Jump to content

What kind of ending structure do you prefer?


Rain Spectre

What Kind Of Endings Do You Prefer  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. What Kind of Ending

    • One True End
      18
    • Multiple Endings of Equal Signifigance
      23


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

then look at Steins;Gate and its various endings which could work as separate stories, even if you don't find out about certain information. A lot of stories don't have the full information behind the mystery revealed by the end, but they nonetheless "stand by their own" as stories. Steins;Gate is no exception.

But wouldn't you say Steins;Gate is a little especial on that front? Due to the different timelines sort of structure it's still regarded as a whole cohesive story. It works because it's a time travel story, plus it still arguably has one true ending that ties everything together and gives a conclusion. 

1 hour ago, LemiusK said:

And then and then, you have stuff like "The Fruits of Grisaia", which you can't really label as a "moege" per se (it's more like a charage).

Yeah...  Not a moege, but still follows the dating sim structure, doesn't it? You get in a relationship with one of the girls and then you get to know her story, which of course is completely different from everyone else's because their pasts are not related, for the most part at least. 

Yeah, I'm aware there are some links, like what Yuuji was going through when Sachi lost her parents, Kazuki's death which also ties with Amane's backstory. But for the most part they are pretty independent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Yeah...  Not a moege, but still follows the dating sim structure, doesn't it? You get in a relationship with one of the girls and then you get to know her story, which of course is completely different from everyone else's because their pasts are not related, for the most part at least. 

  Hide contents

Yeah, I'm aware there are some links, like what Yuuji was going through when Sachi lost her parents, Kazuki's death which also ties with Amane's backstory. But for the most part they are pretty independent. 

Actually, you couldn't just ignore those "links," particularly if you refer to what @Akshay said earlier about multiple perspectives. These different routes might be independent, but they are very much like the routes of Cartagra, offering multiple perspectives on character backgrounds and personality. In that sense, they are telling one huge story, but from multiple perspectives. It's not a perfect example, but you could at least see how a story can be told in such a way, through multiple perspectives. If Grisaia didn't pull it perfectly, then I'm sure other writers very well could utilize this design as well.

This is especially so if you consider Yumiko's extreme reaction in Michiru's route. I'm sure I don't need to name which one. It shows a side of her you normally wouldn't see in other routes, at least in regards to how she treats Michiru and feel about her.

Taking such perspectives into consideration, think back to Ever17 and how it also offers perspectives on the other heroines. Ever17 might as well be a dating simulator too if you feel Grisaia is one, since the routes also explore the different backgrounds of the different heroines. I just don't think calling either of these VNs a "dating simulator" is accurate, or very fair. It's simplifying things.

In other words, "dating simulator" or not, the different routes offer a coherent story where you could learn about the multiple characters and their backgrounds. Both Ever17 and Grisaia have accomplished the same task in that respect.

 

12 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

But wouldn't you say Steins;Gate is a little especial on that front? Due to the different timelines sort of structure it's still regarded as a whole cohesive story. It works because it's a time travel story, plus it still arguably has one true ending that ties everything together and gives a conclusion. 

  Hide contents

 

Arguably yes, it's still a whole cohesive story. But Steins;Gate shows well enough that even without the True End, those stories still work. That's the point I was making, not whether if Steins;Gate has a True End or not.

Edited by LemiusK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Arguably yes, it's still a whole cohesive story. But Steins;Gate shows well enough that even without the True End, those stories still work. That's the point I was making, not whether if Steins;Gate has a True End or not.

I see the point you are trying to make, and it's not like I completely disagree with you, but from my perspective, once you have multiple stories intertwined it just comes in naturally to want to give them some sort of conclusion with a true route. Think about it. If Grisaia was a much better example of the type of VN you are refering to, wouldn't you expect a true route, even if it were "optional"? 

Take Rewrite for example. Each route works on their own and they could've just ended it there, but since there is a complex situation and world building you have Terra route to give some closure to the story. It just feels natural. 

