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Irotoridori Kickstarter by Sol Press Funded at over 85k


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21 hours ago, Fred the Barber said:

 I don't know why so many people are talking about how MangaGamer saved the day... probably literally every other English loc industry player helped this thing out more by advertising it earlier in the cycle. I'm honestly doubtful whether MG's 3-minutes-before-it-was-over tweet did anything at all, except apparently buy them a lot of adoration.

MangaGamer's aid was the most high profile and dramatic.  It was also the most recent.

Also, it probably wasn't as useless as you think.  The project succeeded by like three hundred and fifty bucks.  That's less than 10 people (at the $40 level).  MangaGamer has more than forty thousand followers.  If one percent of those followers saw that tweet in time to matter, that's 400 people.  If one fortieth of those who saw it actually clicked thru to Kickstarter, and hadn't pledged yet and did so (or upped an existing pledge because MG reminded them, whatever) then that would be enough to make a difference.

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6 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

Kickstarter is not a store. Kickstarter is for giving people money to make something happen, that otherwise wouldn't happen at all.

 

Yeah, of course. It's like when companies create stocks or obligations to expand their businesses and say to their investors: "buy whatever amount you feel appropriate and we'll repay you with respective amounts of satisfaction. Also, be sure to buy a lot, because otherwise, our business will fail and you'll never get that product you really want." I think in any area other than niche entertainment, this would be considered a particularly poor business, beside all other issues.

Well, I'm strawmaning on purpose, but I'm still deeply bothered by this kind of approach to crowdfunding. I think it can only be truly ethical if you treat your backers as investors, that will get some more or less tangible and proportional returns on their investment. Localisation Kickstarters often rely pretty much only on dedicated fans and a false sense of urgency. This is why I'm always more apprehensive about them then I am about original projects, which at least don't exploit the same kind of emotional attachment. Obviously, companies have all the right in the world to use them and sometimes going on without them would be overly risky on their part (because I don't believe it's that often "impossible" to go without crowdfunding), but it won't stop me from being slightly disgusted whenever a poorly-executed campaign encourages people to get themselves broke over a porn slideshow. And sure, no one is "forced" to do that, but that doesn't mean the process itself isn't manipulative and ethically questionable. :>

EDIT: And to be a bit more specific, I'm not really bashing on Sol Press here, because they do what they have to do to stay afloat. They're not a charity. But it would be most ethical thing to do and good business practice to cancel and remodel a campaign that was underperforming to this degree, while being well aware that the only way it could succeed from that point was by existing fans going over their limits. Like I've said, the "now or never" idea attached to many crowdfunding campaigns is rarely 100% true and I'm not convinced doing at least that much was beyond Sol Press' capabilities.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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13 hours ago, thelink1123 said:

I get that they are a business and must wait to make some decisions (for financial reasons) but their lack of transparency at the beginning of the kickstarter about the sequels and making their respective stretch goals astronomically high does not look good, honestly. I hope they understand that if they decide to not translate them it will seriously impact their standing with the VN community. 

I don't believe them going bankrupt would improve their standing with the VN community either. It's not a lack of transparency, they simply are not able to promise such a massive undertaking without a kickstarter, like pretty much anyone in this industry, most companies don't really look stable and the western market is a very unwelcoming place right now with all the random hateful regulations. A single ban of a major game on steam may be enough to cripple the whole business and KS provides at least a little bit of insurance. I hope. So I'm afraid that with a strict stance like yours noone would even attempt to localise massive projects like Irotoridori trilogy which would be the biggest shame. Right now the most important thing is not to threaten the publishers but for people to actually buy the first game to show that there's at least enough interest in the sequels for a further gamble. If the potential customers choose the "I won't buy it until you guarantee the full trilogy" option, I have a feeling that we will definitely never see the series completed.

