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Are japanese dubs really good?


Silvz

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Hey, fuwans~ It's been a long time since I have created a new thread. This topic has been in my mind for a few dayys, and I'd like to know what you think about it.

Basically, a lot of people praise japanese dubs in their anime/games while bashing english dubbing. Me myself, although I don't hate non-japanese dubs, I prefer japanese ones because I got used to having them in the anime I watch.

Since I know both Portuguese and English well, I can evaluate how these two dubs are, but I have no clue when it comes to japanese voice acting. So, my question is: are japanese dubs really good, and if so/not, why? Is there an example of bad jap voice acting?
 

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I think overall the voice acting level is significantly higher on average in JP subs, however there are some great english performances.

Growing up used to watching a language's dub certainly makes it easier to watch. If you listen to something enough, you just recognize it as "that", without judging it. And that familiarity is a positive reaction, usually. When we complain that EN cutesy voices sound bad, there is some level of bias. Since we're used to JP cutesy voices, and we hear English people talk all the time, but Japanese people not so much.

My usual gripe is that their delivery isn't expressive enough and they don't have the breadth to emphasize all these different situations. Besides those, I guess the most common culprit for a bad dub is a bad script. A good English performance really needs a good English script -- not the accuracy of the TL so much, but whether those lines can be naturally acted out in the scene. Unnatural English sounds REALLY bad.

Lastly, the Japanese have mastered the art of doing KAWAII voices. There are so many variations, and they still manage to come across clear even when talking fast or using shrill tones. The japanese language might actually help here -- there are so many ways to customize a character's speaking patterns (old-fashioned, personal quirks, etc.). It probably can be done in English too, but that level of adaptation/script-writing is rare, I imagine. There is also little need to make someone sound peculiar, when simply doing a good VA will serve the purpose.

Curious what people think about a dub like Sunako from Shiki.

Spoiler

English:

Japanese:

 

 

Edited by Chronopolis
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Well since I grew up watching dubbed anime there are a few shows I'd only ever want to see dubbed like Digimon, Yu Yu Hakusho, Dragon Ball Z, and like I dunno Samurai Champloo

 

If I watched the original voiced lines I probably would find them quite unnatural 

I think the problem with eng dubs is that the pool of talented voice actors is significantly lower than that of jp voice actors so you get a hear a lot of the same voices for multiple shows.

Also I think that jp voice actors are better at the cutesy voices and emotionless/reserved voices than their english counterparts 

As far as bad jp acting goes I guess whenever it just feels very vacant and listless or when it is so overwrought and over the top melodramatic that you can't help but scoff at it.

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yes, and its not just fanboying for the japanese version. there are english dub versions taht are on the same level or better than japanese dubs such as ghost stories, golden boy, full metal alchemist brotherhood. BUT the reason japanese dubs are better is because there is an entire industry surrounding it. voice acting is huge in japan with video games, anime, singing sometimes where a role in a hentai could be used as a starting point for some big name voice actor.

 

these actors need to be the top of their game and deliver the best performance possible while it seems like in america we're having a hard time filling a quota.

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If we're talking actual Japanese dubs of western stuff, they can be surprisingly good. I started watching the Japanese dub of Friends as a joke, but actually found myself enjoying the Japanese voice cast quite a lot. The localization for the jokes were on point, too. Pretty good stuff. Japanese Chandler is something else, lol.

 

Japanese voice work in anime/ VNs etc tends to be very high quality. This comes from it just being a much bigger market over there, so there's higher expecations for the VAs, as opposed to the west, where you kind of take what you get. Even amateur VAs in Japan can be pretty darn amazing, because they have much more competition, and a much harder time getting jobs compared to the western scene, so they kind of have to be good to even be considered. I'm amazed at how many incredibly skilled VAs do really "cheap" doujin work, just to get their names out there.

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5 hours ago, mitchhamilton said:

yes, and its not just fanboying for the japanese version.

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread because I don't know Japanese and therefore can't judge Japanese voice actors. I'd recommend the same to you and to anybody else commenting without actual knowledge of the language.

It's okay to enjoy hearing Japanese voice actors, even if that does smack somewhat of fetishism, but I just don't think people like you and I are really in a position to judge. I more or less agree with Kastel's take on this one:

 

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1 hour ago, Fred the Barber said:

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread because I don't know Japanese and therefore can't judge Japanese voice actors. I'd recommend the same to you and to anybody else commenting without actual knowledge of the language.