Edited by Thyndd
Bad englando
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Thyndd said:

I see the point you are trying to make, and it's not like I completely disagree with you, but from my perspective, once you have multiple stories intertwined it just comes in naturally to want to give them some sort of conclusion with a true route. Think about it. If Grisaia was a much better example of the type of VN you are refering to, wouldn't you expect a true route, even if it were "optional"? 

Like Rewrite for example. Each route works on their own and they could've just ended it there, but since there is a complex situation and world building you have Terra route to give some closure to the story. It just feels natural. 

It feels natural because the story demands it to be natural. If you take away all the lore and the mystique and the mystery portions of the story, the story doesn't need a True End because everything - the characters' backstories - have been explained. In other words, whether a story needs a True End to feel natural or not really depends on the nature of the story.

And no, a "slice of life" moege where you hang out with multiple girls isn't a dating simulator nor is it a bad example of a coherent story. It's still a story told from multiple perspectives. Remove the romance of moege and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between such a story and your average ensemble cast story, where the protagonist perhaps form friendships with multiple characters. The romance/dating aspect here is irrelevant to the point I'm making, that moege stories still work as a functional, satisfying story even without a True End.

In fact, there's a term for stories like these - it's called an episodic story. A story that consists of multiple side stories. There are many highly acclaimed episodic stories out there that are just as satisfying, if not more so than stories with a single ending, because it's like you get to experience three to four stories in the same canon world/universe at the same time. When all is said and done, however, I feel like we'll just be arguing back-and-forth without arriving at a conclusion, because reader satisfaction in this context is highly subjective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the feeling that this question is equivalent to asking whether it is better to write with right or left hand. It depends on the language (some language start from the right) and personal preference hence differ on a person to person basis.

Theoretically so long the story is complete I don't mind. Practically even some of the best VNs have terrible side routes. Writers are not so patient as many would think and frequently their work would be judged by the best route, not the average performance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

It feels natural because the story demands it to be natural. If you take away all the lore and the mystique and the mystery portions of the story, the story doesn't need a True End because everything - the characters' backstories - have been explained. In other words, whether a story needs a True End to feel natural or not really depends on the nature of the story.

Sure, if you take all the plot out of Rewrite, you suddenly don't feel the urge to have a true route anymore, because you've transformed it into a charage :makina:

Of course it depends on the type of story. Perhaps I should've expressed myself better and said that "a true route feels natural for any non linear plotge". 

18 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

And no, a "slice of life" moege where you hang out with multiple girls isn't a dating simulator nor is it a bad example of a coherent story. It's still a story told from multiple perspectives. Remove the romance of moege and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between such a story and your average ensemble cast story, where the protagonist perhaps form friendships with multiple characters. The romance/dating aspect here is irrelevant to the point I'm making, that moege stories still work as a functional, satisfying story even without a True End

Well, no, it isn't exactly a dating sim, but you still have a fairly big cast of romanceable characters and, by means of your choices, you get to approach the one that you fancy the most. True, the romance is not an intrinsic part for this structure to work, it just so happens that romance usually sells better than just making some friends along the way and most products out there are focused on it. 

As you say, there is no problem at all (not any real reason to) for "episodic" VNs to not have a true route. And therefore  in the end, whether you prefer "true route VNs" or "multiple endings VNs" probably comes down to what type of stories you prefer. 

Edited by Thyndd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Thyndd said:

Sure, if you take all the plot out of Rewrite, you suddenly don't feel the urge to have a true route anymore, because you've transformed it into a charage :makina:

Of course it depends on the type of story. Perhaps I should've expressed myself better and said that "a true route feels natural for any non linear plotge".

Exactly. So the problem has less to do with the existence of multiple endings, and more to do with what kind of ending structure is appropriate for specific kinds of stories or '-ges.'

 

1 minute ago, Thyndd said:

Well, no, it isn't exactly a dating sim, but you still have a fairly big cast of romanceable characters and, by means of your choices, you get to approach the one that you fancy the most. True, the romance is not an intrinsic part for this structure to work, it just so happens that romance usually sells better than just making some friends along the way and most products out there are focused on it. 

