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littleshogun

Suki Suki aka If You Love Me Then Say So Released

Suki Suki Polling  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite girl?

    • Goshogawara Yukki
      6
    • Himekami Ayame
      6
    • Komachi Mahiru
      2
    • Rinka
      7
    • Yataka 'Dude' Chiho
      0
  2. 2. What is your favorite route?

    • Himekami Ayame
      4
    • Yataka 'Dude' Chiho
      1
    • Komachi Mahiru
      2
    • Rinka
      11
    • Goshogawara Yukki
      3


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1 minute ago, Zakamutt said:

Given the reasoning here it seems to be a p decent loc, dudes w

that' doesn't seem like a good explanation at all, it is a total convertion of words, if the point was to make sense in english it doesn't work. Also we all know he hated the project from the start.

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1 minute ago, Denyal said:

that' doesn't seem like a good explanation at all, it is a total convertion of words, if the point was to make sense in english it doesn't work. Also we all know he hated the project from the start.

Why doesn't it make sense in English, though? Like, it totally does, dude.

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Just now, Zakamutt said:

Why doesn't it make sense in English, though? Like, it totally does, dude.

yea yea the meme is funny, but if Yuukianon wants to make a patch I'm not going to stop him, in fact I'll encourage him or help if I can

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12 minutes ago, Denyal said:

yea yea the meme is funny, but if Yuukianon wants to make a patch I'm not going to stop him, in fact I'll encourage him or help if I can

So as to not give the wrong impression, I unironically think it is a good decision.

That said, I totally support yuukianon, because not marking vowel length in romanized fapanese bothers me immensely w

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There are already shitstorms about localizaton style on vndb and r/visualnovels :P But I'm baffled by complaints about removing honorifics - my copy definitely has them intact. Unless for them removing onii-chan and 3rd person speech and removing horifics are the same thing, in which case they're just stupid :P

Nice comment from reddit thread:

Quote

I don't think this is necessarily an ESL/EFL thing. It seems to me like some people just fetishise the Japanese language, but also don't want to put in the effort to actually learn it. So instead they try to shoehorn Japanese into a form they do understand, resulting in something that is neither proper Japanese nor proper English. I can't imagine that the authors would be happy to see their work treated in this manner.

For now, other than Spanish instead of Engrish being hard to understand for me, I have no complaints about TL*. Well, I haven't met Chiho yet, and I'm doing Ayame's route first.

I think, anyone who got through Fureraba and Chrono Clock should be fine with it - it's pretty tame compared to those two ;)

Surprisingly, the more Japanese I know, the more I'm fine with non-literal translations. Strange...

 

*o, yeah, Yuuki > Yuki should be fixed, but that can be considered a typo ;)

Edited by adamstan

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21 minutes ago, adamstan said:

There are already shitstorms about localizaton style on vndb and r/visualnovels :P But I'm baffled by complaints about removing honorifics - my copy definitely has them intact. Unless for them removing onii-chan and 3rd person speech and removing horifics are the same thing, in which case they're just stupid :P

Nice comment from reddit thread:

For now, other than Spanish instead of Engrish being hard to understand for me, I have no complaints about TL*. Well, I haven't met Chiho yet, and I'm doing Ayame's route first.

I think, anyone who got through Fureraba and Chrono Clock should be fine with it - it's pretty tame compared to those two ;)

Surprisingly, the more Japanese I know, the more I'm fine with non-literal translations. Strange...

 

*o, yeah, Yuuki > Yuki should be fixed.

It's not strange. Well, it is strange to be fine with paying lots of money and know you were served a translation which said something else than what the voices of the characters tell you. But if you're like me then your head is correcting what the translator with his brain cell deficiency tries to rewrite into absurdity (worst is the spanish stuff). At least the easy parts, which to me are the parts i hear complaints about. What i don't get though is why people who seemingly don't like Japan too much reading vn's? It's pretty much a weeb, otaku hobby, i can't see it as anything else.

