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SeniorBlitz

More VNs with the (infamous) Ladder Structure like Grisaia and G-Sen

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So apparently the VNDb tag I proposed (Ladder Structure) got approved, now clephas officially hates me (joking). xoP

But anyway do you persons know any other VNs that have this structure? Or if any of the VNs I tagged don't follow this structure, so I accidentally tagged them and I should revoke my vote?

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

The Newton VN also follows this structure.

Btw off topic, I was curious whether this VN is Multiple Route Mystery or not ('cause of the recommend route order)?

Edited by SeniorBlitz

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7 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

Btw off topic, I was curious whether this VN is Multiple Route Mystery or not ('cause of the recommend route order)?

On the structure of Newton and the Apple Tree:

Spoiler

No. One of the routes is necessary for the true end, but the others basically mean you failed to accomplish the ultimate objective. They are side routes in the truest sense and contribute nothing to the resolution of the plot in the main one.

Edited by Mr Poltroon

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Yeah, I agree with @Corrupted: I don't think you can consider Grisaia in this camp (assuming we're talking about Fruit here; I don't know how the other games work).

Looking through the VNs I've marked completed on VNDB, the only one which I recall working this way is Funbag Fantasy, which does a full split off into a different ending for the other girls if you stop off the "true route" path early to pick one of the girls. That said, even it doesn't perfectly match this structure, since it kind of has a pair of full-length endings.

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1 minute ago, Fred the Barber said:

Yeah, I agree with @Corrupted: I don't think you can consider Grisaia in this camp (assuming we're talking about Fruit here; I don't know how the other games work).

Looking through the VNs I've marked completed on VNDB, the only one which I recall working this way is Funbag Fantasy, which does a full split off into a different ending for the other girls if you stop off the "true route" path early to pick one of the girls. That said, even it doesn't perfectly match this structure, since it kind of has a pair of full-length endings.

I think we're on the right track here, just might need a slightly more refined nomenclature. 

G-Sendou is like crawling up a tree, then getting off on a branch when you've gone high enough.

Fruit of Grisaia is like crawling up a tree then plucking the first fruit that catches your eye.

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Just now, Corrupted said:

I think we're on the right track here, just might need a slightly more refined nomenclature. 

G-Sendou is like crawling up a tree, then getting off on a branch when you've gone high enough.

Fruit of Grisaia is like crawling up a tree then plucking the first fruit that catches your eye.

"The reason it is called a "ladder structure" is because you can consider choosing the hero(ine) paths along the way to be "getting off the ladder" and staying on the common route as going to the top (the final route on these "stairs").

I described like this on the tag, so true routes and route importance is not taken into account only how the common route works. So both grisaia and g-sen apply since they have routes that split during the common route.

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3 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

"The reason it is called a "ladder structure" is because you can consider choosing the hero(ine) paths along the way to be "getting off the ladder" and staying on the common route as going to the top (the final route on these "stairs").

I described like this on the tag, so true routes and route importance is not taken into account only how the common route works. So both grisaia and g-sen apply since they have routes that split during the common route.

But Fruit doesn't really have a final common route? It feels fundamentally different. I almost want to say call them both a ladder structure, but add one more useful word for G-Sendou. Something like "Side Path Only" ladder structure, you know? Is G-Sendou unique in the way that the side paths feel supplementary and more games are like Fruit where the paths feel equal? Just curious.

 

Edit: I get what you're saying and the definition feels sufficient since you're saying that route importance doesn't matter. There's just a gut reaction saying these two games are fundamentally different, so it inspires more debate trying to define them differently, you know?

Edited by Corrupted

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1 minute ago, Corrupted said:

But Fruit doesn't really have a final common route? It feels fundamentally different. I almost want to say call them both a ladder structure, but add one more useful word for G-Sendou. Something like "Side Path Only" ladder structure, you know? Is G-Sendou unique in the way that the side paths feel supplementary and more games are like Fruit where the paths feel equal? Just curious.

What I'm trying to say, basically I adapted clephas original description to be more open, what I meant by "final routes" is literally that, not a true route, just the last route you can enter on the ladder, that is why both apply, whether the routes during the ladder are side routes or not are not taken into account.

Grisaia has only one common route, there is no "final common route", the reason it applies to desc. is because the routes split during it (so choice 1 lead to heroine A, if you don't enter the route you can continue the common route, but, its still the same common path, then you reach choice 2 that leads to Heroine B, and etc).

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14 minutes ago, tahu157 said:

F/SN fits the description right? 

Weirdly sort of yes? But I think It is more of a VN with early branching point than really ladder, but considering How the order or branching is UBW>HF>Fate I guess It kind Works? Fate is a weird case, I guess I could ask guru Clephas later since he metioned/created the term I Just adapted It to be more open as a tag on VNDb.

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https://vndb.org/v22302

https://vndb.org/v16212

 

https://vndb.org/v15871

https://vndb.org/v11569

Edit: Keep in mind that in ladder-style paths, generally speaking, you will see a wall of choices for the main heroine and a single choice leading straight to an ending branching off from her path.  FSN doesn't qualify since the branching occurs early and all the paths pretty much split off at the same point.

Edit2: Think of it this way....  The main heroine's path is a single line.  Each sub-heroine's path is a branch off that line at a specific point of the story (an arc represented by a rung in the ladder) or a floor of the building where things stop instead of moving farther upward.  FSN doesn't qualify because all three paths go toward a resolution of the game's story... just three wildly different ones.