As you say, there is no problem at all (not any real reason) for "episodic" VNs to have a true route. And therefore  in the end, that you prefer "true route VNs" or "multiple endings VNs" probably comes down to what type of stories you prefer. 

Yep, that's my point. The definition of moeges and whether if they're dating sims was irrelevant to what I was saying. I was referring to the story structure, not the story context.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, zxdvas said:

I have the feeling that this question is equivalent to asking whether it is better to write with right or left hand. It depends on the language (some language start from the right) and personal preference hence differ on a person to person basis.

I'm more of a Boustrophedon kind of guy, so I actually love both structures :leecher:

10 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Yep, that's my point. The definition of moeges and whether if they're dating sims was irrelevant to what I was saying. I was referring to the story structure, not the story context

Yeah I get it. I just generalized to moeges and dating sims because they are by far the genres that makes use of this structure the most. 

Well, seems like we've reached an agreement. Which was to be expected because I knew from the beginning that there wasn't much of a disagreement. 

Plus, I love my charages and even some moeges too. Grisaia's characters are probably the most endearing ones I've encountered in my VN reading career, and I always find myself lovingly thinking about them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Thyndd said:

Yeah I get it. I just generalized to moeges and dating sims because they are by far the genres that makes use of this structure the most. 

Which is a shame when you think about it, since such a story structure can be utilized for so much more than "My waifu is teh best!" That being said, I haven't expanded my search to western VNs yet, so perhaps western VNs have better use of the structure than moege.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Dreamysyu said:

I don't really care if one ending is considered more "canon" than the others (I honestly don't know why people care about canons that much). At the same time, even if it's not a "true" ending, I prefer VNs that have one ending that's supposed to be played last and gives some kind of the closure to the VN as a whole. Otherwise it sometimes starts to feel like a collection of loosely connected stories rather than one uniform work. A good example is Fate which does not have a real true ending, but the true ending to Heaven's Feel feels like a nice place to finish it.

Thanks for copying my thoughts, did you ask for permission first though?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/28/2018 at 4:58 AM, LemiusK said:

Never get into a Type-Moon argument, because personal opinions be damned in them. :sachi: And yes, this is a Type-Moon argument... lol

Anyway, Sakura sucks. The end. Get salty please. :salt: Also, 

  Reveal hidden contents

tentacle rape in HF.

Same problem Muv-Luv Alternative had in the final arc, but on a much larger scale. At least that dubious h-scene in Alternative wasn't a significant part of its story. Nasu went full pervert on HF. Never go full pervert.
 

Yeah, I guess... if you don't care about one of its most important characters that began the story. It's unsatisfying, even if you treat it as a normal non-VN story. It's structurally unsound and broken if you consider HF to be the closure and "final act" of the story.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 4:52 AM, Dreamysyu said:

Again, it is not the true end. What I wanted to say, its ending gives a nice closure to the themes of the themes of the story

  Reveal hidden contents

and is more or less happy overall,

so I believe, it's a good final ending, not the true one.

How dare you! :saber: Heaven's Feel is basically the only thing that makes FSN better than a random 7/10 VN!

.

.

.

:illya: Yeah, personal opinions exist.

Yeah, I'm not saying it can't be. It's just not what I prefer to read.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 4:44 AM, LemiusK said:

Two things.

1) A collection of loosely connected stories can be enjoyable in some cases, particularly slice-of-life VNs where you're just enjoying spending time with girls.

2) I hate, hate Heaven's Feel, period, because of what happened to Saber. Even UBW, my second most disliked route, at least had Saber in a rather 'happy' state. There's none of the so-called closure you talked about for Saber in HF, which ironically contradicts what you said.

Besides, hollow ataraxia, the sequel to FSN, completely invalidates HF as the True End by having Saber as a character.

Edit: Okay, never mind. I take back that last point. Ataraxia is a fandisc, not a sequel. My bad.

Adding on to what I said about "loosely connected stories." Not every story has to have a three-act structure. Similarly, not every story needs to have a single ending to be a good story. That limits the imagination of the writer, and stifles creativity IMO.