Really now? I'm sure there are nuances and aspects of it that will escape you without knowing the language and its natural variants, but you can't have a valid opinion if you don't know it? Maybe you also need to be a native speaker or even a seiyuu yourself, otherwise you don't have a full understanding of the craft? I'm pretty sure there's tons of things that come into VA work that has little to do with exact meaning of what is said. I fail to see how knowing the language would change things so fundamentally you can't have a conversation without it.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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3 hours ago, Fred the Barber said:

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread because I don't know Japanese and therefore can't judge Japanese voice actors. I'd recommend the same to you and to anybody else commenting without actual knowledge of the language.

It's okay to enjoy hearing Japanese voice actors, even if that does smack somewhat of fetishism, but I just don't think people like you and I are really in a position to judge. I more or less agree with Kastel's take on this one:

 

why take one sentence from my post? i do go on to explain why its not just fanboying over japanese dub. and, i do know enough of the japanese language and how they speak to have an opinion. no, im not a native speaker or a translator for the language but that doesnt mean i know nothing about what im talking about.

 

i wouldnt mind if you presented something that went against anything i said but you basically just say "you cant have an opinion on the matter." while ignoring everything else i said.

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3 hours ago, Fred the Barber said:

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread because I don't know Japanese and therefore can't judge Japanese voice actors. I'd recommend the same to you and to anybody else commenting without actual knowledge of the language.

It's okay to enjoy hearing Japanese voice actors, even if that does smack somewhat of fetishism, but I just don't think people like you and I are really in a position to judge. I more or less agree with Kastel's take on this one:

 

I have to say I agree. While you can probably pick up on certain things that sound obviously awkward or strange in a language you don't speak, or the emotion in someone's voice etc, not knowing how stuff is supposed to sound like in that language certainly makes it hard to gauge whether or not a VA is good or bad.

I personally love the sound of Korean, for instance, but don't speak a word, so I wouldn't feel comfortable gauging the skill of a Korean VA. For all I know, they aren't even pronouncing the words right! Or maybe they are doing it wrong or different on purpose to make a joke that went over my head. It's just really hard to know these things without knowing the language.

 

This reminds me of something that happened a few months ago. Studio FOW, (a western indie H animation studio,) made a set of animated H movies with Japanese VAs, who I thought did a fantastic job. Really good stuff. But, a lot of the western fans I spoke to who watched it complained a lot about one thing: the voice acting. They said it sounded weird and off. Makes sense I guess, since they have no idea what is being said, (and a lot of it is choked halfway between moans, due to it being H, lol.) But, as someone who speaks the language I have to say, that voice acting was just objectively good.

I found it kind of interesting how what I liked the most in the movies is what others liked the least. And, if those people were asked about the quality of the voice acting, they most likely would say it was bad. (Even though it wasn't!)

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Well, personally I like JP voice acting better if the characters are Japanese. It comes more natural to me, knowing that the characters are Japanese. Basically, it depends on the official language. If the VN official language is Japanese, then I prefer Japanese. If it is an OELVN, I prefer English. It's like...can you imagine watching Totally Spies with other language dubs? Not for me. (Okay, maybe as a kids I do watch Totally Spies in other language dubs but when I grew up and rewatch it again, it does feel weird to not hearing English language on them.)

 

Of course, the voice actor/actress' skills is one of the most important factors too. Personally, I've never heard old man's voice and loli's voice in English dubs that is good. 

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5 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Really now? I'm sure there are nuances and aspects of it that will escape you without knowing the language and its natural variants, but you can't have a valid opinion if you don't know it? Maybe you also need to be a native speaker or even a seiyuu yourself, otherwise you don't have a full understanding of the craft? I'm pretty sure there's tons of things that come into VA work that has little to do with exact meaning of what is said. I fail to see how knowing the language would change things so fundamentally you can't have a conversation without it.

'you can't have a valid opinion' is a bit strong, but that does depend on what 'valid' means. The less you know about a subject, the less your opinion on such a subject is 'valid'. Or, more specifically, more limited the areas in which you can judge it by.

Your opinion on whether you like the voice, or believe it fits the character, or whether the volume fits, or if the pauses in speech fit, or such factors that can be considered even without knowing the language, is worth something. But it is not enough to judge the voice acting itself, as there are many other aspects to consider.