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14 hours ago, thelink1123 said:

They should be saying in that update that they WILL be translated(or put it clearer in the update, not "we at Sol Press would like to see the entire trilogy translated", but "we will see the trilogy translated regardless of the funding that we as a company decide is the best option". ). Yeah, it's great to discuss a common worry among the backers and others who didn't end up backing, but if they leave the rest of the trilogy in limbo until the first title is completed or close to completion, there's going to be controversy if they decide to not do the sequels because of said funding issues if they arise.

I get that they are a business and must wait to make some decisions (for financial reasons) but their lack of transparency at the beginning of the kickstarter about the sequels and making their respective stretch goals astronomically high does not look good, honestly. I hope they understand that if they decide to not translate them it will seriously impact their standing with the VN community. 

I don't mean any of this condescendingly and I respect them as a company(Newton no ringo was amazing and I am glad they translated it) but they better tread lightly on these titles as it could be a ticking time bomb for their status in this community

(I know that announcing too early may have consequences for promising something that might not come to fruition at all, but they could reassure backers and the rest of the community that they will definitely translate them [and not wait to see the first title's sales] regardless of how the first title performs in terms of sales. Oh and I know they said that they would seek other funding methods but that really isn't putting anything in stone.)

Disclaimer: though yes I've done some contract work with Sol Press, I don't have any real insight into the financials. That said...

Presumably they won't say that the sequels WILL be translated because they literally don't know if they'll be able to afford it. The stretch goals may be "astronomically high", but they're what it will cost them to license and localize the game. They don't have $80k sitting around to throw after a game that people aren't willing to shell out that same amount for, and thus they'll have to wait to see if the first game is actually successful enough (read: makes a lot more money than what comes in from the Kickstarter) to justify doing the sequels. I certainly wouldn't expect any real confirmation at this point, because they can't actually commit to throwing that much non-existent money after the game.

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3 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

Also, it probably wasn't as useless as you think.  The project succeeded by like three hundred and fifty bucks.  That's less than 10 people (at the $40 level).  MangaGamer has more than forty thousand followers.  If one percent of those followers saw that tweet in time to matter, that's 400 people.  If one fortieth of those who saw it actually clicked thru to Kickstarter, and hadn't pledged yet and did so (or upped an existing pledge because MG reminded them, whatever) then that would be enough to make a difference.

It ended up only three hundred and fifty bucks over, but at a point it was I think it was over a thousand bucks over and I don't think they can lower it bellow the pledge limit once it has gone to the point of being funded.

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10 hours ago, novurdim said:

I don't believe them going bankrupt would improve their standing with the VN community either. It's not a lack of transparency, they simply are not able to promise such a massive undertaking without a kickstarter, like pretty much anyone in this industry, most companies don't really look stable and the western market is a very unwelcoming place right now with all the random hateful regulations. A single ban of a major game on steam may be enough to cripple the whole business and KS provides at least a little bit of insurance. I hope. So I'm afraid that with a strict stance like yours noone would even attempt to localise massive projects like Irotoridori trilogy which would be the biggest shame. Right now the most important thing is not to threaten the publishers but for people to actually buy the first game to show that there's at least enough interest in the sequels for a further gamble. If the potential customers choose the "I won't buy it until you guarantee the full trilogy" option, I have a feeling that we will definitely never see the series completed.

At the beginning, until they decided to say that they'll try to look for other methods to fund the translation of the sequels in the event that only the first game was funded, it looked like they were just going to do a one off translation and forget about the rest of the trilogy. That just didn't give off the best of vibes. 

Onto the other point about how my stance is "strict". I never said they had to promise they would be out in a timely manner, or that they would be funded for a while. I merely asked that they prove they are willing to to do whatever it takes to translate the trilogy and not leave it unfinished.(They snatched the license for the trilogy, so asking that they commit isn't too much). Yes, it's a HUGE financial risk, and yes, it could be dangerous for their own status if they fuck it up. I understand that the money issue may arise, but showing dedication to the backers and fans of the series may lead to increased sales for the company among other positive outcomes. 

