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This toxic attitude regarding translations needs to end.

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10 hours ago, tymmur said:

In short: the dub is essentially a rewrite, not a translation and you will not get the same experience as with the subs. In particular jokes and gags have a tendency to vanish in the dub, which is bad for a joke heavy title.

Whew, good that I watched subbed version ;)

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It's pretty a reasonable stance for people to demand only the best translation possible in a given Visual Novel, we should not allow and condone half ass, passionless translations projects see the light of day.  We deserve only the best VNs translations available today and it is within our right to make such a request to publishers like Sekai Project, Jast USA, and Mangagamer etc... 

Perhaps this example might explain things better... I'll rather read/play all the tentacle rape VNs in Mangagamer than read this monstrosity... 

 

I understand where you are coming from dude however you must at least hold some sense of standard when it comes to VN translations, don't settle for anything less... Just listen to what the Old Guards here has to say in this regard.  They possess... Unrivaled wisdom about VNs since playing/reading them is similar to their life's work...

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As others have pointed out, the idea that anime, video games, or LNs don't have their share of translation arguments is... not correct, shall we say.  I'm going to guess you're new to those communities.

Back in the early fansub days, in the early 90s, when people had to mail VHS tapes around ($12 and SASE for 2 episodes!), there was vicious fighting.  Anyone remember the Ranma Wars?  Or the fights over the Shinsengumi subs of Ruroni Kenshin?

Even in the 2000s, people used to mock most of the Inuyasha funsubbers,  The joke in the community was that every new fanboy (and many a fangirl) would cut their teeth on Inuyasha, releasing many terrible subs in the process, before either giving up or growing up and moving on to real shows.

Even now, you still get complaints.  Remember this meme?  Or sites like this one?

 

The basic fact of the matter is that translation is an art, not a science.  And as Clephas said, even good translators disagree over things.  Honorifics, slang... I got into a fight with one translator over contractions, FFS.  There will always be disagreement, and there will always be jerks who make a big deal out of it.  Your bigger claim, that a bad translation is better than no translation, is very much a matter of opinion.  To me, it's trivial to prove you wrong - just run a VN script through Babelfish, and try to read what comes out.

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This is why companies like SakuraGame can still sell their MTL games on Steam without giving a damn: People will still give them money with the excuse of "better than nothing".

Edited by Satsuki

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Let's just say that this topic will always attract the toxic attitude, as long as people wouldn't like to change his/her attitude. All we can do is that we should decided by ourselves in regard of the translation, whether you'd find it bad or good although in the end the translator should do their best to have the translated VN story to be understandable by the reader no matter what. Also it should be obvious that the translation shouldn't be MTL one, like Your Diary or Flyable Heart or all of SG's translation.

Edited by littleshogun

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5 hours ago, Satsuki said:

This is why companies like SakuraGame can still sell their MTL games on Steam without giving a damn: People will still give them money with the excuse of "better than nothing".

I think it's fine to dissuade people from buying things like that, but being abusive is always too far. Which is what I get from the term "toxic".

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I don't think it's that toxic here on Fuwa compared to elsewhere. I have seen statements like "ïf you  aren't able to read the VN the way you are intended to read it, you have no business reading VNs" (essentially banning all translations). "VNs should all be rewritten to adapt into American culture because people don't get Japanese culture. Also non-Americans shouldn't read VNs if they can't accept American culture everywhere". "Doki should be banned from releasing anime subs. They use British English, which is unacceptable".

 

Fuwa bashing tend to be based closer to facts in the translations and generally more reasonable. If you release something, which breaks immersion and general readability, you essentially ruin the VN. People rightfully get upset when they pay for what should be a masterpiece and it's worse than just garbage: not only isn't it enjoyable, it spoils reading the VN in Japanese as well, meaning for a number of VN readers (the people who are most into VNs), reading the translation is much worse than not reading it. If you use a machine translation yourself, you know what you get (or should know). If you pay a human to do a proper job, you want a proper job. That is essentially what the translation bashing on Fuwa is all about.

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Being a part of a fan-tl, I can tell you first hand what I have an issue with. I have no experience working in a VN company, so I cannot speak for them. 

To be honest, I welcome any criticism to our project. The problem is when people shit on your work and then going and say "well it's your work" and then proceed to tell you to work on English/Japanese. That effectively stalls a project for months and months, which is why you're seeing a lot of fan-tls stall. Unlike when fan-tls first time into play, criticism is much more prevalent because of a "set" of rules and expectations set by the industry and the individuals that work within it. So now do you not only have less fan-tls because of them being merged into companies, you have people becoming demoralized and trying to learn a language, which that in itself isn't bad.

