A conversation I had with Batman and Nayleen in a dream.

[Tay]

I spent ~5 minutes trying to come up with a good title for this post.  It never came.  Instead, I decided to call it exactly what it is:  I had an interesting dream about visual novels and video games which featured two friends from the forum.  

 

Yes, feel free to call it creepy.  But it was also a very interesting conversation.  For those interested in the details, see the spoiler below.  Otherwise, feel free to share your thoughts on the exchange:

 

Completely unimportant dream details:

The dream began with me checking my phone and noticing that I got a PM from Nayleen entitled, "Did you forget about the meeting? It's starting in 5 minutes."  I opened it up and "remembered" that I'd promised to do a VN podcast with Nayleen and Batman for a large, English VN podcast in London.  Luckily Nayleen had included a teleportation link, so getting to the meeting was as simple as downloading a teleportation app.

 

I "beamed" onto the podcast set -- which just happened to be a holodeck inside Hogwarts (yeah, see? Fascinating details into my psyche. Aren't you glad you opened this spoiler section?) -- and apologized repeatedly for forgetting about the podcast.

 

Sadly, I don't remember what these two "looked" like.

 

 

Conversation Points:

As we discussed visual novels, Batman made the point, "I treat visual novels like any other video game genre.  I see them less as books, and more like video games."

 

Nayleen inquired about that line of thinking, asking if Batman enjoyed VNs with gameplay elements more than "conventional" (text-only) VNs.  Batman said he'd never played a VN with gameplay, but that he imagined the combination would be "ideal".

 

At this point, I got "deep" and threw out a hypothesis that perhaps video games are meant to be "experiences", whereas visual novels tend to be "stories."  

 

In my head, I was arguing that video games and VNs offered two different types of immersion:  VNs utilize text, music, and visuals; and Video Games layer gameplay and visual/technical technology on top of that. 

 

I don't remember much more than that.

 

 

Back to reality... How about you?

Do you see VNs more like "books", or "video games", or something in the middle?

 

Are the experiences of VNs (text, music, visuals) better/worse/just different from the experiences you've had playing video games?

[Mevvrynne]

For myself, I would view VNs as books first and slightly into the middle ground at times (games such as Utawarerumono where the gameplay was so minuscule in my opinion that it didn't warrant as a pure VN or video game, but offered more story than the gameplay).
If I were to compare the experiences of VNs and video games though...I kinda can't because I have played far too many in short periods of time (An example of this was that I bought Darksiders 2, and the God of War Collection [God of War 1, 2, and 3 were included] and completed them all within 4 days), this is a bit of an odd viewpoint on the word "experience" though.

To go onto the text, music or visuals,  I definitely view VNs as a book in these categories.  The music is designed for specific types of situations (whether things are getting exciting, suspenseful, to emphasize if someone is being cute, silly moments etc) in VNs whereas in video games there are specific sound tracks for almost EVERYTHING (characters, zones, boss fights, regular combat [this can actually have MANY different tracks, it depends on the developers and the people writing the tracks]).  

The text is obviously the main point of a visual novel (don't say it's the visuals, because it's not.), you are reading text almost the entire time (or listening to the voice actors if you can understand it fluently).  Because the text is so important, I view it as a book first, as you can find everything (EVERYTHING) involved in the story, in that text.

The visuals are more of a bonus in my opinion to VNs as most of the time there are simple repeating sprites or backgrounds, but then the occasional CG every now and then.

But I have to admit there are VNs that I have described as more of a game than even legitimate (using this word loosely) video games, solely based on how much entertainment value I've gotten from them.

[shcboomer]

That is an interesting dream, but it does point out some interesting ideas.

 

Do you see VNs more like "books", or "video games", or something in the middle?

 

I see it as something in the middle or if you will another medium. It is something different because of how it is more interactive than a book by giving you the visuals and the sound. It is less interactive in most cases than most games since it is very text heavy and very story driven.

 

Are the experiences of VNs (text, music, visuals) better/worse/just different from the experiences you've had playing video games?

 

To be honest, I feel that it is a different experience. It's hard to classify it as better or worse than games since the range is too wide. It's similar to comparing the impact of a movie to the impact of a video game. It's hard to analyze without a set of guidelines. I'd say that it is a different medium and in most cases they have more impact than video games due to their content and the way they convey emotions.

[nohman]

Between "book," and "video game," I regard them and treat them as more akin to a book. They're definitely more than that, though. I think the best way I could describe it would be that they're stories delivered in a unique format and structure. They're stories with an experiential quality to them. Not unlike a movie or TV show, but with the added dimension of having a more immersive, intimate delivery.