My real point is, you shouldn't take on a series with sequels if you aren't willing or have no way to fund said complete series. Releasing only the first game with no plans for the sequels to be translated would be EXTREMELY bad PR. Yeah, that takes out some series from being translated or at least attempted, but it might keep some translation companies away from the controversy and or issues that arise with taking on a massive project like the Irotoridori trilogy. Imagine the backlash if a company decided to officially try to translate the fate series and only completed the "Fate" story and that's all they released, completely leaving out Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel? (Though, I do believe that they picked Irotoridori's license up a little early in their company's lifeline, considering most other games they had translated were not on this scale and as such were not huge financial burdens if they flop in sales after release.)

And on the last point you made about "buying the first game to encourage the sequels being translated". With such titles as Hapymaher and D.C. III(I know there were a ton of issues with licensing and stuff but my point still stands) not getting their STORY-BASED fandiscs translated despite the story being left somewhat incomplete, I find that encouraging a company by buying their game doesn't always work in the consumer's favor. 

9 hours ago, Fred the Barber said:

Disclaimer: though yes I've done some contract work with Sol Press, I don't have any real insight into the financials. That said...

Presumably they won't say that the sequels WILL be translated because they literally don't know if they'll be able to afford it. The stretch goals may be "astronomically high", but they're what it will cost them to license and localize the game. They don't have $80k sitting around to throw after a game that people aren't willing to shell out that same amount for, and thus they'll have to wait to see if the first game is actually successful enough (read: makes a lot more money than what comes in from the Kickstarter) to justify doing the sequels. I certainly wouldn't expect any real confirmation at this point, because they can't actually commit to throwing that much non-existent money after the game.

As per my points above in the response to the other person, I believe that if they can't properly fund the title, with or without a kickstarter, that they shouldn't buy licenses that require such a massive undertaking financially and physically(with translation). They have released a couple of good VNs recently and I'm glad but they should have stayed in the business of not buying licenses that require more finances than either they have or are feasible to spend on a translation. I understand that it could be a huge financial burden by promising the whole trilogy to be translated but leaving a vague "We want to translate the whole trilogy but it's up to you guys to fund it or some sort of investor or other means of acquisition of funds in order to translate comes around" isn't the most reassuring update statement to hear.

 

To be clear, I do like Sol Press and I did the back the project, in part because I enjoyed HoshiMemo so much but also in that I want Sol Press to succeed as they have translated a few VNs that were right up my alley and will probably continue to do so. My intention was not to threaten them but to instead warn them about how they go about the Irotoridori trilogy as it has the potential to sour their status with the VN community.(And please don't let them go bankrupt over this, I never intended for that to be a threat or consequence of promising the sequels [Only that they will be translated at some point but not at the moment])

Edited by thelink1123
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19 hours ago, thelink1123 said:

My real point is, you shouldn't take on a series with sequels if you aren't willing or have no way to fund said complete series. Releasing only the first game with no plans for the sequels to be translated would be EXTREMELY bad PR. Yeah, that takes out some series from being translated or at least attempted [...]

And on the last point you made about "buying the first game to encourage the sequels being translated". With such titles as Hapymaher and D.C. III(I know there were a ton of issues with licensing and stuff but my point still stands) not getting their STORY-BASED fandiscs translated despite the story being left somewhat incomplete, I find that encouraging a company by buying their game doesn't always work in the consumer's favor.

"Yet".  Hapymaher's fandisk hasn't been released "yet".  With Hapymaher taking slot #4 for 2018 there's a pretty good likelihood that MangaGamer will pick it up.  They've picked up a lot of fandisks in the past.  Da Capo 3, yeah, probably not.  They released a few Da Capo fandisks back in the day ... but not in a long time.

And you can never guarantee you'll be able to finish the complete series.  Shit happens.  Look at NISA stealing Trails from XSEED.  Numerous manga series have had their English versions cancelled.  Yeah, it's a bad idea to be cavalier about starting a super-long series.  But starting a long series always comes with uncertainty.  Sometimes a game bombs so hard you have no choice but to abandon ship.  Sometimes the property becomes mired in licensing hell partway through and releases just kind of stop.  Sometimes your company's falling apart.  VN companies aren't the most stable companies in the world.