When you drill into somebody new that it needs to be "perfect", that's when problems come up. It can be very overwhelming to new people, causing them to write mistake after mistake or slow/stall their TLs/edits to a crawl in fear of looking bad. Logically, it's better to come back to it later when you know the language better to "save face", but people have lives and what might have been a completed TL with some mistakes is now an indefinitely stalled TL. I feel it would only be fair to have the same standards that were set in place when fan-TLs first started. Currently, the only people that are learning are those that have already learned from the mistakes years ago before people became more critical of people's work. New TLs/editors are actively being discouraged because of the hypocrisy that the community in general is showing. Expecting a good tl and then telling them to learn it themselves is a horrible message to give off, especially if most of the people in current projects learned by doing, rather than researching.

In all honesty, *WE* are the reason fan TLs are dying. There's a major experience gap between people who have done this for years and those that are just starting out and people aren't willing to personally mentor or become more active in current projects to share what they've learned from the mistakes they've made in the past and instead say they're shit, writing stuff in Japanese to make fun of them so people who are just starting out can't read it and only a joke that "experienced" people would get or just putting people down, saying that they'll help them if they "get better" (which makes no sense and goes back to the perfection piece I mentioned earlier).

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Now, it isn't entirely the companies and community's fault either. There's also those people with low self esteem who take constructive criticism as shit talking. NOBODY would spend an hour on a post unless they either hated somebody or genuinely want to help, regardless of why they would. Those that can't take constructive criticism have to accept that it's part of learning and if there's any help and knowledge to be gained. If anything will speed up learning more than looking at books, it's constructive criticism on your own work. Doesn't mean you have to go re-writing and re-translating the entire script or that it has to be perfect. That takes months and months and can kill projects. Yes, this makes it imperfect and puts the quality lower than an official TL. Here's the thing: does it still read well and get the meaning and characterization across? If so, you've done your job. People who know Japanese and English are the toughest critics, and it's understandable. But there's a fine line being being helpful and demoralizing the team.

I've seen so much destructive criticism from outside our project not for translation errors, but because they prefer literal over liberal, or something that's related more to preference. I trust my TL to do what he needs to do, and that could be why our project is still alive. He's come back after 2 years and is re-TLing it and he's actually pretty good with idioms and English. I encourage him to write liberally as I correct him or use more appropriate words. It's pretty interesting tbh how far we've come since our starting point two years ago. Some people like it more, some people like it less. But there's no doubt in my mind he's gotten better, and I also feel that I can match his expectations as the editor. If other people feel differently, then that's understandable. But that's life, and if people want to help, I'll listen. If people don't, then there's no point in listening. It's why I'm usually not demoralized, yet continue to learn what I need to for the team.

Also, it's a bit idiotic to use destructive criticism on a TL. Giving resources to help get better doesn't count as constructive either because of how overwhelming it can be learning English from textbooks, as well as some people learn more by doing rather than researching and studying. You lose TLs that way, and that's one of the ways projects can die.Take some time away from what you're doing and help out. They'll probably make the same mistakes over and over again, but that's learning and expecting people to pick up what others are saying right off the bat is ridiculous and unfair. 

Therefore, it's everyone's fault. Sure, there's some blame that should be placed more on others, but people also have to be able to take criticism, since there's people out there with patience who *are* actively trying to help and are pushed aside due to fear of destructive criticism from them. Some people are also truly stubborn and just don't want help, which can't really be helped by anyone. You gotta accept help in order to be helped, after all. It's just a big mess in general and there's so many ways you can look at it. My opinion is very unpopular though among certain individuals, but I consider it the reality we live in. There's so many other things I can say about this topic, but I'll save it for another day ;)

Edited by AdventSign

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On 10/7/2018 at 5:20 AM, Kiriririri said:

TLDR u all dumb in this thread

  Hide contents

願望は二律背反
押し付けの理性なんて信じない
あっちを立てる気もないし
こっちを立てる気だってまるでない
人間関係面倒で及び要
話を聞けば巻き込まれる
良いことなんかあるわけないじゃない
それでも誰かがいなけりゃダメなんだ

 

Damn. You got me dude. I should have read your comment before I posted. It's unfortunate half the people here won't be able to read your ballad. I'm sure it must be a masterpiece that only a true maestro like yourself could come up with. Please enlighten us unworthy, filthy, English only peasants to your wonderful creation.  

