What kind of ending structure do you prefer?

[Rain Spectre]

Kind of self-explanatory, this is. Just wanted to gauge opinions. Maybe give why if you feel like it?  

Edited November 28, 2018 by Rain Spectre

[LemiusK]

Ah crap. Voted too soon. lol Initially, I thought the poll was asking if I prefer VNs with multiple endings or just a single ending, which has a more obvious answer than what you're asking (if you know me by now).

But even though I picked "multiple endings of equal significance," I can't say that's the wrong answer for me either. "One true ends" are fine and all, as these stories often use the tropes of fate and destiny quite well. It gets even better with time travel stories, because then the story would explain how the protagonist is someone who remembers the past and gets to redo the story with all the "correct" choices and achieve that true end.

That said, One True Ends are way too restrictive for me in some cases. Take Cartagra for instance. I liked Hatsune's ending, but that wasn't the true end, and I was disappointed (as much as I like Kazuna). When you have a story that treats all its endings as "true" and equally relevant, there's just a more satisfying feeling like you're the one who picked such an ending rather than be forced into some "true end" the author intended for you, and for someone like me, player choice is always preferable.

Also, it feels unrealistic, and sometimes, having a true end feels like taking the predictable easy way out in writing a story. Life doesn't work that way, and having that ideal "True End" happy ending just feels hollow and contrived in some cases, because it also means that everything is going to work out in the end, no matter how sad or tragic the circumstances are. That's boring and predictable.

It's not like I hate OTEs either, mind you; like I said, there are many stories that utilize the OTE quite well as part of their story (like Steins;Gate and Muv-Luv Alternative), but then you have a cliched story like Clannad who forces you into Nagisa's route as the "True One". Bleh. Whatever. TOMOYO'S THE TRUE ONE, YOU HEAR ME?! 

[Canicheslayer]

For VNs with romance, I prefer to choose my own true end (my waifu(s)). Definitely, with a few exceptions (G-senjou no Maou), I am often disappointed when it is imposed (Kira☆Kira, Clannad,  Tsujidou-san no Jun'ai Road, Da Capo 3, Ayakashibito...).

Edited November 28, 2018 by Canicheslayer
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[Rain Spectre]

I'm of the opinion of One True End myself. I simply prefer that moment where I can go "I'm done" with no strings attached. 

[mitchhamilton]

i prefer multiple endings. one true ends are nice as theyre a good way to give the reader a sense of just "im done! no more!" but then you have something like majikoi where there are multiple endings, let me rephrase that multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple endings with majikoi and not just the first vn but its universe. there are the many fan disks but the very last one feels like the official, official ending to majikoi. so yeah, depends but i prefer multiples for hte most part.

[Rain Spectre]

Doesn't Majikoi already have a true ending though?

[bakauchuujin]

For me it depends on the VN. For instance Eroge sex and games makes sexy games and Princess Evangile works best as multi ending, for both of them I feel like it is important that each heroine's route manages to stand on its own as a true possibility rather than one route being much more important than the others. However some like euphoria or Date A Live Rinne Utopia works best as VNs with a true route. In their cases they manage to use the previous routes to build up the story towards the true end in a satisfying way. So for me it is not so much what I prefere as it is what I think fits the VN in question. 

[Ranzo]

I like good endings or ones that fit the overall story

There are many times when I liked the ending of one particular heroine over the designated true end of a vn (Like Kyou's and Tomoyo's end in Clannad)

And there are times when I enjoy the true end more than all the others (G Senj)

 

[adamstan]

10 minutes ago, bakauchuujin said:

For me it depends on the VN.

I'm the same. Both are good when used right. It's also okay with me if there's some "main heroine", who's given some more attention, even when there's no "True End". Like, in abovementioned Princess Evangile all routes stand on their own, but at the same time we could say that Rise was made somewhat "special" due to her backstory and the fact that she's the one who starts the whole thing.

It's also interesting when there's some attempt to tie route system itself into the story - like in Little Busters or YU-NO.

