Have you ever read a VN in which one of the heroines was secretly depressed/traumatized/borderline suicidal etc., and while doing her route, you helped her get over the depression/come to terms with the trauma/find a reason to live?

[Ryleona]

Does the thought that if you did another girl's route, that girl would live a broken life, never come to terms with her trauma, or even kill herself not bother anyone else? That thought makes me feel like a horrible person tbh. Or am I just overthinking things? Maybe i'm the only person who humanized fictional characters to that extent.

[Thyndd]

Gosh that could perfectly be a light novel title.

Yes, it has happened to me that I felt bad for picking another route while knowing what that heroine was going through. It may sound stupid to humanize fictional characteres like that, yeah, but that also means that you are really invested in the story and therefore you are enjoying the medium to the fullest 

[Ryleona]

3 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Gosh that could perfectly be a light novel title.

Yes, it has happened to me that I felt bad for picking another route while knowing what that heroine was going through. It may sound stupid to humanize fictional characteres like that, yeah, but that also means that you are really invested in the story and therefore you are enjoying the medium to the fullest 

I guess that's a good way to put it.

[LemiusK]

YMK and Kanon come to mind, in that if you skipped a girl's route, she's pretty much met with trauma and a bad end. When I thought about that while playing those VNs, yeah, it did bum me out a little, but on the other hand, you can't really save everyone in real life either, so I like the realism of such a structure design. Having everything wrapped up nicely like the Kanon anime is just way too contrived and silly for my taste.

[alpacaman]

It isn't as if mental issues could only be overcome by the power of having a boyfriend in real life though, especially when the boyfriend is as bland as most VN protagonists. When all female characters are in love with the protagonist but have problems only a romantic partner can solve for them, the realism argument isn't that valid imo.

[LemiusK]

22 minutes ago, alpacaman said:

It isn't as if mental issues could only be overcome by the power of having a boyfriend in real life though, especially when the boyfriend is as bland as most VN protagonists. When all female characters are in love with the protagonist but have problems only a romantic partner can solve for them, the realism argument isn't that valid imo.

You have a point, but I still stand by what I said and prefer the YMK structure. Putting realism aside, the choices you make (AKA which route you choose) just have more weight when it matters that the route you didn't choose have consequences. Otherwise, you might as well be reading a book with multiple protagonists (which, while I know is what a visual novel essentially is at its core, I still prefer VNs that feel like a game more than a story, like School Days and Aoishiro, hence why School Days is among my favorites in spite of its story quality).

A story with stakes based on what you choose is just a lot more intriguing to me that way. The happy endings feel more gratifying, and the sad endings feel more tragic. There's a deeper personal connection because you were the one responsible for those choices.

Anyway, shouldn't this be in Visual Novel Talk?

Edited December 3, 2018 by LemiusK

[alpacaman]

9 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

You have a point, but I still stand by what I said and prefer the YMK structure. Putting realism aside, the choices you make (AKA which route you choose) just have more weight when it matters that the route you didn't choose have consequences. Otherwise, you might as well be reading a book with multiple protagonists (which, while I know it's what a visual novel essentially is at its core, I still prefer VNs that feel a lot more like adventure games, like School Days and Aoishiro).

A story with stakes based on what you choose is just a lot more intriguing to me that way.

Sure, it's a good thing when your choices have an impact on other characters as well, I just don't think the way most VNs are set up is a good fit for that kind of story. School Days is practically a parody of exactly that, showing in an over the top way how a classical romance VN setup would play out if your choices affected the other characters as well. 

[r0xm2n]

I know what you mean.

In Grisaia no Kajitsu, skipping Michiru's route to get Yumiko's route was probably the hardest thing ever

Especially since....

Spoiler

Michiru actually IS suicidal......

 

....... though somewhat averted in the Grisaia series, because.....

Spoiler

The Harem ending is canon in the end....

 

[LemiusK]

Just now, alpacaman said:

Sure, it's a good thing when your choices have an impact on other characters as well, I just don't think the way most VNs are set up is a good fit for that kind of story.

Yeah, unfortunately. That's why I do appreciate a VN even more when it is a good fit. School Days might not have been the best example, but the consequences still exist, so it at least forms the skeleton/foundation of what such a VN might look like.

But really, it doesn't even have to be something as complex as School Days. Something simple like YMK showed well enough that by skipping routes, the other girls can have a bad time. The VN itself actively lets you know that certain characters have met a tragic end. Unfortunately, it didn't bother doing anything more meaningful than that, like getting the protagonist to visit the other girls after each route ends. I would have written it like that myself.

[Dergonu]

Well I won't be able to play games like this the same way ever again, thank you very much  

(Guess this qualifies as VN talk, so moved) 

[LemiusK]

14 minutes ago, r0xm2n said:

I know what you mean.

In Grisaia no Kajitsu, skipping Michiru's route to get Yumiko's route was probably the hardest thing ever

Especially since....

  Reveal hidden contents

Michiru actually IS suicidal......

 

....... though somewhat averted in the Grisaia series, because.....

  Reveal hidden contents

The Harem ending is canon in the end....

 

"Somewhat averted" is right. I was reading "The Labyrinth of Grisaia" the other day, and there was this scene

Spoiler

where the girls were reading about Yuuji's past, and having read how horrible a childhood Yuuji had, Michiru asked why he didn't just kill himself? And stomped away in frustration. It's not explicitly stated, but you can tell that the others were worried Michiru was going to do something foolish, implying that even in the canonical harem end of Labyrinth, Michiru did try to kill herself too...

 

[NowItsAngeTime]

Rewrite  has a few examples:

 

Spoiler

 

-Kotori was 100% depressed after her parents dying and having to make familiars of her parents, dog, AND potential love interest that had rewritten 'fake' personalities. And having to guard a loli that determines the fate of the world.

