Jump to content
Funyarinpa

I'm leaving Fuwanovel, because I'm starting to realize that this community and the VN community at large has hurt me.

Recommended Posts

47 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

I'll be honest- On a personal level, I find this shit disgusting, and reprehensible. To an extent, I'm slightly embarrassed I've ever been a member of this forum. I find it, and all of you lolicons, fucking gross. That's enough reason to leave.

And man, that's something you're absolutely entitled to. Just like expressing your own story and being frustrated by people that don't understand it and think they have no responsibility to prevent it from happening to others. But yeah, the way you fixate on people liking/defending this content is borderline bigoted. You might believe that they deserve the insults, but the moment you basically categorize them all as paedophilia/rape enablers, there's no place for discussion any more. I hate loli and violent porn and there are forms I'll publicly shame with no issue (vide Hajimete no Okaa-san or Musumaker), but you're more or less calling every VN fan ever a pervert and abuser by association. That's both over the top and kills any chance of dialogue.

And I'm sure there's some VN fan pedophile out there that felt encouraged by 4chan and loli porn (because, could he be encouraged by Fuwa much in the last 3-4 years?). But take eroge into perspective. How big this community really is? What kind of effect it might have on society at large? How did it change over the years? I find the current VN community very diverse and progressively more open. Loli content is on the margins in places like here or the subreddit, often being shamed openly. I don't see many impressionable kids registering - I maybe saw one during my whole time here writing an introduction post. Not only there are fights way more worth fighting, you also go into it with such a backwards approach that even me, someone who's much closer to your position than most people around here, is getting weirded out by it. Sorry that it's the message I'm leaving you with, but yeah, you go so far that I feel obliged to defend lolicons and guro fans. Not a thing that I'd ever expect to happen.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, SkraalQ said:

I feel really sad for you... That's a lot of hate to endure living with... I hope you can find happiness in the future.

Yeah, in all honesty, at this point I'm just worried for Funya, any other discussion seems already obsolete. He was such a positive fellow Uchikoshi fan (well, until the ZTD and Punchline failures at least) and then a few years later I suddenly see him turn into a politics-obsessed unhinged individual hating on the whole forum because he... doesn't like loli and rape content? Well, I don't like it either (even though I actively advocate against arbitrary censorship of any kind) but it's, like, 5% of the forum content at most?

Obviously Lesiak is right, eroge are rated 18+ for a reason, minors shouldn't really be allowed in here, eroge are not exactly an education material. While I believe it's important for the "problematic" content of many kinds to exist, kids should first learn the basic moral guidelines to be ready to engage with it on the right terms. But how can you even control this? You can't just make all forums child-friendly, can you? Did Funya ever say he's a minor? How is it users' responsibility to properly raise other people's children? Besides, it's just as possible that Funya got caught up with wrong people on the waves of the internet who turned him into a hate machine, there's an insane amount of absolutely wild people of this kind out there.

But all this is pointless hollow talk, my previous post got deleted as a part of an offtopic-chain, but I guess I'll repeat this. Funya, it's not healthy to engage in this kind of hateful talk for a whole day, if nothing else you definitely look like you need to at least take a break from this forum to relax and improve your mental health. This is not a hill to die on.

Edited by novurdim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

but you're more or less calling every VN fan ever a pervert and abuser by association. That's both over the top and kills any chance of dialogue.

Trust me, if that was what I'd been trying to do, I'd probably not even say shit before leaving. 

I simply believe the VN community as a whole has a significant, deep-seated and pervasive issue. If I didn't think things could change, I wouldn't have bothered to write anything about that. Furthermore, if nothing else, I know there are other people like me out there who have been harmed by how the VN community underestimates the dangers of these topics, and if nothing else I hoped I'd get through to one of those people. Many, perhaps most of us are complicit in perpetuating this issue, but it's something we need to reflect upon regardless. The VN community as it stands is not a safe place for many people.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, novurdim said:

Yeah, in all honesty, at this point I'm just worried for Funya, any other discussion seems already obsolete.