Edited by AdventSign

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2 hours ago, AdventSign said:

Damn. You got me dude. I should have read your comment before I posted. It's unfortunate half the people here won't be able to read your ballad. I'm sure it must be a masterpiece that only a true maestro like yourself could come up with. Please enlighten us unworthy, filthy, English only peasants to your wonderful creation.  

"Roses are blue,
violets are red,
I have to go to the bathroom."
- Rough translation

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1 hour ago, EntireInternet said:

"Roses are blue,
violets are red,
I have to go to the bathroom."
- Rough translation

Wow. Your translation skills are off the charts. The meaning and remaining faithful to its origins certainly shined through. All we need is a good editor and we will have a short VN! In order to do it justice, there's only one man who we can entrust with this special task: we need Freddy, master editor and translator extraordinaire. Plz, if you can read this, help edit this work of art. Maybe we can sell this work of art to JAST or MangaGamer if it's good enough. :objection:

Edited by AdventSign

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5 hours ago, adamstan said:

Maybe we should produce different variants, like in that meme linked before? ;)

That's a good idea, though you have to be careful. Dem localization companies might hit you with a Cease & Desist if they find out you're doing another variant of what Kiririri is doing. He is a well-renown translator in multiple companies. One of the biggest guys around. Even bigger than Moogy. If we are going to make a different varient, we should release it anonymously to avoid a C&D using a VPN.

We got dis boys. Sharing is caring, after all. People have forgotten how to share, so it's important to remind them. :thumbsup:

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13 hours ago, AdventSign said:

Being a part of a fan-tl, I can tell you first hand what I have an issue with. I have no experience working in a VN company, so I cannot speak for them. 

To be honest, I welcome any criticism to our project. The problem is when people shit on your work and then going and say "well it's your work" and then proceed to tell you to work on English/Japanese. That effectively stalls a project for months and months, which is why you're seeing a lot of fan-tls stall. Unlike when fan-tls first time into play, criticism is much more prevalent because of a "set" of rules and expectations set by the industry and the individuals that work within it. So now do you not only have less fan-tls because of them being merged into companies, you have people becoming demoralized and trying to learn a language, which that in itself isn't bad.

When you drill into somebody new that it needs to be "perfect", that's when problems come up. It can be very overwhelming to new people, causing them to write mistake after mistake or slow/stall their TLs/edits to a crawl in fear of looking bad. Logically, it's better to come back to it later when you know the language better to "save face", but people have lives and what might have been a completed TL with some mistakes is now an indefinitely stalled TL. I feel it would only be fair to have the same standards that were set in place when fan-TLs first started. Currently, the only people that are learning are those that have already learned from the mistakes years ago before people became more critical of people's work. New TLs/editors are actively being discouraged because of the hypocrisy that the community in general is showing. Expecting a good tl and then telling them to learn it themselves is a horrible message to give off, especially if most of the people in current projects learned by doing, rather than researching.

In all honesty, *WE* are the reason fan TLs are dying. There's a major experience gap between people who have done this for years and those that are just starting out and people aren't willing to personally mentor or become more active in current projects to share what they've learned from the mistakes they've made in the past and instead say they're shit, writing stuff in Japanese to make fun of them so people who are just starting out can't read it and only a joke that "experienced" people would get or just putting people down, saying that they'll help them if they "get better" (which makes no sense and goes back to the perfection piece I mentioned earlier).

it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to not be terrible if anything. People here needs a serious reality check with this literature phd requirement to translate a vn. Especially if it's a fan tl group who spends their free time translating because they enjoy it and doing you a serious favour in the process. You will get a handful of people whining about a sentence being written a bit differently than how it actually is in Japanese or complain about some typos here and there, but then you have the silent masses who enjoy the translation and is overjoyed that they can finally read a vn that will 99% sure never see an official translation. And who's to say an official translation would be any better? I see plenty wrong with super delayed official releases. Mistakes so obvious that it makes me not believe all those checks and rechecks actually took place. But for a fan tl it doesn't bother me one bit as i appreciate the time and work being done.

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3 hours ago, Stormwolf said:

it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to not be terrible if anything. People here needs a serious reality check with this literature phd requirement to translate a vn. Especially if it's a fan tl group who spends their free time translating because they enjoy it and doing you a serious favour in the process. You will get a handful of people whining about a sentence being written a bit differently than how it actually is in Japanese or complain about some typos here and there, but then you have the silent masses who enjoy the translation and is overjoyed that they can finally read a vn that will 99% sure never see an official translation. And who's to say an official translation would be any better? I see plenty wrong with super delayed official releases. Mistakes so obvious that it makes me not believe all those checks and rechecks actually took place. But for a fan tl it doesn't bother me one bit as i appreciate the time and work being done.