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by adamstan

[Funyarinpa]

Don't recall even finishing a VN without some sort of true or special ending.

They're more or less needed for a proper conclusion IMO. Maybe I'd consider the latter option if the genre went beyond "you date X different girls so there are X equivalent endings yay!" in terms of having equally significant endings. Saya no Uta might count perhaps, in which case it'd be a great example in favor. Though I think one of its endings can be taken as true.

[LemiusK]

19 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

They're more or less needed for a proper conclusion IMO.

Reading this line of thought, it got me thinking that writing a story with a single "true" conclusion is actually easier, more practical, and not to mention more effective in writing a good story. In terms of narrative writing, unless your story has heavy involvement with a multiverse or maybe even time-travel, having "multiple significant endings" is like having unnecessary filler for your main story (provided you have a "main story," and not just multiple side stories like most dating sims). "Less is more," as they say when advising people about writing. A story with too much of such filler would be meandering, and therefore would lack a strong impact.

Therefore, it makes sense why many VNs have chosen to use a "True Route", since it's the most "normal" and practical way to write a story. Furthermore, when you take into consideration that "a story is only as good as its ending," the usage of a "True End" is even more important.

That being said... I still stand by my preferences. I just love VNs with multiple routes and endings too much for the reasons I described in my prior post. It's just too much fun. Not every VN has to have some overly serious story. 

Furthermore, visual novel is a special medium where you have the opportunity to utilize multiple routes (or parallel universes) into your story, so to not use them to tell a better story that no other medium like books or anime could seems like a waste of opportunity. That's why I greatly admire those VNs that manage to tell a great story while still having multiple endings of equal significance. That's truly not an easy feat, and makes it an exceptional creation above others.

Edited November 28, 2018 by LemiusK

[Rain Spectre]

Maybe it works for romance games, but lacking a proper conclusion in a plot-focused work is downright unsatisfying to me...

[Dreamysyu]

I don't really care if one ending is considered more "canon" than the others (I honestly don't know why people care about canons that much). At the same time, even if it's not a "true" ending, I prefer VNs that have one ending that's supposed to be played last and gives some kind of the closure to the VN as a whole. Otherwise it sometimes starts to feel like a collection of loosely connected stories rather than one uniform work. A good example is Fate which does not have a real true ending, but the true ending to Heaven's Feel feels like a nice place to finish it.

I vote for OTO for that reason, but it's not like I care that much. The first Grisaia, for example, works absolutely fine even without a true ending, and Rakuen imo only makes it worse.

[LemiusK]

12 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

I don't really care if one ending is considered more "canon" than the others (I honestly don't know why people care about canons that much). At the same time, even if it's not a "true" ending, I prefer VNs that have one ending that's supposed to be played last and gives some kind of the closure to the VN as a whole. Otherwise it sometimes starts to feel like a collection of loosely connected stories rather than one uniform work. A good example is Fate which does not have a real true ending, but the true ending to Heaven's Feel feels like a nice place to finish it.

Two things.

1) A collection of loosely connected stories can be enjoyable in some cases, particularly slice-of-life VNs where you're just enjoying spending time with girls.

2) I hate, hate Heaven's Feel, period, because of what happened to Saber. Even UBW, my second most disliked route, at least had Saber in a rather 'happy' state. There's none of the so-called closure you talked about for Saber in HF, which ironically contradicts what you said.

Besides, hollow ataraxia, the sequel to FSN, completely invalidates HF as the True End by having Saber as a character.

Edit: Okay, never mind. I take back that last point. Ataraxia is a fandisc, not a sequel. My bad.

Adding on to what I said about "loosely connected stories." Not every story has to have a three-act structure. Similarly, not every story needs to have a single ending to be a good story. That limits the imagination of the writer, and stifles creativity IMO.