Heaven’s Feel is such trash. UBW was so much fun to read. Also, Fate/Hollow literally feels like a gag visual novel half the time. Hell even the creator said it’s like a dream, so don’t think to much.

 

Now back to the point.Yeah I am not a big fan of “One True End” because it kinda defeats the purpose of visual novels a bit. For example, Ever17 annoyed my ass off with that kinda thing. It just comes out of nowhere.

 

Having mutitple endings of equal merit is literally why I think visual novels excellent at. Can movies do that: nope. Can anime do that: nope. Can comics do that: nope. Can video games do that? Sure, however it’s very genre specific RPGs. You’re not going to get a Halo game with a multiple endings. Furthermore, multiple endings to the level that visual novels do them have only been seen in certain JRPGs like Neir Automata. 

 

It’s one thing to do a linear story, a kinetic novel, but honestly I don’t like the fact there’s a true end as if my choices were somehow wrong. Like skip your VN, my true end is with Waifu X or Husbando Y etc. This really sucks in romantic visual novels where characters are basically routes to several endings. I mean imagine having to fall in love with a certain character to only learn that their ending is not really the true ending because you have to go with a stupid character that you don’t like just so you can get to the true ending. 

 

Another point is that multiple equal endings allows for there to be debate. You know, discussion, over which ending is best. Ideally, when you create a VN or a some kind of artwork, you want to leave the reader, viewer, player etc. something to think about. Having multiple endings could lead to a grand mystery that will leave the audience guessing forever vs “here is the true end! You can stop the debate. You can go home now.” Everyone loves theorizing shit. Give them more fuel to theorize by having multiple endings so they can theorize all kinds of headcannons to satisfy their curiosity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Happiness+ said:

It’s one thing to do a linear story, a kinetic novel, but honestly I don’t like the fact there’s a true end as if my choices were somehow wrong. Like skip your VN, my true end is with Waifu X or Husbando Y etc. This really sucks in romantic visual novels where characters are basically routes to several endings. I mean imagine having to fall in love with a certain character to only learn that their ending is not really the true ending because you have to go with a stupid character that you don’t like just so you can get to the true ending. 

This is exactly why I think attaching routes of plot oriented VNs to heroes/heroines is a bad idea. Why do the MC have to simply forget about the main mystery just because he's not dating main X-chan or Y-kun? It's like they can't even help the main hero/heroine as a good friend...

Other thing that always bugs me when it come to True Routes are the way we enter them. The Butterfly Effect is sometimes way too strong. Like Comyu, for example. The choice to go for Kagome, the true heroine, and to drastically alter the events of the story is...

Spoiler

To think a bit more (like 5 lines worth of text) about a common route event. That happens in every single route. Only that choice, I'm not even kidding. The rest of the common route is exactly the same for all of them. You can even pick the choices for other girls since you are already locked in the true path, you end up with Kagome regardless.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it always sounded stupid for you to enter "true" routes with such insignificant choices that also somehow locks you with a certain love interest because reasons. :P 

Edited by MaggieROBOT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Happiness+ said:

Having mutitple endings of equal merit is literally why I think visual novels excellent at. Can movies do that: nope. Can anime do that: nope. Can comics do that: nope. Can video games do that? Sure, however it’s very genre specific RPGs. You’re not going to get a Call of Duty game with a multiple endings. Furthermore, multiple endings to the level that visual novels do them have only been seen in certain JRPGs like Neir Automata. 

CoD Black Ops 2 has multiple endings, lol.

Anyway, liking multiple endings better is kind of a personal thing, because i really like theorizing which character has a more desastrous outcome without protagonist interference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Rain Spectre said:

I'm beginning to notice a trend of people who go into VNs for romance prefer having open options on endings, while people who go in interested in story care more about true ends. Interesting. 

Well, not necessarily for me. I go for the story (I don't like romance), but I still prefer open options because it feels more realistic (and impactful, having that personal choice to the ending you pick).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing I've noticed, is true endings itself seem to be divided into different types.

1. The author likes a specific heroine the most. This usually makes the better route simply because more effort has been put in it. This can irritate people all the more when the heroine/hero that they like has a weak route.