What words they are stressing, and where. Why that pause was made where it was. What words or sentences had a higher or lower volume specifically, as well as analysing the why. All this is part of analysing 'voice acting' too, and all this is missed just by not knowing how the language is used normally (note the 'normally'. Even just knowing the words and what they mean is not enough to analyse all that I've mentioned here).

Much like I just mentioned a number of aspects that can be analysed when you're at a native level in a language, there's many more aspects that can only be judged when you know the target language and you're a voice actor*.

You can see many different levels of knowledge about a subject, which can be broadly categorized into a few different groups. None of these are invalid, but they are judging off of different factors and premises, and have therefore a much higher tendency to reach very distinct conclusions. That is, two people who don't know the language are more likely to share certain opinions on the subject than one who knows the language and one who doesn't.
And everything that I have just mentioned is without even bringing up personal biases. Those will always be part of a person's judgement and analyses.

 

Consider the following video:

https://youtu.be/3p10knivMRg

It is, for instance, completely impossible for one to judge whether he's placing emphasis on the correct words and the like, but you can still form an opinion on the voice or the fact that he placed emphasis at all!

 

So, ultimately, I am only bringing all this up because the OP is looking for opinions of people at the level of knowing the language, who are able to judge many more aspects than people such as I. I don't disagree that everyone is entitled to an opinion (whether it is one worth sharing is another matter entirely and not the subject here), but they are not at the same level -- and by that I mean that they are not necessarily comparable -- because they are simply judging by many different factors. And in this case we're looking for those who know the language, not the many others.

 

*An example that is often brought up, as you did (in other words), is the old "If you want to criticise then do better!". It is evident that one is able to criticise things that you are not yourself capable of doing. If my car breaks down the day after going to the mechanic I can obviously criticise the mechanic. This is because as a car driver I am judging the car on its function and usability. "Does it do what it is meant to do?". A mechanic could analyse other aspects not visible to me.
A game with an incredibly advanced A.I. that is capable of counteracting any player will impress A.I. developers, but will not impress players because a game with good A.I. that opposes the player is not actually enjoyable to players.

So the question of 'Is my opinion valid?'? Depends on the context.
Generally speaking, you will care for opinions of people on the same level as you or higher, because they will share your priorities "Is it nice to listen to?" or introduce new concepts foreign to you "He's emphasising every 'ssu' which means x and y".
On the opposite side of the spectrum, people from higher levels will dismiss the opinions of the people on lower levels due to their limited understanding of a craft. A familiar situation is the native English readers and/or well-read English readers dismissing and disagreeing with the opinions on translation of the English Second Language readers who favour a 'word for word' approach to translation to the detriment on the overall language used in the translation.

Fred in this thread has looked at those who know much more than he about the Japanese language, and concluded that he can't really 'judge' it. At least at a level relevant to the OP. I agree. I can't, either.

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1 hour ago, Mr Poltroon said:

A familiar situation is the native English readers and/or well-read English readers dismissing and disagreeing with the opinions on translation of the English Second Language readers who favour a 'word for word' approach to translation to the detriment on the overall language used in the translation.

1

Sorry for nitpicking, because there's obvious merit to your thought and it's true that I was mostly triggered by the absolute nature of Fred's statement. But I feel this is both strawmaning and an unfortunate comparison. Acting, both dubbing and live action, is a way more universal and intuitive craft than translation. Saying a layperson is not qualified to judge it to a reasonable degree, even through cultural barriers is like saying you can't judge a dish unless you're a trained chef, even if you ate 1000 different variants of it. Obviously, the more you know on the topic, the bigger the chance your opinion will be insightful and well-informed, but I don't think the OP asked for an academic dissertation on pronouncing "desu". There are general trends and differences between Japanese and English VA scenes that are much easier to grasp and pinpoint, and I think many people on this site has the experience with the medium and general knowledge to have an informed opinion on the matter. I'll respect the opinion of an expert more and he can give input that will be beyond average person's grasp, but I don't really see the reason to pretend these things are black magic that only the chosen ones are worthy of commenting on.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't have any strong opinions on the matter, apart from obvious observations on the scale and prestige of the seiyuu scene. But as a semi-active scholar it makes my blood boil a bit when this kind of elitist BS shows up, pre-emptively discouraging people from joining a legitimate conversation.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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43 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Sorry for nitpicking, because there's obvious merit to your thought and it's true that I was mostly triggered by the absolute nature of Fred's statement. But I feel this is both strawmaning and an unfortunate comparison. Acting, both dubbing and live action, is a way more universal and intuitive craft than translation. Saying a layperson is not qualified to judge it to a reasonable degree, even through cultural barriers is like saying you can't judge a dish unless you're a trained chef, even if you ate 1000 different variants of it. Obviously, the more you know on the topic, the bigger the chance your opinion will be insightful and well-informed, but I don't think the OP asked for an academic dissertation on pronouncing "desu". There are general trends and differences between Japanese and English VA scenes that are much easier to grasp and pinpoint, and I think many people on this site has the experience with the medium and general knowledge to have an informed opinion on the matter. I'll respect the opinion of an expert more and he can give input that will be beyond average person's grasp, but I don't really see the reason to pretend these things are black magic that only the chosen ones are worthy of commenting on.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't have any strong opinions on the matter, apart from obvious observations on the scale and prestige of the seiyuu scene. But as a semi-active scholar it makes my blood boil a bit when this kind of elitist BS shows up, pre-emptively discouraging people from joining a legitimate conversation.