Edited November 28, 2018 by LemiusK

[Dreamysyu]

Just now, LemiusK said:

Besides, hollow ataraxia, the sequel to FSN, completely invalidates HF as the True End

Again, it is not the true end. What I wanted to say, its ending gives a nice closure to the themes of the themes of the story

Spoiler

and is more or less happy overall,

so I believe, it's a good final ending, not the true one.

4 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

I hate, hate Heaven's Feel, period, because of what happened to Saber.

How dare you! Heaven's Feel is basically the only thing that makes FSN better than a random 7/10 VN!

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Yeah, personal opinions exist.

Just now, LemiusK said:

A collection of loosely connected stories can be enjoyable in some cases, particularly slice-of-life VNs where you're just enjoying spending time with girls.

Yeah, I'm not saying it can't be. It's just not what I prefer to read.

[LemiusK]

Just now, Dreamysyu said:

How dare you! Heaven's Feel is basically the only thing that makes FSN better than a random 7/10 VN!

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.

.

Yeah, personal opinions exist.

Never get into a Type-Moon argument, because personal opinions be damned in them.  And yes, this is a Type-Moon argument... lol

Anyway, Sakura sucks. The end. Get salty please.  Also, 

Spoiler

tentacle rape in HF.

Same problem Muv-Luv Alternative had in the final arc, but on a much larger scale. At least that dubious h-scene in Alternative wasn't a significant part of its story. Nasu went full pervert on HF. Never go full pervert.
 

3 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

Again, it is not the true end. What I wanted to say, its ending gives a nice closure to the themes of the themes of the story

Yeah, I guess... if you don't care about one of its most important characters that began the story. It's unsatisfying, even if you treat it as a normal non-VN story. It's structurally unsound and broken if you consider HF to be the closure and "final act" of the story.

[Dreamysyu]

9 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Yeah, I guess... if you don't care about one of its most important characters that began the story.

She gets her own epilogue that unlocks after you finish Heaven's Feel though?

10 minutes ago, LemiusK said:

Never go full pervert.

[LemiusK]

7 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

She gets her own epilogue that unlocks after you finish Heaven's Feel though?

That's not HF's epilogue. That's the epilogue for the "Fate" route. Different universe and different route. Since the context of our argument here is that HF is the one giving closure, not "Fate" route, your point is... kinda dubious.

And besides, that's a pretty sloppy epilogue. It felt less like an epilogue and more like a pity-f*** for Saber fans. Worse, it's a last-minute pity-f*** that was only included in Realta Nua probably because the writers didn't want to put in effort for the complaints regarding HF.

Edited November 28, 2018 by LemiusK

[Akshay]

6 hours ago, LemiusK said:

1.Also, it feels unrealistic, and sometimes, having a true end feels like taking the predictable easy way out in writing a story. Life doesn't work that way, and having that ideal "True End" happy ending just feels hollow and contrived in some cases, because it also means that everything is going to work out in the end, no matter how sad or tragic the circumstances are. That's boring and predictable.

2.Besides, hollow ataraxia, the sequel to FSN, completely invalidates HF as the True End by having Saber as a character.

1.This isn't always the case. Tsukihime's true endings were pretty sad to the point where he had to make an alternate good ending to make people feel better. Rather than to force you into a certain ending, a lot of the times a true ending tries to show you an alternate perspective on events you have already seen. It requires information, which is shown in other routes, rather than just infodumping it in the true route. For example, in multiple route mysteries it acts as an "answer" kind of route, where everything you have learnt comes into perspective for the final twist. This doesn't make other possibilities (routes) untrue, rather they are part of the journey. They set your expectations and build up the ending. I wouldn't have enjoyed Cartagras endings so much without going over all the other ends first.

2. All of fates routes are true and cannon including the bad ends and fandiscs. There is an entire set of magic called the kaleidoscope (second true magic) that explains this.