2. An answer kind of route, as seen in Cartagra or 999, where the pairings aren't so important to the route itself. Even suzu's route in Ayakashibito was kind of like this, not because suzu was considered the main pairing (I actually liked route 2 more) but because you actually understood everything at the end of this route.

3.Something like Tsukihime where every single character has its own true route. That being said in this example, nearly every true route is rage inducing which is why they added good ends as well.

A kit if the times though a true route can also be a in the best case scenario route. Like in Steins:Gate you only get on the true route if everything else happens perfectly (which obviously doesn't in several timelines). In these cases also the true route doesn't really invalidate the other routes. If done well a true route can be a lot of fun especially in chuuni/Mystery VN's. That being said for the most part True Routes seem to irritate a lot more people when thrown into moeges, where the entire purpose is to not have  true route (being able to select your favorite girl as true)

 

 

Edited by Akshay
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the matter comes down to the writer having specific narrative and thematic goals in mind, and specific girls/routes being just contributions and offshoots of those goals. True endings I feel are important because they say what the goals of the works actually are. 

Also, yeah, true endings in romance games are...weird. Though how many are there that aren't just more accurately summed under a different specification? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Rain Spectre said:

I think the matter comes down to the writer having specific narrative and thematic goals in mind, and specific girls/routes being just contributions and offshoots of those goals. True endings I feel are important because they say what the goals of the works actually are. 

Hm... that's simplifying things a bit, I think. The goal could have easily been to make the reader feel good about a slice-of-life setting spent with multiple characters, or the goal could have been a horror episodic story (like Hell Girl); both of which could be easily achieved with multiple endings, and neither of which are bad goals nor do they create bad stories. So yeah, I think you're simplifying things too much, not just a bit.

 

14 minutes ago, Rain Spectre said:

Also, yeah, true endings in romance games are...weird. Though how many are there that aren't just more accurately summed under a different specification? 

How many are there that doesn't require a summary at all? Not many. That's the problem. Writers are too narrow-minded in their creativity. Again, this goes back to how the stories are written - Grisaia needs a summary of Yuuji's past, G-senjou needs Haru to be the "true" heroine, and Fate/Stay Night just happens to end with Heaven's Feels being unlocked in the final order, giving a false illusion that it's the "True" and "final" route - none of this has to do with the structure of multiple endings. All of them have to do with the writer and how he writes his story.

Also, speaking of romance games, Da Capo was actually wasn't a bad story in its own right, telling about multiple aspects of the Da Capo universe through its multiple characters and endings. So despite being a romance game, it's not weird or incoherent at all. If anything, it feels much more consistent than Clannad, which suddenly has a True End out of nowhere.

I think the real issue here is that, you keep trying to enforce this view that "Only One True End" is the way to go, but such a narrow-minded way of thinking just stifles creativity in writing, preventing experimentation with VNs with multiple endings, therefore creating the aforementioned problem of writers being too scared to experiment with multiple endings of equal significance in the first place. It's a vicious cycle.

Edited by LemiusK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, in Grisaia, all the routes still happen in broad strokes. Heaven's Feel is purpose built to be a subversion of Fate and UBW, so it has to come last. As for G-String, I find the sort of statement odd, because the one real complaint people have with it is that the alternate routes are irrelevant to the point they could've been cut out entirely without issue. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Rain Spectre said:

Well, in Grisaia, all the routes still happen in broad strokes. Heaven's Feel is purpose built to be a subversion of Fate and UBW, so it has to come last. As for G-String, I find the sort of statement odd, because the one real complaint people have with it is that the alternate routes are irrelevant to the point they could've been cut out entirely without issue. 

Exactly my point. You're repeating my point - that the problem lies with the plot, not the structure of multiple endings. Think about it. If Heaven's Feel wasn't a subversion, if G-String isn't a mystery thriller that needs an "answer route," would they need or feel like they need a 'true end'? It's not the multiple endings that's the issue here, it's the content (and perhaps even the genre) of the story.

By the way, in case you misunderstand, I'm not saying that those stories are bad because they have OTEs; I'm saying they need "One True Ends" because of what the stories are about.