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the industry don't feel that way. Here's the thing: when people learn what's right and what's wrong, they start seeing errors which distract themselves from the VN. To be honest, it's the same with most things. Its up to the person how to deal with it and the easiest is to criticise it and tell them to learn more before continuing. The more time consuming option is working with them rather than demoralizing them (some people sincerely don't have time to help, others don't want to because of no patience). Another reason why I was against the standardized rules that are in place for the industry on what's right and wrong, though my TL is pretty uptight about it. We make a good pair now that I think about it.

 

Its important to have standardized rules for *yourself* that's *acceptable* to the majority (basically, the people NOT in companies and are VN fanatics like us). Believe it or not, the more critical people are a minority, and only if it's *truly* bad do you get flame wars by multiple people, which you're probably better off going back and either fixing errors or find those that can teach you them ASAP. Its not good to have a bad patch out for years without fixing it. The damage might be done, but it should be fixed out of respect for the VN and those that haven't read it yet.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. People like Kiririri or whatever the hell is name is... He's one person. Ultimately, you'll piss off somebody for some reason, so as long as most people enjoy it, it's accurate, and flows well, then you've accomplished what a fan TL is supposed to be. Though if one wants to improve their skills, they should listen to those that try to legitimately help.

Edited by AdventSign

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4 hours ago, Stormwolf said:

it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to not be terrible if anything. People here needs a serious reality check with this literature phd requirement to translate a vn. Especially if it's a fan tl group who spends their free time translating because they enjoy it and doing you a serious favour in the process. You will get a handful of people whining about a sentence being written a bit differently than how it actually is in Japanese or complain about some typos here and there, but then you have the silent masses who enjoy the translation and is overjoyed that they can finally read a vn that will 99% sure never see an official translation. And who's to say an official translation would be any better? I see plenty wrong with super delayed official releases. Mistakes so obvious that it makes me not believe all those checks and rechecks actually took place. But for a fan tl it doesn't bother me one bit as i appreciate the time and work being done.

I agree here. Like, my most anticipated release is Amagami, and as has been said, I wouldn't be able to read it at all if it weren't for the team putting in the effort to translate it and also make sure the VN works with the translation. That's just one of 4 VNs in the same series (I mean spiritual successor here not literal series): KimiKiss, Photo Kano, Reco Love being the others, and of those 4 two have anime and/or manga releases that divert from the source VNs. That's just an example of one series, but again, those are all VNs that probably won't get localizations, meaning it's either hope for a fan translation, or learn Japanese, which isn't necessarily possible for some people and will also take rather a long time. 

I can understand wanting to have the translation be an excellent one, but TBH at the end of the day I'd rather be able to read the story, and doing so in English is (for me) far easier and faster than doing so in Japanese. I can understand too (and sympathise with) having higher standards for an official release (for obvious reasons), but again, I care most about the story, and if I care enough about the story to want to read it then having a readable translation is what matters to me. It's the same thing with H-scenes. Do you get the full content and breadth of the experience that you would if you were reading the original release? No, but what you *do* get is in a format that's easier to digest and still provides you with the story that you couldn't read otherwise.  

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1 hour ago, AdventSign said:

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the industry don't feel that way. Here's the thing: when people learn what's right and what's wrong, they start seeing errors which distract themselves from the VN. To be honest, it's the same with most things. Its up to the person how to deal with it and the easiest is to criticise it and tell them to learn more before continuing. The more time consuming option is working with them rather than demoralizing them (some people sincerely don't have time to help, others don't want to because of no patience). Another reason why I was against the standardized rules that are in place for the industry on what's right and wrong, though my TL is pretty uptight about it. We make a good pair now that I think about it.

 

Its important to have standardized rules for *yourself* that's *acceptable* to the majority (basically, the people NOT in companies and are VN fanatics like us). Believe it or not, the more critical people are a minority, and only if it's *truly* bad do you get flame wars by multiple people, which you're probably better off going back and either fixing errors or find those that can teach you them ASAP. Its not good to have a bad patch out for years without fixing it. The damage might be done, but it should be fixed out of respect for the VN and those that haven't read it yet.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. People like Kiririri or whatever the hell is name is... He's one person. Ultimately, you'll piss off somebody for some reason, so as long as most people enjoy it, it's accurate, and flows well, then you've accomplished what a fan TL is supposed to be. Though if one wants to improve their skills, they should listen to those that try to legitimately help.

You said it yourself, you cant please everybody and people will look for things to bring you down with. Screw industry standards. they get paid to work excessively on the translation, you dont. And the awesome thing about being a fan tl group is that at the end of the day you dont answer to anybody outside the group. Keep that in mind. Its always good to listen to contructive critisism and advice of course without feeling insulted and throwing a tantrum, but the obnoxious ones should be ignored.