You're essentially advocating that nobody should have ever licensed Irotoridori.  And that MangaGamer shouldn't have licensed the Steampunk series, or Da Capo 3, or Funbag Fantasy, or Koihime, or Kara no Shoujo.  After all, they're still making new games for both KnS and Koihime, and probably will for a long time.  MangaGamer certainly hasn't committed.

Sorry, but that sounds like a bad deal.  I prefer it the other way.  Yeah, only getting Irotoridori will kind of suck, if that's the way things turn out.  But there are really only 2 reasons they'd turn out that way: 1) Sol Press goes under; 2) the game bombs.

Edited by Nandemonai
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3 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

 

You're essentially advocating that nobody should have ever licensed Irotoridori.  And that MangaGamer shouldn't have licensed the Steampunk series, or Da Capo 3, or Funbag Fantasy, or Koihime, or Kara no Shoujo.  After all, they're still making new games for both KnS and Koihime, and probably will for a long time.  MangaGamer certainly hasn't committed.

Sorry, but that sounds like a bad deal.  I prefer it the other way.  Yeah, only getting Irotoridori will kind of suck, if that's the way things turn out.  But there are really only 2 reasons they'd turn out that way: 1) Sol Press goes under; 2) the game bombs.

Though I'm not advocating that, if Neko would have somehow gotten the license they would have guaranteed the series' entire release unless it bombed so hard it wouldn't be feasible.(You know, considering it was Chue's dream to translate it and all officially).

As for MG, you're just putting words in my mouth. They technically did the ENTIRE trilogy of Da Capo. Da Capo I,II, and III were all translated and released but only got a few of their fandiscs translated. I was merely using that as an example how sometimes encouraging a company with sales doesn't always make them act in the consumer's favor. Nowhere did I insert my personal opinion about MG on any of the series you mentioned above but Da Capo(One, because I've only read Da Capo in that list and two, because I never mentioned them and three, because I don't read nukiges ). You're also referring to still-releasing VNs, not a trilogy completed years ago. That alone makes the MG and Sol Press comparison in this case inadequate. 

They can license what they want, but if a game has a known sequel that would seriously mar the reader's understanding of the story and there's no plans to translate(also considering asking for spoilers anywhere gets you the response "Learn Japanese" or "I'm not going to spoil it in case there's a potential translation in the future") that sequel at release or at least interest in doing so it kinda makes the first game lose worth. Take Muv Luv for instance, if only the first game was translated and Unlimited and Alternative were not, Muv Luv would be known as a generic high school romance VN. 

Nowhere did I say that companies can't license a series without the intent to translate FUTURE releases (since they could be years into the future when they've released). My opinion is that if you're going to pick up a past series that is already completed but is a multi-title work, you should commit to deliver the entire experience through the all of the series' major releases at the very least. If you don't then oh well, they won't be getting a sale from me. (Though I already backed Irotoridori, so no going back now.) Let's just hope Sol Press plays it smart on this one. 

Edited by thelink1123
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23 hours ago, thelink1123 said:

Though I'm not advocating that, if Neko would have somehow gotten the license they would have guaranteed the series' entire release unless it bombed so hard it wouldn't be feasible.(

And that, my friend, is not even a guarantee anymore, you are basically proving our point with your own words. Noone can guarantee a huge trilogy (unless kickstarted) when the first entry can bomb so hard that it won't be feasible anymore. That just doesn't make any sense. Sol Press is doing exactly the same thing as Neko would right now so your discontent is a bit misguided.

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9 hours ago, novurdim said:

And that, my friend, is not even a guarantee anymore, you are basically proving our point with your own words. Noone can guarantee a huge trilogy (unless kickstarted) when the first entry can bomb so hard that it won't be feasible anymore. That just doesn't make any sense. Sol Press is doing exactly the same thing as Neko would right now so your discontent is a bit misguided.

