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I'm leaving Fuwanovel, because I'm starting to realize that this community and the VN community at large has hurt me.


Funyarinpa

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51 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Just wanted to reiterate this.  I tried to have this discussion back in the day.  I was shut down.  Reflection was obviously not the priority at the time.

Though it doesn't seem to me like you want to "reflect" or have a "discussion".  You want others to agree with you.  You want those who disagree to be marginalized.  And you're leaving because this isn't a battle--what else is it?--you think you can win.  Yet here you are, continuing the fight even when you decided that your battle is over.

If you want to talk only with people who agree with you, then create a private Discord channel and invite your friends.  It'll be a lot less stressful--and probably a lot less interesting.

 

 

43 minutes ago, EroHataVNI said:

Agreeing with Sanah. Discussion with OP at this point is irrelevant, because they don't listen to differing opinions. Confine yourself with likeminded friends and live in a bubble while the real adults keep discussing what they wish to.

 

Edited by nenesya
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3 minutes ago, nenesya said:

But honestly, aren't you guys also the same? I feel like if I had a chat between either of you about loli content, for example, you wouldn't listening to different opinions much.

First of all, Hata is not me.  Second, the discussion of the subject is literally forbidden here.  I can talk in generalities about it, but what's the point?  The "serious discussion" the OP claims to want simply can't happen here.  The End.

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Just now, sanahtlig said:

First of all, Hata is not me.  Second, the discussion of the subject is literally forbidden here.  I can talk in generalities about it, but what's the point?  The "serious discussion" the OP claims to want simply can't happen here.  The End.

Well, it's not like loli stuff is the only thing OP was talking about and that's the sole topic that even got banned AFAIK. :amane:

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On 6/16/2019 at 2:57 PM, Dreamysyu said:

According to whois the IP is US based, so probably yes.

And so I hold my claim that international law is unconstitutional.  

 

On 6/16/2019 at 3:03 PM, Plk_Lesiak said:

Well, it's not like loli stuff is the only thing OP was talking about and that's the sole topic that even got banned AFAIK. :amane:

Loli is banned? Why so? Who care about some's love of loli or lack thereof?

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13 minutes ago, The Guilty King of Incest said:

Loli is banned? Why so? Who care about some's love of loli or lack thereof?

I was not there during 2015 when all this shit went down, but as far as I can tell, it seems like just as a preventive measure all lolicon content and discussion thereof was banned. 

So yeah, not only you can not post lolis, you cannot talk about it either :makina: Though we are technically talking about it now and this thread is not closed yet, so it seems we do have some leeway as long as things don't get too heated.

21 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Well, it's not like loli stuff is the only thing OP was talking about and that's the sole topic that even got banned AFAIK. :amane:

Well, to be honest the same thing that has been said (or at least, that I've personally said) about lolicon content applies to sexual violent content, the other point of conflict OP made. Heck, even the whole 'but there's Trump supporters" issue has been discussed. So I don't think that's the only topic that's been addressed.

Edited by Thyndd
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22 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Well, to be honest the same thing that has been said (or at least, that I've personally said) about lolicon content applies to sexual violent content, the other point of conflict OP made. Heck, even the whole 'but there's Trump supporters" issue has been discussed. So I don't think that's the only topic that's been addressed.

Yeah, but I've been referring to Sanahtlig's claim that discussion is forbidden. We (vaguely) can't discuss lolis specifically, but that's not really the main thing that prevented Funya's points from starting a legitimate discussion, as he placed lolis among broader spectrum of objectionable content we can very much talk about. The problem is that his rhetoric itself derailed any possibility of having a conversation, while people most likely to respond to him have views so directly opposed to his that it was already most likely to devolve into a futile flamewar. I hardly even see how "but admins won't let us talk" argument fits into this, unless we refer to overzealous post hiding. :P