 

Edited by Stormwolf

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8 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

What i don't get though is why people who seemingly don't like Japan too much reading vn's? It's pretty much a weeb, otaku hobby, i can't see it as anything else.

But, as far as I got (something like third week of common route) I don't see anything radically "westernized", or whatever their complaints are about. I mean, it isn't "weeby" like old fan-TLs were, but apart from that Spanish thingy, I don't have that jarring feeling that I had with early Chrono Clock (haven't read updated version yet). I was already pretty okay with Fureraba, and SukiSuki is even tamer in its "localization" attempts.

 

As for that poor "onii-chan" - from what I see now, Chiho isn't imouto-type character, but a bokukko - so it wasn't meant to be "cute" oniichan, rather I'd say it was used in its second, or third meaning, as general reference to young men. In which case replacing it shouldn't be a problem. But I cannot be sure until I encounter those scenes personally.

But, for me, the lines of characters I met already (Yuuki, Aoi, Eri, Ayame, Maya) are all good.

Edited by adamstan

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4 minutes ago, adamstan said:

But, as far as I got (something like third week of common route) I don't see anything radically "westernized", or whatever their complaints are about. I mean, it isn't "weeby" like old fan-TLs were, but apart from that Spanish thingy, I don't have that jarring feeling that I had with early Chrono Clock (haven't read updated version yet). I was already pretty okay with Fureraba, and SukiSuki is even tamer in its "localization" attempts.

 

As for that poor "onii-chan" - from what I see now, Chiho isn't imouto-type character, but a bokukko - so it wasn't meant to be "cute" oniichan, rather I'd say it was used in its second, or third meaning, as general reference to young men. In which case replacing it shouldn't be a problem. But I cannot be sure until I encounter those scenes personally.

But, for me, Yuuki's, Ayame's and Eri's lines are all good.

Perhaps she's not an imouto type character, but whats wrong with that? Am i the only one a bit tired of all the copy paste heroines with the same faces, same hairstyles and same personalities across multiple games? If the dev changes up things then i respect that.

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Just now, Stormwolf said:

Perhaps she's not an imouto type character, but whats wrong with that?

Nothing, I wasn't complaining. I was just saying that since she's neither imouto-type or actual imouto, translating her "onii-chan" usage shouldn't be seen as something so wrong that it would warrant pitchfork-wielding ;)

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Yeah, that may be the issue, but we have to remember that said "onii-chan" has various other meanings besides it's primary affectionate reference to big brother, depending on context. So, if that's the case, actually leaving it in could sometimes give wrong impression.

 

Example, with genders reversed, but similar thing:

In "Yoake", there was scene where Jin played rude client at restaurant, during Feena's training. He referred to her as " 'nee-chan", and it had nothing to do with "sister" meaning, but just meant "girl", "miss" or whatever - and was translated as such.

EDIT (from reddit again):

Quote

I'm not the biggest fan of the change, but it does make sense. Chiho speaks in a masculine way (bokukko) and her use of onii-chan is not familial like most would expect it to, but used in a way friendly guys can refer to each other in a familiar way. In that sense, dude is not that far from the mark.

If that's indeed the case, then I'm ok with it, and leaving it as "onii-chan" would be confusing, as it already looks like those that complain about it mostly are thinking about "familial"/"imouto-like" use.

Edited by adamstan

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42 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

It's not strange. Well, it is strange to be fine with paying lots of money and know you were served a translation which said something else than what the voices of the characters tell you. But if you're like me then your head is correcting what the translator with his brain cell deficiency tries to rewrite into absurdity (worst is the spanish stuff). At least the easy parts, which to me are the parts i hear complaints about. What i don't get though is why people who seemingly don't like Japan too much reading vn's? It's pretty much a weeb, otaku hobby, i can't see it as anything else.

