasoning, puzzle solving, and number approximation. While it's not to say these types of thought are totally useless, I'd argue that reading, even if it's the most repetitive drivel, is more beneficial. I was never a fast reader, but lately with all the reading I've done, mostly in the form for anime and VNs, I’ve gotten faster at reading. Reading speed as a skill directly helps me at work. The skills that are learned from conventional game play are pretty specific to games alone.

 

Even if the plot of a visual novel is a very tripe and common in theme, at least there is a theme that is being painted and a story that is progressing with every word. When a jumping puzzle, or mob of monsters, is cleared there is not always the same clear advance in dialog. Sure you may be closer to the next spoonful of story element, but the story element is just that, spoonfuls here and there contained in an otherwise repetitive time wasting gauntlet.

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