 

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@SeniorBlitz

I'm a bit confused from the description. I always thought the 'ladder structure' means there's 1 true path for the VN (the ladder) and alternate paths which splits from the ladder. The path the cuts the main story short and you then proceed down this alternate time-steam of events which the story and ending is usually drastic different from the main true path. 

Is it not? :blink:

 

Also the description is a bit confusing to me. For example: 

Quote

The reason it is called a "ladder structure" is because you can consider choosing the hero(ine) paths along the way to be "getting off the ladder" and staying on the common route as going to the top (the final route on these "stairs").

Meaning? 

The alternate paths of, for example, G-Senjou Maou doesn't stay on the common path, doesn't lead to the back to the true route, and doesn't resolve the main issue in the true route at all. So...?......

 

Anyway, grats for getting your tag proposal approved :)  

 

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3 hours ago, phantomJS said:

I'm a bit confused from the description. I always thought the 'ladder structure' means there's 1 true path for the VN (the ladder) and alternate paths which splits from the ladder. The path the cuts the main story short and you then proceed down this alternate time-steam of events which the story and ending is usually drastic different from the main true path. 

Is it not? :blink:

In the most traditional sense, yes. However, there are Visual Novels which employ this method even without a true route. Consider The Fruit of Grisaia. The point at which you stray off the common route is when you choose to follow a specific heroine... except for Yumiko Sakaki. You never make a choice to choose Yumiko, you just naturally end up with her by rejecting everyone else.
This doesn't make much sense in the typical setting where you usually just choose the heroine you like the most, but it makes a lot of sense for true routes where 'ending up with that heroine was the natural course'. In The Devil on G-String it's 'only natural' you end up with Haru, assuming you do not stray off the main path with any previous heroine.
In Grisaia, there isn't really a main path, but you end up with Yumiko in much the same way.

In short, the ladder structure is there, but not in the way we traditionally associate with it (It's still a path and branches at every heroine, but not a 'true' path.). It's a ladder with various exits, but it's not like the main one is more important.

3 hours ago, phantomJS said:
Quote

The reason it is called a "ladder structure" is because you can consider choosing the hero(ine) paths along the way to be "getting off the ladder" and staying on the common route as going to the top (the final route on these "stairs").

Meaning? 

Choosing a heroine is leaving the ladder.
Not choosing a heroine means you go to the top of the ladder (which may or may not be the true route).

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2 hours ago, Mr Poltroon said:

In the most traditional sense, yes. However, there are Visual Novels which employ this method even without a true route. Consider The Fruit of Grisaia. The point at which you stray off the common route is when you choose to follow a specific heroine... except for Yumiko Sakaki. You never make a choice to choose Yumiko, you just naturally end up with her by rejecting everyone else.
This doesn't make much sense in the typical setting where you usually just choose the heroine you like the most, but it makes a lot of sense for true routes where 'ending up with that heroine was the natural course'. In The Devil on G-String it's 'only natural' you end up with Haru, assuming you do not stray off the main path with any previous heroine.
In Grisaia, there isn't really a main path, but you end up with Yumiko in much the same way.

In short, the ladder structure is there, but not in the way we traditionally associate with it (It's still a path and branches at every heroine, but not a 'true' path.). It's a ladder with various exits, but it's not like the main one is more important.

Choosing a heroine is leaving the ladder.
Not choosing a heroine means you go to the top of the ladder (which may or may not be the true route).

^

He Said It all. 

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13 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

How so?

All the side routes divide from the main story in a similar fashion. The main story is pretty linear, but many chapters have what-if endings where the protagonist of that chapter hooks up with somebody, and the story follows a different path. That said, the later chapters follow more traditional route system, and the fact that different chapters have different protagonists makes this case weird, so I think the weight of the tag should be around 1.

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47 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

All the side routes divide from the main story in a similar fashion. The main story is pretty linear, but many chapters have what-if endings where the protagonist of that chapter hooks up with somebody, and the story follows a different path. That said, the later chapters follow more traditional route system, and the fact that different chapters have different protagonists makes this case weird, so I think the weight of the tag should be around 1.

Sounds complex, but I guess It works even with multiple protags.

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@Mr Poltroon

Actually, my post was directed towards the ladder tag itself. Consider it's description:

Quote

his Visual Novel has a type of branching system that works like a "Ladder".
Basically, instead of the routes branching off from the end of the common route/prologue, they split of during it.

The reason it is called a "ladder structure" is because you can consider choosing the hero(ine) paths along the way to be "getting off the ladder" and staying on the common route as going to the top (the final route on these "stairs").
 

Personally I don't think it conveys very well of what you just said, and may in fact confuses a lot of viewers. 

Not a big deal I guess :) 

 

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1 hour ago, phantomJS said:

@Mr Poltroon

Actually, my post was directed towards the ladder tag itself. Consider it's description:

Personally I don't think it conveys very well of what you just said, and may in fact confuses a lot of viewers. 

Not a big deal I guess :) 

 

I rewrited the desc. so many times before I proposed I'm kind of afraid of changing kek, but I could ask a VNDb mod to add a note like: "Route importance and canonicity should note be taken into account, only how the common route Works".

Edited by SeniorBlitz

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