 

I think you could call them a game, though. In particular those that have gameplay elements. With or without that though, VNs do fit the definition of structured play. They have goals, rules, some (albeit very limited) challenge, and interaction. You could probably dispute just how much is needed of each of those qualities to really be a game, but that'll be a matter of semantics.

 

In regards to the quality of experience VNs offer, it's just different. Different mediums offer different avenues and it's not really far to compare them. Movies have the benefit of live action and cinematography, which provides layers of meaning that visual novels can't offer. Books are like stories told pure. It gets to the essence of what is trying to be conveyed and it delivers it without much noise. Video games offer player agency. They all have their place and different stories/meanings/intentions are better suited to different mediums.

[Katatsumuri]

That's actually a very interesting point...

 

But anyways, I think that Visual Novels lies somewhere in the middle, having the interactiveness of a game, but the longevity and detail of a book. To me, that was all I've ever wanted. For example, almost any VN (obviously excluding nukige) I've ever read have had a better experience overall than most of the Videogames I've played. Visual Novels, like books, ARE story and therefore, very immersive if they're done right.. In most videogames, the story is sadly only framework or filler for the actuall game, but that can be excused if the game is mostly just trying to be fun to play. As you've probably noticed while playing games, it is not often that the story and gameplay is actually integrated with eachother. Mostly, the story has to take a step back in favor of the gameplay itself.

 

But to further discuss the question of whether or not you're reading or playing a VN, I would say that if it has gameplay, you "play" it. If it doesn't have gameplay and only choices, you read it.  

 

This was probably not very coherent, but these are my thoughts on this topic.

[Ashadow700]

Tay, you need to go and repost this over at the Dreamviews forums - they would love to read it.

 

Anyhu, I consider VNs to ge closer to books then games on the "novel - video game"-spectrum, because of of the reason that you read them.

Video games, (at least the vast majority) you play for the gameplay and the interactive elements, while visual novels you read for the plot and characters. Video games can of course have great storys but most of the time that is not why you are playing them.

[Nayleen]

That was fun to read. I'd totally turn up like this to such an event.

 

That said, my thought was always that VN are closer to books than to actual games, even those with gameplay elements don't come close, but still kind of a hybrid. That's also why I was excited for story-driven "games" like Dear Esther and The Stanley Parable moving closer to that. I think the terms "play" and "read" don't really fit or describe them very well, more like "experience" (I just read your OP again and huh, that does match up at least).

 

I enjoy the storytelling of VNs and similar media way more than I do in other games, no matter how big of a part the story plays.

[Cali]

Hehe finally a topic i can respond to! 

 

Well if you look at the game developer Bioware from EA, they have been trying to merge the line of making important choices and have some good gameplay. Of course they didn't always succeed but they knew if a story had any hope of being important enough to the player there would have to be a solid story and some choices/outcomes to make the player base care.

If you look at the mass effect series it was basically a story with fairly big and small choices (depending on how you look at things) that made up the hole series and carried it across 3 games.

 

Since big gaming company's have to 3D model, add voices, motion capture, PR marketing for millions of dollars and make it as broadly available to everyone, (dumb down/make it as casual as possible) the story will have to suffer or the gameplay. Since they have to make it profitable on a huge scale it makes no sense for a "videogame" to dumb down gameplay so they go with what most immature kids want, "shoot bad guys in face over and over".

In my honest opinion Bioware only managed to make a good a balance between story and gameplay in Baldurs gate 1-2 and Dragon age Origins. (i still liked mass effect FYI)

 

Now if you look at Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit from the studio Quantic Dream those are almost pure storytelling games with a few wiggle's of the controller and some QTE fights and whatnot. However personally i did not get attached to the characters since they was so short and you got so little bagground you couldn't care for any of them. They were good stories and i enjoyed them don't get me wrong, however i felt they were limited by their choice of using full motion capture and 3D modeling. 

 

You can argue gameplay and immersion factor all day but each individual has their own sense of that and what they get attached to in a vn or game. 

 

As told countless times before me, vn's gets added a different layer in respect to character development and deeper story compared to games. Even if most vn's don't have gameplay it wouldn't matter because it's trying to tell a story, and not making you 360noscope a dude across the map.

 

Visual novel's get's the extra features of having an almost limitless amount of character and story development compared to games. Games can't quite compete in that area but can provide a world where you are free to walk around, where you want and experience what you want within that game.