Correction: I understood the risk, and acknowledged that it would be dangerous financially in my first comment. When you kickstart a series and only the first title is guaranteed and the rest is in limbo, it already looks bad. However, if Neko were to self-fund the translation, and then discover that the first game had bombed, I find that much more understandable in their case than I do in Sol's case(Considering nobody but the company lost out but in Sol's case, everybody who backed the first game essentially gets gypped out of a complete experience).

My discontent is not misguided, as I have never liked kickstarter and this was my first backing, and even after backing I still dislike it because it feels like you're not guaranteed the full package. Yeah the stretch goals were not reached and all, but the ambiguity of the other titles' status really hurt the project in the first place. 

Honestly, I don't think I'll sway anyone into my point of view on this, but I accept that. I'll just concede any further debating by saying let's hope they deliver for everyone interested in the title. [Oh and it'll be nice to see a Favorite game with no mosaics regardless of if they release the whole trilogy or not]

(No, I'm not shilling for Neko either. I like both companies equally at this point and hope they both get huge projects that really put them on the map.)

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4 hours ago, thelink1123 said:

However, if Neko were to self-fund the translation, and then discover that the first game had bombed, I find that much more understandable in their case than I do in Sol's case(Considering nobody but the company lost out but in Sol's case, everybody who backed the first game essentially gets gypped out of a complete experience).

Well, it's not like I don't understand how you feel but kickstarter is a very... complicated topic. Localisation is always a risk even when succesfully kickstarted, I remember hearing here how Mikandi somehow ended up with serious losses over Libra even after raising like 180k or 190k for a single game. They did fail to deliver an adequate product but the situation still shows that it's not a risk-averse approach, Sol Press are likely still self-funding the release quite a bit. At the same time it's true that it may look like they are taking advantage of the fans to safely check out the market and then pull out if something goes wrong but at least it's not like people could back all three games from the get-go. Though I agree that it's still not exactly the same as only buying the first game in the series which has since been dropped. But making huge promises now and breaking them later if the first game bombs and it becomes literally impossible to release an even bigger sequel would end up as an incomparably bigger blow to their reputation. Complicated, I say. :notlikemiya:

Let's just say that I'm with you in hoping that it works out for all parties involved in the end.

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2 hours ago, novurdim said:

Mikandi somehow ended up with serious losses over Libra even after raising like 180k or 190k for a single game.

Mikandi and Libra... is a special case. They probably lost money because that's what happens when you hire absolute hacks with no clue what they're doing and no capacity to do the work and then pay them several times the industry rate.

That aside, I think most VN Kickstarters even by the companies who knew better have at best broken even, and probably more have lost money than have broken even. TBH, the worst part about VN Kickstarters is how everybody ends up feeling like they lost... At least this one is through the rough part. Let's just hope the project turns out well.

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13 minutes ago, Fred the Barber said:

Mikandi and Libra... is a special case. They probably lost money because that's what happens when you hire absolute hacks with no clue what they're doing and no capacity to do the work and then pay them several times the industry rate.

That aside, I think most VN Kickstarters even by the companies who knew better have at best broken even, and probably more have lost money than have broken even. TBH, the worst part about VN Kickstarters is how everybody ends up feeling like they lost... At least this one is through the rough part. Let's just hope the project turns out well.

Well, their first step is making a deal for the rest of the series and then I'm sure everything will work out just fine.

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1 hour ago, Fred the Barber said:

Mikandi and Libra... is a special case. They probably lost money because that's what happens when you hire absolute hacks with no clue what they're doing and no capacity to do the work and then pay them several times the industry rate.

True, but thanks to them we now know it's theoretically possible to end up in the pit even after raising almost 200k on your KS.  :wahaha:

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On 3/10/2019 at 10:14 PM, novurdim said:

Noone can guarantee a huge trilogy (unless kickstarted) when the first entry can bomb so hard that it won't be feasible anymore

can´t even think of that many trilogies, huge ones like grisaia, which doesn´t really count forwhy it´s been a special case. basically saying customers (usually) are no fucking retards, no one just goes throwing 2,5k at a campaign, without knowing if he/she even likes the 1st title. no trial version available doesnt really help shit either...