It's legitimately possible that some of the stuff I've seen condoned in the VN community and elsewhere (anime/manga/hentai) has legitimately traumatized me on some level. 

Traumatized by posting online. Just think about the extremity of the things I've been seeing for that to happen.

(edit: I've been informed that this comes off as disrespectful, so I'm retracting this statement. I wouldn't describe my condition as "trauma".)

Edited by Funyarinpa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

Trust me, if that was what I'd been trying to do, I'd probably not even say shit before leaving. 

I simply believe the VN community as a whole has a significant, deep-seated and pervasive issue. If I didn't think things could change, I wouldn't have bothered to write anything about that. Furthermore, if nothing else, I know there are other people like me out there who have been harmed by how the VN community underestimates the dangers of these topics, and if nothing else I hoped I'd get through to one of those people. Many, perhaps most of us are complicit in perpetuating this issue, but it's something we need to reflect upon regardless. The VN community as it stands is not a safe place for many people.

Maybe some kind of disclaimer should be used for the site to make it less likely for people who would be distrubed to the point of feeling traumatized? Like this site contains discussions about content mainly focused on 18+ material and should not be used by minors and some of the content discussed could be traumatizing to some people so those who feel easily traumatized should leave this site now. I know this wouldn't be a perfect solution and that there would likely still be people on this site who shouldn't be here for their own sake, though maybe it could reduce the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

It's legitimately possible that some of the stuff I've seen condoned in the VN community and elsewhere (anime/manga/hentai) has legitimately traumatized me on some level. 

Traumatized by posting online. Just think about the extremity of the things I've been seeing for that to happen.

Yes, that's exactly why it's important not to allow minors in here, it doesn't even take anything extreme to influence some of the more... mentally weak kids. There are a whole lot of different absolutely legitimate forums (and movies, for that matter) out there that are considered 18+ because their content can easily traumatize children. But should "think of the children" really be a basis for banning the adult content and discussions? Whose responsibily is it that you, as a kid, wandered into a territory that clearly was never meant for you? You make the same arguments as one of my colleagues who claims that he is a heavy smoker because back in the day he wandered into the wrong StrongDC channel. In the modern society kids are exposed to such a wide range of things on the net but parents rarely take notice of this.

Edited by novurdim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First I want to say that I respect you and I understand how some of the things you talk about can mess you up, but I can't agree about some of the things that you said. 

I think that most of the pop/hip hop/rap music and most of the celebrities are hurting people by depicting things that are bad, but I have no choice because I am unwillingly exposed to that things every single day while walking on the street and while I'm at my workplace. Should I hate all of the people who worship that things, quit my job and escape society by building a shack in the woods and living there for the rest of my life?

1 hour ago, Funyarinpa said:

I wrote this thread because I literally was personally hurt by the very people posting in this thread and their attitudes. I wanted to talk about how certain things we endorse and enable as a community can hurt people, because I've been hurt by this very same thing. 

You are not hurt, you are offended. Some people are offended by cars and fast driving, does that mean that I'll have to quit loving cars? If people can't make a difference between fast driving and unsafe driving and claim that they are hurt because I love cars, I don't care, because it's their fault, same with that loli stuff.

1 hour ago, Funyarinpa said:

It hurts people who have been subjected to child sexual abuse (it retraumatizes them). Every single person who's not here to talk about lolis is exposed to them against their will.

I'm not here to talk about lolis and they're not my kind of thing, but I have almost never felt exposed to them against my will. I just ignore topics about those things. About hurting people who have been subjected to child sexual abuse : So does that mean that people who have been hit by a car with some moron driver inside are hurt by people who love cars and people who are racing drivers?

1 hour ago, Funyarinpa said:

I can assure you that there's a VN enthusiast pedophile out there who, encouraged by all the lolicon talk, has actually abused children because getting off to porn of children is normalized in this community.