As for Grisaia, "broad strokes" or not, they still tell a story of importance telling about the personality and backstories of the main characters. Whether you like it or not, that's what a story can be - an episodic story exploring multiple characters. It's a proper structure and can be satisfying to some other than yourself.

Edited by LemiusK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, onorub said:

CoD Black Ops 2 has multiple endings, lol.

Anyway, liking multiple endings better is kind of a personal thing, because i really like theorizing which character has a more desastrous outcome without protagonist interference.

Thanks for correcting me, I said replaced my comment with Halo in place but my argument still stands. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Happiness+ said:

For example, Ever17 annoyed my ass off with that kinda thing. It just comes out of nowhere.

Ahem, really? :michiru: I mean, Ever17 is one VN that really doesn't make much sense at all if you take the true ending away from it. It's essentially a sci-fi mystery, and they almost always need to have some kind of reveal to work in order not to feel incomplete. I guess, it would be possible to make a VN where each route has answers to the questions raised in other routes, but it would be way to difficult to make overall, and in most cases it simply isn't worth the effort. I mean, yeah, the ending itself kind of sucks, but you can't have a true route without giving it some ending.
Though, considering what you say about HF, it feels like we look for very different things in VNs we read. Off-topic:

Spoiler

 

I personally didn't even like UBW the first time I read it. I don't know, I'm just not really a fan of action in general, and these ordinary chuuni stories rarely work on me. I only learned to like it after I finished the anime, but imo it still pales in comparison to HF.

Rin is still the best girl though.

 

20 hours ago, MaggieROBOT said:

This is exactly why I think attaching routes of plot oriented VNs to heroes/heroines is a bad idea. Why do the MC have to simply forget about the main mystery just because he's not dating main X-chan or Y-kun? It's like they can't even help the main hero/heroine as a good friend...

Yeah, definitely... but to be honest it's more of a tradition at this point. The thing about multiple route VNs is that connecting routes to characters is the easiest and the only universal way to show the player approximately how many routes there are in the VN, and there's also a factor of fanservice, so we're probably stuck with this system for now. :makina:

@LemiusK: About "loosely connected stories". After some thinking, I realized that, if we only consider "plotge" we can probably roughly divide them into three groups with the relation of how they work with a "finishing" ending (I'm excluding linear types of stories where only one route really matters to begin with):

  1. Different kinds of mysteries. The one I can think of right away are aforementioned Ever17. These usually need some sort of conclusion, but it's still hectically possible to make a unique route structure that could avoid it, or it is also possible to leave to leave solving the mystery to the readers (even though I'm definitely not a fan of this approach... unless it's Umineko).
  2. The idea-based stories, where the main point of the story is to show to the reader one interesting idea what the author had in mind. All my previous argument is mostly valid for this group. The truth is, these type of stories typically need some enforced order, because that's how they work. Overall, these type of stories typically need to do the same things as an essay: a) introduce the idea; b) make your arguments about this ideas and different pros and cons; c) make some conclusion. Fate is a good example of this kind of story. Actually, we also have Saya no Uta as a good example of a story that's also idea-focused, but doesn't really have any enforced order at all. I would argue that it manages to get away with it since the endings are simply very short, and it still clearly has one concluding ending which, while may not be "true", still is highlighted by a different atmosphere and even a different ending song.
  3. World-building and character development focused stories. These types of stories typically have true endings, I believe, but overall they don't really need them in many cases. It actually highly depends on what exactly this story is trying to do. Muv-Luv works well with a true ending, because in the end it's mostly the true end that matters. Rewrite could probably work even if Moon and Terra weren't there. Sure, Moon still gives a lot more to the word-building that the character routes couldn't do, and the Terra mostly serves to conclude the "idea" (see the previous point), but, if we focus of the word-building in the character routes, it still was shown in the different routes pretty well, and a linear story would never be able to do that much without having multiple points of view. Actually, Tsukihime also goes here, and while it does technically have true endings for each heroine (come to think of it, Fate also does), but they aren't really "true" in any real sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...