8 hours ago, novurdim said:

Localisation is always a risk even when succesfully kickstarted, I remember hearing here how Mikandi somehow ended up with serious losses over Libra even after raising like 180k or 190k for a single game.

that´s what happens when retards are given money. let´s fucking outsource everything to shitdoing nobodies, apparently no even asking/checking for provisional results, paying them like 10times the usual rates, because why not & finally when shit bombs hard you still praise them for having done "an amazing job". no even mentioning the ongoing re-edit/-translate out of pity....

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On 6/3/2019 at 8:46 PM, Plk_Lesiak said:

I wonder if I'm the only one that feels fans having to pleadge unreasonable amounts of money to make this project happen is depressing more than anything else. It showcases perfectly how this kind of crowdfunding is inherently exploitative, especially if the authors set steep goals and don't invest in proper marketing, just leeching off the existing fanbase.

Although, I give quite a lot of respect to MangaGamer for doing that last-minute signal boost. Rare to see a company caring about the niche as a whole, rather than just about being on top. I guess they picked up some of the better parts of the Japanese corporate culture. 

Well I, like always, asked myself what I stood to gain.

It didn't seem too much to me to drop 36 euros (40 dollars) as I'm a European "rich" bastard (currency exchange heh) for the digital game + soundtrack package. This game is probably gonna be pretty expensive when it releases, and Sol Press doesn't have cheap retail prices in the first place. So I figured I might as well contribute to their charade, and make the whole thing happen. I want to read the novel too. Even if it's in 2021-2022.

Edited by Okarin
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7 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Well I, like always, asked myself what I stood to gain.

It didn't seem too much to me to drop 36 euros (40 dollars) as I'm a European "rich" bastard (currency exchange heh) for the digital game + soundtrack package. This game is probably gonna be pretty expensive when it releases, and Sol Press doesn't have cheap retail prices in the first place. So I figured I might as well contribute to their charade, and make the whole thing happen. I want to read the novel too. Even if it's in 2021-2022.

Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable... Unlike throwing 800 dollars to a campaign and then living off instant noodles for the next two months. :P

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5 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable... Unlike throwing 800 dollars to a campaign and then living off instant noodles for the next two months. :P

Well I might not have ended a 100% proper adult, but at least I have my priorities clear. I wouldn't pick one of the top-tier rewards in ANY Kickstarter under any circumstances. Maybe if I'm a millionnaire one day. It should be funded by the lower tiers attracting a lot of people.

In the end I just saved a few dollars, and the problem with paying the money upfront is that I have no guarantee on the TL, but at least I contributed to make it happen.

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6 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Well I might not have ended a 100% proper adult, but at least I have my priorities clear. I wouldn't pick one of the top-tier rewards in ANY Kickstarter under any circumstances. Maybe if I'm a millionnaire one day. It should be funded by the lower tiers attracting a lot of people.

Yeah, my point exactly. A well-executed campaign should rely on a large number of people contributing what they're comfortable with for tier rewards they're actually interested in. There's obviously going to be a decent premium on all of it, especially the limited-edition collector's items, but fans shouldn't be encouraged to make personal sacrifices just to make a commercial project happen.

Although, I can't say I see any reliable method of preventing that with how crowdfunding platforms currently work. I'd honestly be all for strict caps on how much can you can pay and how many higher-tier rewards the campaign creator can offer in video game Kickstarters, but such rules are probably impossible to define properly and would cause a huge uproar. Many players seem to be happy about getting broke over their favourite pyramid scheme (hello there Star Citizen) and who am I to tell them that they're idiots wrong to do so? The only thing that can work is holding companies to higher standards and making people aware that crowdfunding shouldn't work like charity auctions for the sake of commercial game developers/localizers. That VN license/project you're trying to fund doesn't have cancer, it doesn't need your money NOW OR NEVER. And if it's not sustainable, maybe it really shouldn't happen at this exact point in time...