Tbh, you need a high IQ to understand Fred's posts.

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While the difference was there even back in the nineties, we really started to see a gap in VA skill after the turn of the century, when the Japanese VA industry became so... industrialized that training classes for voice actors began to produce a certain baseline level of quality like clockwork.  At that point, we started to see fewer and fewer of the 'squeaky' VAs that were prevalent in the nineties and individual VAs began to be typecast completely the same way a lot of actors are here in the US.  I have only rarely seen an awkward VA moment in Japanese VNs or anime since the turn of the century, something that says more about the quality of the industry as a whole (both the voice-actors themselves and the directors who time how the voices are inserted and guide them on how they want the lines phrased and emphasized) than anything else I can think of in particular. 

For people who ask me which I prefer, I generally just shrug and say 'the original language' whether it is English or Japanese, but if you ask me which is more technically consistent, it is definitely the Japanese industry.  For better or worse, those in the Japanese VA industry have a higher base standard than the Western industry, where 'good enough is good enough' outside of blockbuster million-dollar material most of the time (such as AAA video games, shows, and movies).  That isn't to say that the English baseline for VA quality won't be dragged upward in the future or the Japanese downward, it is that so far, we have hovered in this same state for over ten years, which is a mark of priorities more than anything else.  VA's here in America are a more niche industry (the far lower amount of agencies catering to the training and production of voice-actors is one reason for this), with most of them either aiming for kids movies and shows or for the video game industry, leaving a large gap in talent in areas these don't cover.  This can lead to awkward moments in English dubs of anime and Japanese video games (though often I think that is the fault of the director rather than the VAs themselves, since it seems to be incorrect emphasis or mismatched lines), though there is a LOT less incidence of this than there was when I first became an otaku, lol. 

Edit: To clarify, I firmly believe that my preference for 'original language' will eventually be reduced to just that, a preference, at some point.  Right now it is still (to a point) backed up by the actual quality of the experience, but that isn't a state that will last forever.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the lack of an English-speaking version of Juurouta Kosugi is a huge negative... no one plays old men and narrators like he does.

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As for understanding the seiyuu as long as you have the subs it should be fine. Even though I understand that you can't really judge the seiyuu if you didn't understand the language, seeing that many anime did have subs should mitigated that reason a lot. Unless the translation is very different from what it said, then it could be a problem but so far there's almost no case of mistranslation in the subs from what I saw (I only saw mistranslation of the names in Star Twinkle PreCure). As for whether Japanese dubs is good or not, I would say that yeah they've been pretty good with constant regeneration even though some seiyuu did share the tone with each other, or at least that's what I hear (The example is Saori Hayami voice did resembled Mamiko Noto to a degree).

Edited by littleshogun
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i would like to add something to the argument of not being able to fully enjoy or have an opinion on a language youre not fluent in. what if the language they provided for your spoken language is just awful? is that better by default just because you cant understand the other language at all? it is the same argument as recommending someone something and saying "oh, you should probably watch it in french, its original language" and they tell you that you dont know what youre talking about because you dont know the language and they settle for the awful dubbbed version.

 

watching something with its original language is better like 90 percent of the time as there are also a lot going on behind the scenes that we dont take into account, such as directing, multiple takes, and in the case of animation sometimes theyll take actions the voice actor does and put it into the animation of the character theyre playing.

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