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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4 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Yeah, but I've been referring to Sanahtlig's claim that discussion is forbidden. We (vaguely) can't discuss lolis specifically, but that's not really the main thing that prevented Funya's points from starting a legitimate discussion, as he placed lolis among broader spectrum of objectionable content we can very much talk about. The problem is that his rhetoric itself derailed any possibility of having a conversation, while people most likely to respond to him have views so directly opposed to his that it was already most likely to devolve into a futile flamewar. I hardly even see how "but admins won't let us talk" argument fits into this, unless we refer to overzealous post hiding. :P

Ah... yeah, I get what you mean. As you can probably tell, I have views diametrically opposed to his, but really, I'm up for discussion as long as the person in question shows that he's interested in having a discussion and not just desperately seeking agreement. When all your claims come down to "this is wrong, if you like this you are a bad person, and if you don't think like that you are so as well", well, it's difficult to not be annoyed by that behavior, if you ask me, as much as I try to stay collected.

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6 minutes ago, The Guilty King of Incest said:

Wouldn't see why. 

I was partially joking. But really, I'd not wish on anyone having to use the "it's unconstitutional" argument when dealing with your hosting service dropping you. Or in court. I'm really not sure how the federal law on child pornography looks like, as I've only studied examples of European and international ones, but if major companies like Valve, having all the money in the world for lawyers, are scared to publish anything that could be considered child porn, I wouldn't risk it running a niche site either.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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Eh, I can't blame Fuwa either. For the content ban, that is, there's no excuse to forbid actually talking about loli stuff. 

There's honestly no need to risk it. People can go get their lolis elsewhere.

Though, since it seems like the discussion ban has been somewhat lifted, I'll just say that it'll always strike me as really bizarre that child pornography laws even applies to lolicon. Why, you might ask? Well, because in lolicon there's no child :wahaha:

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4 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I was partially joking. But really, I'd not wish on anyone having to use the "it's unconstitutional" argument when dealing with your hosting service dropping you. Or in court. I'm really not sure how the federal law on child pornography looks like, as I've only studied examples of European and international ones, but if major companies like Valve, having all the money in the world for lawyers, are scared to publish anything that could be considered child porn, I wouldn't risk it running a niche site either.

The topic loli itself isn't of any importance as far as the unconstitutional argument goes, rather its merely a matter of principle and sovereignty. For just as the US threatened to retaliate against the International Criminal Court if it sought to bring charges of war crimes against the US or its people; under the argument that the US Constitution is supreme and international laws that seek to supersede it is both unconstitutional and a threat to our national sovereignty. Lastly, you seem to forget the power of non-legal maneuvers like boycotts and the fact that those companies aren't just in the US (Meaning subject to playing with foreign courts.)

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43 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Yeah, but I've been referring to Sanahtlig's claim that discussion is forbidden.

I responded to a particular point of the OP's, taken from a section of his post dedicated to lolicon--discussion of which is indeed forbidden.  Each of my responses after that was on the same subject.  If you want to talk in generalities or about related topics, go ahead.

Edited by sanahtlig
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23 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Eh, I can't blame Fuwa either. For the content ban, that is, there's no excuse to forbid actually talking about loli stuff. 

There's honestly no need to risk it. People can go get their lolis elsewhere.

Though, since it seems like the discussion ban has been somewhat lifted, I'll just say that it'll always strike me as really bizarre that child pornography laws even applies to lolicon. Why, you might ask? Well, because in lolicon there's no child :wahaha:

I know that the thirst step that led into this was banning "manipulated" child porn, that is manips (photoshoping children into porn scenes) and real child abuse material that was heavily processed, basically to not leave any loopholes that would let paedophiles circumvent the law. The fully-fictional representation ban is much more problematic, but I imagine it came mostly from the same place - making it easier to prosecute owners and distributors of child porn. I don't imagine its broader consequences, like the absurd limitations it brings on fiction (notice that is bans any depiction with underage characters and that threshold is pretty much universally 18, so you often can't portray fictional sex with characters over the age of consent...) were even considered by people that crafted these laws. It's also not like the general public would care about a bunch of weebs or fan fiction writers. Legally and public-image-wise we're at a huge disadvantage here so as much as I have problems with how anti child porn laws are constructed, I'm amazed how much people in the community don't see the need to tread carefully on this. Mostly they are underinformed on the legal side of the issue, but the rest should be pretty clear even for them...