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Akshay

[LemiusK]

15 minutes ago, Akshay said:

Rather than to force you into a certain ending, a lot of the times a true ending tries to show you an alternate perspective on events you have already seen. It requires information, which is shown in other routes, rather than just infodumping it in the true route. For example, in multiple route mysteries it acts as an "answer" kind of route, where everything you have learnt comes into perspective for the final twist. This doesn't make other possibilities (routes) untrue, rather they are part of the journey. They set your expectations and build up the ending. I wouldn't have enjoyed Cartagras endings so much without going over all the other ends first.

Well, yeah. A lot of the things you said are true. Visual novel is a rather complicated medium with a lot of potential for unorthodox storytelling like this. What I said before and what you quoted from my post, that's just a flaw some VNs with "True Ends" can face. It's like you said, "This isn't always the case." It really depends on how the writer structures the story.

But because it's such a complicated and fluid medium, where you can shape the story in such a wide variety of ways, I do find the traditional linear story with a single "True End" kind of a pity in some aspects. Again, this isn't always the case, but I've seen some VNs that don't make good use of the branching system VNs offer.

 

19 minutes ago, Akshay said:

2. All of fates routes are true and cannon including the bad ends and fandiscs. There is an entire set of magic called the kaleidoscope (second true magic) that explains this.

Yeah, I pretty much couldn't remember half of the lore of Fate (though I did remember that there's some form of in-game explanation for its multiple routes). Thanks for the reminder. Good to know that the fandisc is canon.

[Stormwolf]

If it's a visual novel which plays on romance it needs to have a heroine at it's center if it has a true ending. And not one who is shitty or too complicated to make me feel satisfied after finishing it.

Story based are good with true endings which ties everything together, and doesn't of course need to have a heroine in it's ending, unless the vn teases or require you to do romantic heroine endings before the true ending and finish off with a sol ending. That's the worst.

[KainLegacy535]

I kinda feel that the "true endings" often denied the other routes, so i dont like them, there are exceptions of course.

[Thyndd]

If I could get several conclusive endings each of which could stand on their own and be comparable in quality to the true routes of other VNs, sure, who wouldn't want that? However most of the times whenever there is a true route or ending it's either because the other routes don't have that much relevance to the main story that it's being told (G-senjou, for instance), or because it's necessary to tie all the other routes together and make the story feel complete as a whole. 

I don't think there are many, if any VNs out there with several endings that have the same weight for the heck of it. If someone wants to told a story, they will tell you THAT one story, and not 3 or 4 that could stand by their own. They are more likely to make sequels in that case, if they want to keep using that same setting. 

Dating sims and moeges in general are an exception, of course. But it's not like they are the pinnacle of story telling anyways. 

[LemiusK]

46 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

I don't think there are many, if any VNs out there with several endings that have the same weight for the heck of it. If someone wants to told a story, they will tell you THAT one story, and not 3 or 4 that could stand by their own. They are more likely to make sequels in that case, if they want to keep using that same setting. 

Well, it really depends on what you mean by "stand by their own." If you mean if they could work as individual stories and still be enjoyable, then look at Steins;Gate and its various endings which could work as separate stories, even if you don't find out about certain information. A lot of stories don't have the full information behind the mystery revealed by the end, but they nonetheless "stand by their own" as stories. Steins;Gate is no exception.

Then there's Ever17, specifically You's ending which felt the most like your generic romance. Not going to spoil the ending, but if you've finished You's route, you know what I mean by "generic." It pretty much felt like a complete end, even if the mystery wasn't solved.

And then and then, you have stuff like "The Fruits of Grisaia", which you can't really label as a "moege" per se (it's more like a charage). All of the routes have standalone stories that work just fine on their own. In fact, Grisaia is the ideal example that a VN CAN work in spite of a lack of "True End"; sometimes the experience is even improved by such a design.

Of course, Frontwank f***ed it all up in "The Labyrinth of Grisaia", but that's another topic.

Edited November 28, 2018 by LemiusK

[MaggieROBOT]

The "True End" of a VN for me is whatever ending I liked the most. Simple as that.

Of course I like some sort of conclusion, but it needs to be satisfying and well written for me to acknowledge it as the Best/True End.