Edited by Stormwolf

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I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely concerned for the VN scene. I want both the industry and fan TLS to flourish together rather than feeling like fan TLS are a stepping stone to get a job. Just like volunteering, it's critical that fan TLS exist and aren't looked down on like they currently are. As a fan TL group, we want to be taken seriously and respected for what we do. We are going to make mistakes, but we will learn from them.

I'm hoping the TL in our group will keep translating niche VNs that won't see much of a profit over here, bit still have a cult following. The way fan TLS are viewed and talked about though... My translator wants to be taken seriously and it's pushing him more toward wanting a job in the industry. Its a shame that it has to come to that to gain the respect of his peers. I don't really give a shit about how people view me tbh, but I understand why he cares so much. I'm sure many other fan TL groups feel the same. Putting in months (or years) of learning Japanese and English only to be constantly criticised (regardless on whether it's deserved or not) makes them feel worthless. Learning for years how to translate and then be told it's still not good enough... What message does that send to them?

Someday, I hope fan TLS won't be treated as a joke. The only way they aren't is when they have a "well-known" translator or editor on their team, and it shouldn't take that to gain the respect of their peers.

I'm glad that this conversation hasn't taken a turn for the worst. I assume most people agree with us few who are talking partially at the very least. I think we've all been looked down on at some point in our lives, so it's relatable. Its something that we shouldn't do as a community. Id rather not associate with people or a community like that.

Edited by AdventSign

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The day a fan tl group selects something other than a regular moege and chooses something people have hyped up and have waited for for a long time to play, then i suspect you'll get quite the following.

You can have a masters degree in both japanese and english and people will still complain. But this is how the world is. Cant do anything about that.

Too bad about the translator though. I'm sure ambitions have been the death of many groups and translations. Both finished and unfinished. Important that everyone is on the same wavelength or drama and disolvement will likely happen.

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40 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

The day a fan tl group selects something other than a regular moege and chooses something people have hyped up and have waited for for a long time to play, then i suspect you'll get quite the following.

You can have a masters degree in both japanese and english and people will still complain. But this is how the world is. Cant do anything about that.

Too bad about the translator though. I'm sure ambitions have been the death of many groups and translations. Both finished and unfinished. Important that everyone is on the same wavelength or drama and disolvement will likely happen.

Eh. I have little need or desire for a following. We just work on whatever we feel like. Plus, you run the risk of getting a C&D which, although I wouldn't care too much about, the other team members would. 

I really hope that more translators come up and try some translations like how people used to years ago. Not many groups left.

Regardless, it seems people don't have much more to add or say, so I guess we're all in agreement with each other. My mission has been achieved. :P

Hopefully things will get better for fan tls with these perspectives that people have spoken about.

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17 minutes ago, AdventSign said:

Eh. I have little need or desire for a following. We just work on whatever we feel like. Plus, you run the risk of getting a C&D which, although I wouldn't care too much about, the other team members would. 

I really hope that more translators come up and try some translations like how people used to years ago. Not many groups left.

Regardless, it seems people don't have much more to add or say, so I guess we're all in agreement with each other. My mission has been achieved. :P

Hopefully things will get better for fan tls with these perspectives that people have spoken about.

If people didnt crave attention and a following then we wouldnt have public web sites for the group with progress trackers and comment fields. Its human nature to want praise for their work, just a shame it sometimes backfires with a c&d demand as you say.

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43 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

If people didnt crave attention and a following then we wouldnt have public web sites for the group with progress trackers and comment fields. Its human nature to want praise for their work, just a shame it sometimes backfires with a c&d demand as you say.

I suppose so. Never thought about comments and trackers that way. I just enjoy having work done and having it done well. 
I just write stuff that I feel fits or is right, both in the TL project and on Fuwanovel. I don't expect people to respond.
Guess it's for personal satisfaction, if anything. Nothing feels as good as completing something to the best of your ability, and is hopefully something you can be proud of.

Just want to voice my opinion and reasoning behind it and perhaps gain a different perspective from those who are willing to contest those opinions.
A quote from Bakemonogatari: "I don't know everything. I only know what I know."
It's the main reason why I still communicate on here. Not because of attention or wanting to stir shit up.
I personally have no need for fame or popularity. I'm going to fade away anyway, so I'd rather do what I love because I love it.

I suppose everybody on here is different though. We all have different motivations and goals. This is simply one of the few things I enjoy doing.

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