For me, a VN enthusiast is someone who will never use VNs for something bad, so I refuse to believe that there's a real VN enthusiast who has abused children because of the VN community. Just like a real car enthusiast will never hurt anybody by driving. People who love driving fast, are the opposite of people who drive recklessly and reckless driving is shunned in every real car community. You are also confusing pedophiles and child abusers, these are two very different things (both not good, but one is less worse) because most of the pedophiles hate sexual abuse.

1 hour ago, Funyarinpa said:

Refusing to examine how condoning lolicon and similar fetish stuff especially on a large scale is like driving on a road and refusing to slow down even though there's a car in front of you, then blaming the car in front of you for not changing lines and respecting your right to drive as you wish because any limitation on driving is a violation of the creed of Freedom of Movement, and saying you should have every right to drive without slowing down and other drivers are responsible for getting out of your way.

Please don't talk about driving if you don't understand it. All people think that they can hate on fast driving just because they don't know any better and are totally ignorant about driving (all of the people who aren't interested in cars and driving should burn their driving licenses, but thats another topic). Just yesterday I drove fast on the highway on the most left lane and someone cut infront of me (while driving way slower than me), to overtake a lorry. If my car wasn't equipped with very good braking discs, brake pads and rotors, I would have crused into him and we would both be seriously hurt and maybe dead. Who is at fault in that situation according to you? Is it me for driving fast in the empty, unoccupied lane on the safe, smooth and straight highway road, or is it the driver who cut infront of me for being an a$$ for not checking his mirrors before moving in front of me?

Edited by Mago Ivo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really think it's fair to be judging people based on what they like and enjoy. Yeah, you're hurt and/or offended. When that happens with me, you know what I do? Get off of the forums and Discord and go outside. There are certain factors in life we can control when it comes to our emotions. Removing ourselves from potentially harmful situations is one of them. Everyone is different and handles things differently, and having too much of something is never a good thing. I don't think there's a need to cut Fuwanovel out completely, but it might help to get out. You're becoming desensitized for a reason, and placing blame on your surroundings will only get you so far when you can control those surroundings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

It's legitimately possible that some of the stuff I've seen condoned in the VN community and elsewhere (anime/manga/hentai) has legitimately traumatized me on some level. 

Traumatized by posting online. Just think about the extremity of the things I've been seeing for that to happen.

Sorry, I'll get serious for a second, because you are being frivolous and (I hope) you don't realise it.

You say you could've been "traumatized" by posting online because you've seen "extreme" stuff. Earlier you felt entitled to say that things like loli content can make abuse victims re-traumatized.

Due to the environments I've lived my life in, I've known victims of abuse and some of them I've loved and called them my friends (and one of them my girlfriend). I can tell you neither of them would give a flying fuck about loli, or whatever "extreme" thing you've seen while posting. This is because this kind of people is either 1, strong and 100% over it (two girls I've known actually even enjoyed loli themselves) or 2, too busy dealing with their actual real issue every day and every second of their lives inside their heads to fucking care about what you call offensive or harmful.

Please, do not speak for them. Do not call whatever shit you have seen online "enough to traumatize" you. Do not pretend to understand what you know nothing about. You are being really, really disrespectful doing so, way more than anyone else here.

/seriousmode

:mare:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could argue this on and on, but I think it's been made clear that the crux of my point will go ignored. As such, I don't think I'll post on this thread any longer. 

3 minutes ago, SkraalQ said:

Sorry, I'll get serious for a second, because you are being frivolous and (I hope) you don't realise it.

You say you could've been "traumatized" by posting online because you've seen "extreme" stuff. Earlier you felt entitled to say that things like loli content can make abuse victims re-traumatized.