18 minutes ago, The Guilty King of Incest said:

The topic loli itself isn't of any importance as far as the unconstitutional argument goes, rather its merely a matter of principle and sovereignty. For just as the US threatened to retaliate against the International Criminal Court if it sought to bring charges of war crimes against the US or its people; under the argument that the US Constitution is supreme and international laws that seek to supersede it is both unconstitutional and a threat to our national sovereignty. Lastly, you seem to forget the power of non-legal maneuvers like boycotts and the fact that those companies aren't just in the US (Meaning subject to playing with foreign courts.)

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you're right on principle. I won't stop you from testing it thoroughly on your own site. ^^

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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Just now, Plk_Lesiak said:

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you're right on principle. I won't stop you from testing it thoroughly on your own site. ^^

I merely hope to one day help the cause by becoming a federal judge and ruling unconstitutional.

By the way you should join the Federalist Society so as to help us by participating in the legal revolution.

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8 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I know that the thirst step that led into this was banning "manipulated" child porn, that is manips (photoshoping children into porn scenes) and real child abuse material that was heavily processed, basically to not leave any loopholes that would let paedophiles circumvent the law. The fully-fictional representation ban is much more problematic, but I imagine it came mostly from the same place - making it easier to prosecute owners and distributors of child porn. I don't imagine its broader consequences, like the absurd limitations it brings on fiction (notice that the legal limit is pretty much universally 18, so you often can't portray fictional sex with characters over the age of consent...) were even considered by people that crafted these laws. It's also not like the general public would care about a bunch of weebs or fan fiction writers. Legally and public-image-wise we're at a huge disadvantage here so as much as I have problems with how anti child porn laws are constructed, I'm amazed how much people in the community don't see the need to tread carefully on this. Mostly they are underinformed on the legal side of the issue, but the rest should be pretty clear even for them...

And hence the disclaimer you see in many VNs, assuring that "All characters in this work are over 18 yo" when they take place in a high-school setting. I mean, it's technically not impossible, if they are all bad students and have repeated 1 or 2 years :makina:

But that just goes to show how absurd it can get. A written character, or a drawing, for that matter, does no have age. Or rather, it has the age you or the author wants to imagine it has. 

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It's kinda weird how people are still talking about keeping minor out of an internet forum, because everyone knows it's just straight up impossible to do so, unless people now have to upload their passport along with their registration form or something like that...

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3 minutes ago, Satsuki said:

It's kinda weird how people are still talking about keeping minor out of an internet forum, because everyone knows it's just straight up impossible to do so, unless people now have to upload their passport along with their registration form or something like that...

Here goes my take on the matter: it's as impossible as unnecessary. It's obviously impossible due to the times we live in, in which we have any kind of information available anytime.

It's unnecessary because a good education and parenting should provide the minor enough tools to tell apart the good information from the bad one. And in this case, reality from fiction.

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20 minutes ago, Satsuki said:

It's kinda weird how people are still talking about keeping minor out of an internet forum, because everyone knows it's just straight up impossible to do so, unless people now have to upload their passport along with their registration form or something like that...

Well, you can't keep the determined ones out, but you can keep some basic precautions. Which is more than we're doing now... 

23 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

And hence the disclaimer you see in many VNs, assuring that "All characters in this work are over 18 yo" when they take place in a high-school setting. I mean, it's technically not impossible, if they are all bad students and have repeated 1 or 2 years :makina:

But that just goes to show how absurd it can get. A written character, or a drawing, for that matter, does no have age. Or rather, it has the age you or the author wants to imagine it has. 