-Lucia's whole route was how her poisonous hands gave her incredible insecurities to the point of doubting her relatoinship and best friend and ending up killing a good amount of people.

-The biggest one, Akane, was so depressed she left her relationship to pursue destroying humanity for her side of the war, with the obvious intention of wanting to suicide.

 

 

[alpacaman]

6 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Yeah, unfortunately. That's why I do appreciate a VN even more when it is a good fit. School Days might not have been the best example, but the consequences still exist, so it at least forms the skeleton/foundation of what such a VN might look like.

But really, it doesn't even have to be something as complex as School Days. Something simple like YMK showed well enough that by skipping routes, the other girls can have a bad time. The VN itself actively lets you know that certain characters have met a tragic end. Unfortunately, it didn't bother doing anything more meaningful than that, like getting the protagonist to visit the other girls after each route ends. I would have written it like that myself.

I haven't read YMK, so I can't really comment on that example (I mean I haven't read School Days either but I know the gist of it since its pretty notorious). That being said, I don't like the concept of the heroine destined for disaster unless she gets saved by the knight-in-shining-armour-protagonist, so when your absence in a route leads to the respective heroine meeting a bad fate, it doesn't really improve things that much for me.

[LemiusK]

6 minutes ago, alpacaman said:

I haven't read YMK, so I can't really comment on that example (I mean I haven't read School Days either but I know the gist of it since its pretty notorious). That being said, I don't like the concept of the heroine destined for disaster unless she gets saved by the knight-in-shining-armour-protagonist, so when your absence in a route leads to the respective heroine meeting a bad fate, it doesn't really improve things that much for me.

Well, yeah, that's problematic too, but it doesn't necessarily have to be about a girl meeting a bad fate because you weren't there for her. That's just one of the many types of consequences that can happen in a VN.

For example, in Aoishiro, if you don't score enough points with a certain heroine (it's a yuri VN, so there's no knight in shining armor, but that's irrelevant), then the protagonist would have a bad end herself when fighting the "bad guy." Therefore, it can go both ways, having the protagonist suffer as well if she doesn't arm herself with the proper allies. Normally, this works more effectively in an action story like Aoishiro. What you and I mentioned just now in regards to YMK, that's a romance story, so yeah, it can have more problematic implications with choice and consequences. Action stories, on the other hand, would work more like an RPG, where you suffer if you don't have the proper allies, or if you pick the wrong path.

Edited December 3, 2018 by LemiusK

[solidbatman]

what even is this thread title? 

[Ranzo]

Yes, yes I have. I have played quite a few vns with depressed and or suicidal characters and for the most part when they crop up they are handled kind of well.

Doki Lit Club had that one depressed girl and I liked how kind of realistic her trauma was conveyed. (Well realistic in a sense) It's a shame that she

Spoiler

offed herself

I think it would be interesting to have a vn romance with a character that had terrible depression and you had to play some weird balancing act in order to help her keep together. (It could explore the realistic concept that love and tenderness can't be the only thing to save a person and that real bad depression isn't something you just get over.)

[Thyndd]

To be fair most "depressed" heroines are not really depressed in the clinical sense; most of the times there's a situation that if properly addressed will naturally lead to an improvement.  

7 minutes ago, Ranzo said:

Doki Lit Club had that one depressed girl and I liked how kind of realistic her trauma was conveyed.

Yeah see, that was one with actual depression

Spoiler

And no amount of help could help her in the end. That's unfortunately as realistic a portrayal as it gets 

 

[Ranzo]

5 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

To be fair most "depressed" heroines are not really depressed in the clinical sense; most of the times there's a situation that if properly addressed will naturally lead to an improvement.  

Yeah see, that was one with actual depression

  Hide contents

And no amount of help could help her in the end. That's unfortunately as realistic a portrayal as it gets 

 

My problem with that was it ended so quickly and cheaply for max shock value. I want something with the central focus being on the depression itself. And that severe depression is more of a life sentence than a death sentence.

Spoiler

It seemed real contrived that she just decided to kill herself right after confessing about what was going on with her. Still I get that it wasn't the focus of the vn

 

[LemiusK]

Doki Doki seemed like a meme/joke VN to me, so I'm not surprised it's chock-full of cheap shock value. I didn't bother finishing past the first route because it's so stale and generic. Most of its "shock value" content was already spoiled by the ubiquitous Doki Doki memes anyway.

Edited December 4, 2018 by LemiusK

[Okarin]

Yes, it's called Real Life (TM) by Jehovah Studios. In 3D.

[Dreamysyu]

19 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Yes, it's called Real Life (TM) by Jehovah Studios. In 3D.

Oh, I think I heard about this one. Is it that shitty game that always locks you out of all other routes even after your most stupid choices and never even allows you to restart?

[Okarin]

Just now, Dreamysyu said:

Oh, I think I heard about this one. Is it that shitty game that always locks you out of all other routes even after your most stupid choices and never even allows you to restart?

Well, I guess it's marked in VNDB as "Choices Matter"

[LemiusK]

26 minutes ago, Okarin said:

Jehovah Studios

Sounds like one of those shitty Christian games The Angry Video Game Nerd made fun of.

Edited December 4, 2018 by LemiusK

[Okarin]

Just now, LemiusK said:

Sounds like one of those shitty Christian games The Angry Video Game nerd made fun of.

This studio has many branches though. This game sells by the billions.

[ittaku]

Depends on how the other routes are written in the background. I prefer it if it's implied the other heroines have their issues solved/attended to in some other way. The one I'm currently translating does that. You see the other heroines you haven't chosen quietly get better, even if you have nothing to do with them. I much prefer this, but it's also the hallmark of many games that have no bad endings which is also something I prefer.