Due to the environments I've lived my life in, I've known victims of abuse and some of them I've loved and called them my friends (and one of them my girlfriend). I can tell you neither of them would give a flying fuck about loli, or whatever "extreme" thing you've seen while posting. This is because this kind of people is either 1, strong and 100% over it (two girls I've known actually even enjoyed loli themselves) or 2, too busy dealing with their actual real issue every day and every second of their lives inside their heads to fucking care about what you call offensive or harmful.

Please, do not speak for them. Do not call whatever shit you have seen online "enough to traumatize" you. Do not pretend to understand what you know nothing about. You are being really, really disrespectful doing so, way more than anyone else here.

/seriousmode

:mare:

I did not mean myself when I meant people could be retraumatized, I apologize for the implication.

Sadly, however, I've also met or heard from people who WERE very much hurt by learning of / being reminded of lolicons and the like. I apologize for framing it as a universal experience, it is not. But it absolutely can and does hurt people. I know victims of abuse who become really, really upset when the topic is brought up. (There's a really good read by an abuse victim about this on Medium, it's slightly more about fandom though, see if you can find it.)

Lastly, the reason I used the word "traumatize" is that I've been dealing with thoughts of self-loathing and deep guilt (and shame) due to reasons detailed in this thread for a long time, and I sincerely believe/fear it's altered how I view people, especially myself. So perhaps the word "trauma" is too much (I sincerely apologize if you believe that is the case), but I've certainly been harmed psychologically by it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

Sadly, however, I've also met or heard from people who WERE very much hurt by learning of / being reminded of lolicons and the like. I apologize for framing it as a universal experience, it is not. But it absolutely can and does hurt people. I know victims of abuse who become really, really upset when the topic is brought up.

Feels like you are grasping at straws, to be honest. It sounds like a joke to be the third person in a row who knows a few victims of abuse but it's extremely hard for me to even imagine that these people would care for something as petty as this. Literally every person I have ever seen claiming to be "hurt" by this stuff are people who are like you and just want to push an agenda by hearsay.

But you are certainly right that posting in this topic any longer is not something anyone would call a useful or even sane thing to do.

Edited by novurdim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Funyarinpa said:

I could argue this on and on, but I think it's been made clear that the crux of my point will go ignored. As such, I don't think I'll post on this thread any longer. 

I did not mean myself when I meant people could be retraumatized, I apologize for the implication.

Sadly, however, I've also met or heard from people who WERE very much hurt by learning of / being reminded of lolicons and the like. I apologize for framing it as a universal experience, it is not. But it absolutely can and does hurt people. I know victims of abuse who become really, really upset when the topic is brought up. (There's a really good read by an abuse victim about this on Medium, it's slightly more about fandom though, see if you can find it.)

Lastly, the reason I used the word "traumatize" is that I've been dealing with thoughts of self-loathing and deep guilt (and shame) due to reasons detailed in this thread for a long time, and I sincerely believe/fear it's altered how I view people, especially myself. So perhaps the word "trauma" is too much (I sincerely apologize if you believe that is the case), but I've certainly been harmed psychologically by it. 

 

No worries, sorry if was too crude too.

I believe this stuff harms you, if it wasn't the case we wouldn't be having this discussion. What's more, I respect you for being hurt and I understand your point and it makes total sense, and I believe many others do judging by the replies.

But people appreciates things like respect, I'm sure you do too even if you didn't care much about respect because you are hurt. Trying to "educate" others from a self percieved "higher" moral highground is also not respectful. Luckily, most people would agree to a respectful discussion even with people they disagree with, where they give facts and explanations and talk to each other peacefully.

Everyone here shares a lot of things with you. They like visual novels, some the same genre you do. Everyone hates actual abuse. Everyone would preffer no one got hurt by anything, believe me, even if they think you had no reason to get hurt.

If you find it within yourself to do so, maybe you could leave as you say, and then come and enjoy the part of the community and novels you like. You could even make a post explaining why you think some content is bad, many will join you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

I could argue this on and on, but I think it's been made clear that the crux of my point will go ignored. As such, I don't think I'll post on this thread any longer. 