Or with characters that are literal middle schoolers. That's always fun to see. :P

But, the issue is, law is usually quite a rough instrument. Even the bans on "real" child porn create absurdities, as a teen that makes a nude selfie and sends it to someone literally committing a felony of child porn production and distribution in some countries. At the same time, the level of emotion around this issue is so high that it's pretty much inconceivable for anyone to lax these laws for something as "secondary" as freedom of artistic expression. Try to poll average people on whether it would be justified to burn all otaku media to not enable pedophiles... We could easily get some very sad results, espetially if we get the press and TV news to demagogue on the issue a bit. :> And whether we like lolicon or not, we're all pretty much on the same thin ice, with some people happily jumping around trying to crash the surface. :P

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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3 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Or with characters that are literal middle schoolers. That's always fun to see. :P

But, the issue is, law is usually quite a rough instrument. Even the bans on "real" child porn create absurdities, as a teen that makes a nude selfie and sends it to someone literally commits a felony of child porn production and distribution in some countries. But at the same time, the level of emotion around this issue is so high that it's pretty much inconceivable for anyone to lax these laws for something as "secondary" as freedom of artistic expression. Try to poll average people on whether it would be justified to burn all otaku media to not enable pedophiles... We could easily get some very sad results, espetially if we get the media to demagogue on the issue a bit. :> And whether we like lolicon or not, we're all pretty much on the same thin ice, with some people happily jumping around trying to crash the surface. :P

And you see, that's why I'm so concerned and show so much involvement in this topic. A priori one could think that I shouldn't care, since I'm not someone who consumes lolicon, fictional rape or any other stuff aside from the most vanilla, romantic stuff out there. That's my fetish, if you wanna call it that way :amane: But the thing is, this is a very slippery slope. I think we are finally getting over the whole "violent games breed murderers and mass shooters" bullshit, except for the most conservative sectors, but the stigma on the otaku culture is as pervasive as ever. 

Which brings me to the difference I think you made (was it you?) about the two. I wanted to comment on it earlier but something came up and it completely went over my head later. You (or someone else, whatever :leecher:) said something along the lines of "the difference between violent video games and lolicon/rape content is that in video games people don't actually enjoy the act of murdering per se, while the whole point of iffy sexual content is the gratification you get by it being iffy". Which apparently seems like a sound argument... but I think it's not. Works that include that 'iffy' sexual content do so for a whole arrangement of different reasons. In many of them the intention is to cause shock value, disgust, and yes, in some cases, to appeal to those people who actually get sexual gratification with that fictional content (and mind you, I don't think there's anything wrong with that). The point is, people who don't get off to that kind of content will not be searching after works whose only point is that content. I don't enjoy fictional rape, and really, no matter how much exposure I get to Euphoria and similar VNs, I won't ever come to like it. That's what taste is like, and that's what a fetish is like as well. Keeping this in mind, yes, I will stand by the claim that both arguments, the violent video games make people violent, and lolicon content makes people child molesters, are exactly the same in essence.

Some people who get satisfaction by killing people in video games might also enjoy killing people in real life. Yes, there are messed up people out there, and it has nothing to do with video games. Fortunately though, most people who enjoy seeing characters in a screen suffer would not actually enjoy it with an actual living being. Just like that, I know for a fact that most lolicon consumers would never look at a real child in that way. One of my favorite replies to this ever is one comment I read about someone accusing a lolicon fan of being a pedophile. His response? "What? I hate children. They are disgusting." :wahaha:

But ok, let's say that there's some correlation. I think it's obvious that lolicon doesn't make pedophiles just like playing Euphoria didn't make me a rapist, but let's say that all lolicon were actually pedophiles. So what? You cannot stop people's thoughts, you know. What if that person is an artist, draws lolis and jerks off to them? :makina: That's why it's absurd to go thought policing. Real wrongdoings are things that happen in the real world, and everything else is just fighting a lost battle, at least until it's technologically possible to read people's thoughts and sentence them for that. That's a very scary idea.