 

But translating what a character is literally saying is not the same as translating the meaning of the text into an equivalent in English. 

To illustrate: I saw an example somewhere (not this game) of someone complaining about お邪魔します being translated as something like "So this is your home". The Japanese literally says "I am intruding", but who says that in English? No one! In this case, "So this is your home, huh" is not a wrong translation, it's an equivalent phrase that reads naturally in English; it coveys a similar intent without coming off as awkward.

And for people who argue that "well they say it in Japan!"; sure, but they also speak Japanese in Japan, so if you're looking for that level of equivalency you're better off just reading in Japanese.

That being said, I don't necessarily agree with all the localization choices my fellow translators make, and I'm sure they don't agree with all of mine! I just think that as fans we're better off focusing on complaining about genuinely bad translations, rather than throwing around insults (actual constructive criticism is fine!) over things that basically amount to personal preference.

Edited by meru

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4 minutes ago, meru said:

But translating what a character is literally saying is not the same as translating the meaning of the text into an equivalent in English. 

To illustrate: I saw an example somewhere (not this game) of someone complaining about お邪魔します being translated as something like "So this is your home". The Japanese literally says "I am intruding", but who says that in English? No one! In this case, "So this is your home, huh" is not a wrong translation, it's an equivalent phrase that reads naturally in English; it coveys a similar intent without coming off as awkward.

And for people who argue that "well they say it in Japan!"; sure, but they also speak Japanese in Japan, so if you're looking for that level of equivalency you're better off just reading in Japanese.

That being said, I don't necessarily agree with all the localization choices my fellow translators make, and I'm sure they don't agree with all of mine! I just think that as fans we're better off focusing on complaining about genuinely bad translations, rather than throwing around insults (actual constructive criticism is fine!) over things that basically amount to personal preference.

I do agree with basically everything you've said. Not everything is translatable in the literal sense, but translators often changes even things that do, and that does irk me. You can hear a single word said in Japanese and read a whole lot of nonsense in the translation for example. Fureraba will be the greatest offender and i'll never budge on that.

And there is no thing such as constructive criticism on the internet i'm afraid as you'll get swarmed by fans regardless of what you've said. I personally don't care about bottom feeders, but it still does make constructive criticism hard to convey.

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15 minutes ago, Rain Spectre said:

The thing that gets me...this isn't the first time Arunaru removed "Onii-chan" in every way from the characters speech pattern. He did it as well in Evenicle, a much higher profile release. Why all the complaining here and not there?

Because this one replaces it with'dude' and the other replaces it with the name. 

Chiho doesn't know his name, though, so that wouldn't work here.

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4 hours ago, Zander said:

I'd be pretty careful about saying that. Normally I'd take it as a joke, but the fact that people are making full-fledged, genuine death threats towards localisers lately is... sad, to say the least. Not to mention a constant barrage of personal insults, among other things. I'm all for reasoned criticism, but whew lad

The translator has responded to criticism on Twitter, and it's pretty fair tbh. They talked about why they made the decisions they made, among other things. The majority of the game appears to be well-translated beyond the localisation decisions which are naturally subjective. These people are human beings doing their best to faithfully represent the text. They are not secretly plotting with localisation companies to cuck every last visual novel fan that gets off to seeing 'onii-chan' atleast it's relatively unlikely

Besides, 'dude' is hilarious. It spawned memes, it's great, and in context it even makes some sense.

A noble soul out there is working to produce a patch so that everyone can be happy. Bless them. Bless everyone. Be peaceful, be calm. Love each other. We're all humans. 

:Teeku:

 

 

Okay, don't kill him, just fire or don't put him on any moege in future. That guy clearly doesn't understand the target audience. Those who okay with this is just minority who circle jerk with him or similar "translators" who like to use translation as form of expression by thinking of yourself as an actual writer (in the end its an adaptation for your own pleasure with inflicting your opinion, trying to change things that you dislike).