I did not mean myself when I meant people could be retraumatized, I apologize for the implication.

Sadly, however, I've also met or heard from people who WERE very much hurt by learning of / being reminded of lolicons and the like. I apologize for framing it as a universal experience, it is not. But it absolutely can and does hurt people. I know victims of abuse who become really, really upset when the topic is brought up. (There's a really good read by an abuse victim about this on Medium, it's slightly more about fandom though, see if you can find it.)

Lastly, the reason I used the word "traumatize" is that I've been dealing with thoughts of self-loathing and deep guilt (and shame) due to reasons detailed in this thread for a long time, and I sincerely believe/fear it's altered how I view people, especially myself. So perhaps the word "trauma" is too much (I sincerely apologize if you believe that is the case), but I've certainly been harmed psychologically by it. 

 

Ok. So what's your solution to what your feeling? Like, you can try telling people what's right and wrong, but not everybody is going to agree. You are your own person, just like I am mine. Everybody has their own "triggers". Look, I do not wish to argue with you as I volunteer with survivors of abuse and nobody wins when it comes to arguing about your feelings and thoughts. Keep in mind that each person handles situations very differently and it's not cool to be generalizing and assuming things about people.

 

I hope you're able to get through the guilt and not be held a slave to it. It's a shitty feeling in general to have.

Edited by AdventSign

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

I could argue this on and on, but I think it's been made clear that the crux of my point will go ignored. As such, I don't think I'll post on this thread any longer.

If you're leaving now, then farewell, sir! Take good care of yourself throughout your life!

But, you know, you're going to get rid of the Santa hat before leaving, right?

Right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I mean, we just had one of the most wholesome-looking yuri VNs ever banned by Steam as potential child porn. An all-ages, light romance that teaches people Esperanto FFS.

From what people on Twitter said, it could because of a bath scene, and that would technically make a proper reason for the ban, no matter how short compared to the whole story this scene is. Ironically, it makes a pretty good example of how deeply rooted the themes of underage sexuality are in this medium if even this "wholesome-looking yuri VN" has something so questionable.

Just my two cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

From what people on Twitter said, it could because of a bath scene, and that would technically make a proper reason for the ban, no matter how short compared to the whole story this scene is. Ironically, it makes a pretty good example of how deeply rooted the themes of underage sexuality are in this medium if even this "wholesome-looking yuri VN" has something so questionable.

Just my two cents.

Well, not really, even by the stricter standards? I don't think it's a sex scene and as it's an exlusively all-ages game, it doesn't show any of the crucial parts for sure. Unless I'm missing something major, it's a clear overreaction on Valve's part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

From what people on Twitter said, it could because of a bath scene, and that would technically make a proper reason for the ban, no matter how short compared to the whole story this scene is. Ironically, it makes a pretty good example of how deeply rooted the themes of underage sexuality are in this medium if even this "wholesome-looking yuri VN" has something so questionable.

Just my two cents.

I think it just has more to do with japanese culture and bathing in general. Bathing usually in hot water seem to be quite common in japan atleast based on how it is portrayed in otaku media, so I think it says more about how nudity is seen in the west (well parts of the west like the US) always being considered sexual regardless of context. Also while I say nudety, the scene in question does censor out any potentially problematic areas. As for examples of bath scenes I would assume things like bath scenes in Sailor Moon does not atempt to sexualize her, I haven't seen Salilor Moon but I would assume not. Also in anime there are lots of bath scenes with male characters in series that aren't trying to apeal to women. So in conclution I think lots of these types of scenes are never intended to be sexualized and that people with different standards which regard nudety whether censored or not who view it as sexual regardless of situation are the ones at fault for taking it this way.

Edited by bakauchuujin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Well, not really, even by the stricter standards? I don't think it's a sex scene and as it's an exlusively all-ages game, it doesn't show any of the crucial parts for sure. Unless I'm missing something major, it's a clear overreaction on Valve's part.