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28 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Which brings me to the difference I think you made (was it you?) about the two.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking about Funya's post. I only argued that I don't completely agree they're similar, as I think sexual stuff influences us on a slightly deeper level and, on average, have more of an effect on our lives and behaviour than most other things we get from media. It should be quite easy to substitute violent video game with some other entertainment in all but most extreme cases, but if you develop a strong sexual fetish...

But even that is us talking about those borderline cases that no one really knows the actual scale of? In general, you don't need to convince me of this stuff, even if I'd be more wary of the influence extreme porn has on people, I don't think the proofs of that influence are solid enough to justify bans, especially considering how poorly those work most of the time. The real challenge is spreading this awereness to the sea of normies that surround us, with torches and pitchforks ready at slightest sign of "peadophilia". I don't think that will happen any time soon and we as VN fans have to take that into account, whether we like it or not. :>

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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2 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I think you're thinking about Funya's post. I only argued that I don't completely agree they're similar, as I think sexual stuff influences us on a slightly deeper level and, on average, have more of an effect on our lives and behaviour than most other things we get from media. It should be quite easy to substitute violent video game with some other entertainment in all but most extrene cases, but if you develop a strong sexual fetish...

The thing is, can you really develop a sexual fetish by being exposed to it? I feel like this is chain has just way too many dubious steps:

Exposure of fetish in fiction->getting aroused by that fetish in a fictional setting->getting aroused by that fetish in real life->commiting a crime

I can only logically connect the last two, and even that's only in some cases, as even people who actually fantasize about commiting crimes in real life wouldn't actually do it for several reasons: empathy for real people's suffering, fear towards the law, fear of being ostracized by society...

And honestly, connecting the first three together just seems impossible for me. I could be exposed to all the loli rape in the land of the rising sun and I still wouldn't enjoy it in the least. Do you think you would? 

12 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

In general, you don't need to convince me of this stuff, even if I'd be more wary of the influence extreme porn has on people, I don't think the proofs of that influence are solid enough to justify bans, especially considering how poorly those work most of the time. The real challenge is spreading this awereness to the sea of normies that surround us, with torches and pitchforks ready at slightest sign of "peadophilia". I don't think that will happen any time soon and we as VN fans have to take that into account, whether we like it or not. :>

Yeah I know. I'm not really trying to convince you of anything :P It's just that I know we think somewhat differently and I'm trying to gently prod you to find a point of disagreement in order see if my opinion is biased in some way I wasn't aware of.

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I've been playing VNs for 20 years now and am the oldest active member on the forum. Most people consider my tastes boring despite that since I generally stick to moege and charage, and fairly vanilla in my taste spectrum for H content as well. I have this in my fan translator registration post:

On 17/08/2015 at 3:07 PM, ittaku said:

7) Conditions* (any additional conditions, under which you will or won't work): Lots of conditions, see below.

Absolutely no rape, torture, humiliation, disgrace, loli, dark themes, violence. Don't like utsuge nor excessive drama either.

Note the exclusion of a lot of thematic material which the OP found adversely affected him. I've simply learnt to avoid any games with them in them, avoided discussing such games on the forum, avoided discussing the thematic material on the forum, and politely refused to translate anything with those in them.  If I were to allow my distaste of those to alter my ability to enjoy playing VNs or discussing the aspects I do enjoy about VNs on this forum and elsewhere, I would be missing out on something I derive great pleasure from. I do, however, have great objection to most forms of censorship which is why I'm happy to simply tolerate its existence but don't feel obliged to debate the issues. I also do not believe the existence of such thematic material has changed my value system either, but I was not 15 when I started playing VNs, so I cannot say outright that it would not have affected me so at the time. Nonetheless, I think you're doing yourself a disservice -- if it's a medium and community you otherwise enjoy -- to break off completely. You've developed your own value system and now it's time to apply it without feeling guilt or remorse about it, but to work with the aspects you still enjoy. If your love of the art form has disappeared entirely, then that's a totally different issue, but that doesn't seem to be the issue so much as guilt from thematic material that is often associated with the art form. If you feel you are unable to dissociate the two then that's your decision.

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