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9 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

The only thing that can work is holding companies to higher standards and making people aware that crowdfunding shouldn't work like charity auctions for the sake of commercial game developers/localizers.

Charity in the form of financial support of your favorite artists is the whole point of crowdfunding though. It's basically in the name. Kickstarter isn't a shop, at least wasn't supposed to be until companies like Sekai have turned it into a preorder platform, it's exactly a form of charity. You really like counting other people's money and criticize their priorities, aren't you. 

Edited by novurdim
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9 hours ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Yeah, my point exactly. A well-executed campaign should rely on a large number of people contributing what they're comfortable with for tier rewards they're actually interested in.

My problem is I've reached a point where I actually kind of have too much swag.  I don't just go for swag the way I used to, both because I'm running out of space, and because of going in for things like The Last Guardian special edition (got bored, put it down halfway through) or the Persona 5 special edition (game's TL issues and struggles to nail the landing soured me on it) or the Ni no Kuni special edition (it's... not Ghibli Movie: The RPG).

So what I want to do is play the game and then buy swag.  Chrono Clock, for instance.  I decided I wanted one of those wallscrolls.  Turns out I could only get one via one of the Japanese stores that will ship overseas.  Wallscroll itself was relatively cheap, shipping was an arm and a leg.  When I backed the Kickstarter I could have gone for a wallscroll and probably paid a similar amount.  But I hadn't played the game yet.  (I did go in for the drama CD because I figured it wouldn't be sold seperately.)

So for Irotoridori, I bought some wallscrolls and keychains because hey, they're nice wallscrolls and keychains.  Spend a couple hundred bucks, get the complete set.  But I'm taking a chance.  I could always play the game and decide "I hate the main character" or "the game expects me to overlook the fact character X is malevolently psychopathic because the writers seem to think it's funny" or even for no reason I could articulate other than the Eight Deadly Words "I don't care what happens to these people".

I don't expect this, but I have been disappointed in similar ways before by things I was looking forward to, and I'm sure I will be again.

Consequently I'm in a bit of a weird spot.

Spend the money now, and maybe throw it down the drain.  Or don't, and then be kicking myself over loving the game and wanting the cool swag, but not being able to get it.  Because I can't decide I want the swag after playing the game.

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43 minutes ago, novurdim said:

Charity in the form of financial support of your favorite artists is the whole point of crowdfunding though. It's basically in the name. Kickstarter isn't a shop, at least wasn't supposed to be until companies like Sekai have turned it into a preorder platform, it's exactly a form of charity. You really like counting other people's money and criticize their priorities, aren't you. 

Nope, "crowdfunding" does not automaticaly mean people are throwing in money without some kind of return on investment. Notice that tech crowdfunding campaigns work just the same - they're early adopter platforms and people would find it insane if it was any other way. GoFundMe pages on chemo treatment are a different thing, but that's really not what we're talking about. Let's agree to disagree on that.

And yes, I'm being obnoxious and judgmental. It's my personal prerogative as an asshole. But my core issue is with companies that create exploitative crowdfunding models and don't give a shit about consequences of doing so. It's just like gambling, people are not technically forced to abusing it to their personal detriment, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to find some businesses that utilize gambling for profit morally appalling. 

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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Crowdfunding literally means helping to fund projects. Yes, most companies don't really need them. And yes, money-raising originates from charities and has a strong connection to them. But if the project can't happen otherwise, no matter what, you might want a KS.

For example, Obsidian Entertainment was at tatters at the time of the first Pillars of Eternity. The massive nostalgia wave raised 4 million dollars. What was sleazy was, after some years of success, doing the same for the second part. But since people were already accustomed to it...

There are many isometric RPGs in the works with the KS model and they aren't looking half bad... I don't think they could compare to "real" projects (as in, they're probably gonna fall short in some category or the other), but since KS lets you grab the game at a reduced price compared to the final retail price at launch, it's not that bad either.

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