There is one questionable part in that Ruka decides to wash all of Rin, including the front, despite Rin strongly trying to signal that she'd rather do it herself. It's not entirely clear if this is due to Ruka not caring or that it didn't come across due to language difficulties, but probably Ruka could tell. This is all in text / voice but not illustrated in any way. It's not particularly extreme in any way nor focused on for a long period of time, but if you were really trying to damn the work, you could consider this to basically be groping. The actual CG has plenty of censor steam, but you could of course argue that you shouldn't be putting that kind of scene in at all because even an ounce of underage sexuality is bad.

Meanwhile in the land of sensible, Sweden, a critically acclaimed movie with two teenage girls (Agnes is 16, I guess it's possible Elin is 18 but idk about that) has sex scenes and everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_Me_Love_(film). (I recommend the movie to anyone into lesbian relationships, it's pretty good)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/15/2019 at 3:37 PM, Funyarinpa said:

I've seen no self reflection or serious discussion of this, I don't think I've seen anyone seriously reflect on the extremity of pornography that is allowed to condone here.

5 hours ago, Thyndd said:

Well, in defense of OP, it's very difficult to have a real discussion about the points he brings up when it's the mods who say that you are not allowed to discuss them

Just wanted to reiterate this.  I tried to have this discussion back in the day.  I was shut down.  Reflection was obviously not the priority at the time.

Though it doesn't seem to me like you want to "reflect" or have a "discussion".  You want others to agree with you.  You want those who disagree to be marginalized.  And you're leaving because this isn't a battle--what else is it?--you think you can win.  Yet here you are, continuing the fight even when you decided that your battle is over.

If you want to talk only with people who agree with you, then create a private Discord channel and invite your friends.  It'll be a lot less stressful--and probably a lot less interesting.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreeing with Sanah. Discussion with OP at this point is irrelevant, because they don't listen to differing opinions. Confine yourself with likeminded friends and live in a bubble while the real adults keep discussing what they wish to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God help us. When in the world did even the otaku community get corrupted by the influence of political and cultural activist, who not only see issue with fellow community member's political beliefs but also seek to bring their political correction into the mix. The fact that Funyarinpa sees issues with another's fetish is simply put outrages, as if it’s anyone's business what another finds sexy, and so far, as I can tell it’s great that he is leaving. The Otaku community isn't home to these activists and never has been; and if one wants to join the community they can leave their ideals at the door and watch some anime or visual novels. It’s not a question of Right or Left either, our community is a place where all otaku should be able to come together to enjoy the medium. If you dislike homosexuality, rape, NTR, loli, futa, vanilla, incest, or anything else just say you don't like that genre and stay away. Those of us who like those things don't need you attacking us, as I've said before it’s not your business what I find sexy. Lastly, the fact that some people find topics offensive is of no concern, there will always be people who say that something's offensive and those people can go buy some diapers if they want to cry.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Zakamutt said:

Meanwhile in the land of sensible, Sweden, a critically acclaimed movie with two teenage girls (Agnes is 16, I guess it's possible Elin is 18 but idk about that) has sex scenes and everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_Me_Love_(film). (I recommend the movie to anyone into lesbian relationships, it's pretty good)

Well, that was 20 years ago, I wonder how would it play out now. :>

25 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Just wanted to reiterate this.  I tried to have this discussion back in the day.  I was shut down.  Reflection was obviously not the priority at the time.

Just out of curiosity, when was "back in the day"? Who killed the discussion (the most)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Just out of curiosity, when was "back in the day"? Who killed the discussion (the most)?

Back in the day when Fuwa banned discussions of loli content--provoked by a thread I created.  You can read my allegory of that affair, along with a link to what's left of the discussion, in the FuwaHistory thread.  Essentially, Tay himself stepped in and decided that the discussion was over.  Threats of reporting Fuwanovel to Interpol may or may not have been involved.

Edited by sanahtlig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×