 

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1 minute ago, ShinRaikdou said:

Okay, don't kill him, just fire or don't put him on any moege in future. That guy clearly doesn't understand the target audience. Those who okay with this is just minority who circle jerk with him or similar "translators" who like to use translation as form of expression by thinking of yourself as an actual writer (in the end its an adaptation for your own pleasure with inflicting your opinion, trying to change things that you dislike).

And who doesn't want to connect with a target audience who requests them to be fired for not leaving in onii-chan in their TL! ^^

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9 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

This was clearly not the only thing people complained about..

Other ones were:
 - removing honorifics - simply not true, honorifics are kept in this TL.
 - removing Mahiru's 3rd person speech - same situation as with Meguru in Sanoba - it is normal, if I remember correctly @Decay explained it pretty well
 - Spanish instead of Engrish - that's the only one I could agree with, because for most non-American/ESL readers from around the world (myself included) that Spanish will be almost completely unreadable - unlike Engrish to Japanese readers.

I think best solution would be to convert this Engrish into some butchered-english equivalent, maybe misspelling it, or writing pseudo-phonetic transcriptions?

Edited by adamstan

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8 minutes ago, Dergonu said:

And who doesn't want to connect with a target audience who requests them to be fired for not leaving in onii-chan in their TL! ^^

Onii-chan is not a major issue here though (we can easily fix it). One of them is spanish. He could put engrish lines into brackets like everyone normal people do (Grisaia for example), but no, that's not funny enough and doesn't have immersive experience, right?

Edited by ShinRaikdou

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10 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

This was clearly not the only thing people complained about..

While I was obviously being sarcastic, true, there are several other complaints, none of which are really that big of a deal, and all of which the TLer himself have addressed properly. The fact that people can get this triggered over small details like these never ceases to amaze me.
Meanwhile, no one actually looks at the overall quality of TLs, and only zone in on the lack of honorifics, changes to speech patterns and so on. If you don't want to buy a game over the lack of an onii-chan here and a dude there, fine. But actually suggesting a person be fired over a localization choice that makes perfectly good sense is absolutely absurd, and is frankly insulting to our profession as a whole. Translators need to make some decisions during their TLs and they won't always please everyone. I'd say more, but Meru pretty much summed it up above pretty perfectly, so I'll leave things there.

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1 minute ago, Dergonu said:

While I was obviously being sarcastic, true, there are several other complaints, none of which are really that big of a deal, and all of which the TLer himself have addressed properly. The fact that people can get this triggered over small details like these never ceases to amaze me.
Meanwhile, no one actually looks at the overall quality of TLs, and only zone in on the lack of honorifics, changes to speech patterns and so on. If you don't want to buy a game over the lack of an onii-chan here and a dude there, fine. But actually suggesting a person be fired over a localization choice that makes perfectly good sense is absolutely absurd, and is frankly insulting to our profession as a whole. Translators need to make some decisions during their TLs and they won't always please everyone. I'd say more, but Meru pretty much said it all above pretty perfectly, so I'll leave things there.

Yes, why discuss this further? You've easily accepted his reasons which means you're likely of the same mind from the get-go. So any discussion is pretty much pointless.

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As a fellow weeb I can actually understand both sides of the discussion, but I'm inclined to be more lenient towards the translation. 

For those who complain about Honorifics, 3rd person speech and other idiosyncrasies of the japanese language. Think about it. Imagine if this wasn't a Japanese-English TL, but a, for the sake of a weird example, Quechua- English TL. Would you he so set on keeping intact all the little quirks of the language as well? 

Yes, I understand that most of the audience will already be somewhat familiar with the japanese language and culture, but that's something a professional translator cannot (or should not) take for granted. They need to deliver the experience in a way it looks like it was never in another language in the first place. Which is pretty much impossible, but they should aim for the closest they can get. 

That said, that 'dude' is still hilarious as fuck :makina:

Edited by Thyndd

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