 

I think visual novels are a hybrid of games and books. the experiences you get from games and visual novel's are vastly different from eachother in itself tho. 

 

I would say visual novel's provide a more stable form of entertainment experience then games do, since the reason WHY you are driving a racing car in a car game is never explained, cos who really cares. However in a visual novel they would have to.

[REtransInternational]

"You know you're addicted to Fuwanovel when..."

VNs are interactive (read text, go to next line..., make choices), but in some ways, so is a book (turn the page...). There are choose-your-adventure books which is similar too, but without the multimedia.

If a VN only has pictures and text, no audio or video, no choices, then it's more like a (illustrated) book. If it has many choices, audio, and video, then it becomes more of a game. It's not black and white, it's a spectrum.

[solidbatman]

 

 

 

Conversation Points:

As we discussed visual novels, Batman made the point, "I treat visual novels like any other video game genre.  I see them less as books, and more like video games."

 

Nayleen inquired about that line of thinking, asking if Batman enjoyed VNs with gameplay elements more than "conventional" (text-only) VNs.  Batman said he'd never played a VN with gameplay, but that he imagined the combination would be "ideal".

 

At this point, I got "deep" and threw out a hypothesis that perhaps video games are meant to be "experiences", whereas visual novels tend to be "stories."  

 

In my head, I was arguing that video games and VNs offered two different types of immersion:  VNs utilize text, music, and visuals; and Video Games layer gameplay and visual/technical technology on top of that. 

 

I don't remember much more than that.

 

 

 

 

Surprisingly enough, what I said in your dream is actually pretty accurate to what my opinion is on Visual Novels. I look at them as another genre of video games that focus solely on stories rather than on gameplay. I also have never played a VN with game play, but thats simply because most elements of VN game play that I see tend to be grindy, poor-mans JRPGs. 

[Joyjason]

Visual Novels are essentially Light Novels + Sprites and more pictures + Voice for me.

 

No more, no less. 

I mean, what other definition is plausible? XD

[Clephas]

First, let me state that all three points of view have a certain degree of validity.  Seeing VNs as games and combining the element of VN story-telling with rpg-gaming brought us classics such as Aselia and Agarest War, after all.  However, most of the best VNs are book-style, with the game focused on the story.  For every Aselia, there are a dozen other gameplay-VNs where the gameplay serves solely to irritate the player and disrupt the story-telling.  So, those who believe that they are essentially 'books' aren't entirely wrong.  However, my way of thinking comes closer to Tay's.  I believe VNs are a medium devoted primarily to telling a story.  If the gameplay enhances the story (such as in Ikusa Megami Zero) or serves as a spice to it, then it is all well and good.  However, if a story is better off without the gameplay, then there is no reason why gameplay should exist there.

 

Understand, I began my days as a gamer with the NES era, and I fell in love with rpgs first, games second.  That love-affair continued (with a few side-trips into shooters and hack and slash for stress relief) for the better part of twelve years, until I met Tsukihime, which opened my eyes on how story could be told using the VN medium.  I got storytelling that I'd only rarely seen, even in the best of rpgs (such as Suikoden, Xenogears, Xenosaga), in a format that did not in any way disrupt my immersion in the story with unnecessary elements.  It was better than manga, because manga didn't appeal to my ears, and it was better than a simple book because it gave me a visual representation of the characters in the story (though I still read books constantly).  It combined the three elements of telling a good story in a game (video, audio, and text) without forcing me to interrupt the story to fight an enemy, delve into a dungeon, or solve a puzzle.  From there on, there was no turning back.

 

I've found that I dislike VNs that have choices for the sake of choices (most choices in moege are irrelevant, for instance) and I like ones that decide the direction of the story early on, so as to create more distinctive plot paths.  So, my viewpoint is not that of a gamer, when it comes to visual novels.  However, if you were to ask me whether gameplay is always a block to telling a good story, once again I would have to shake my head, though there are VNs where that is the case (Hyakki Yakkou, all Liarsoft games with gameplay elements, dating sims).  

[Isaac]

Visual novels are a type of medium, you can pretty much sum up every medium with how it relates to films and books. VN's can both tell a story or give you an interesting experience, it depends on the game. I like visual novels that go a bit meta (little busters, ever17, virtue's last reward) but pure story (Clannad) is also great.

[Flutterz]

I feel like generally VNs are more like books than games, since most of the "interaction" is reading text, and only every now and again do you get to make a choice of some sort. I wouldn't agree that VNs are "stories" as opposed to "experiences", though. Seems to me that things like Clannad are more enjoyed for the experience rather than the story.