How can we make visual novels more popular in the west?

[Sparteh]

1 hour ago, Hetzer123 said:

For some people, it doesn't matter if it's generic moege as long as it is enjoyable (just like generic action films compare to films about complex philosophy). There is nothing wrong for having different taste(they just want to have fun) and they buy Boobs Wars or others nukige/moege on MG because they can't get localized version elsewhere. (lower availability compare to Sherlock Holmes, WOW or Prince of Persia). Abundance of showelware games does not discourage a lot of newbies from playing Witcher 3 or other games. Low quality OELVN does not make DDLC less popular.

Companies like MG might benefits from nukige/moege because it will helps them fund plot VN. The developers are also at fault for rejecting some localization companies. Sometimes, localization companies ask the developers for license but they ignore it. Some devs only give license for the older/inferior version of their games.(I ask MG about people complaining about the missing CGs of kuroinu, they said Liquid only give license of the 3 chapter version)

It is bad to assume everybody has time/resources to learn Japanese and buy the untranslated version. Telling everybody to learn Japanese does not solve the problem of declining sales of VNs in Japan, improving overseas sales or how to make VNs more popular.

I never said that they should stop localizing Moege, did I? However, Moege is on the main things that ruin VN image in the west. And you used Witcher 3 as an example? Seriously? You do realize how popular and well rated that game is? Even the best VNs can't come even close to that. The thing is, Witcher is extremely popular due to instantly apparent quality and this popularity is generating even more popularity. It is something that VNs will likely never have. With its level of animation quality, 1 trailer is enough to convince most readers that it is epic. Sadly, VNs are incapable of that.

I won't argue that developers are at fault as well nor that Moege has its fans or that it helps to keep it alive. In fact, Moege is a double edge sword. From 1 point of view, it is something that with the help of perverts keeps market alive, but at the same time, it is something that completely ruins the reputation of VNs as a format. Be honest, how many moege fans would actually dare to reveal that they like moege or recommend it to someone? Who would buy it as presents instead of books or standard games? Rarely anyone. It will never help to create a positive image of VNs. Basically, Moege/hentai is like a deadly poison, which instant effects appear like medicine, but in longer term will kill you. 

[Hetzer123]

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Edited October 2, 2019 by Hetzer123

[Sparteh]

3 hours ago, Hetzer123 said:

Because you sound like people should stop buying things they liked. I am comparing to Witcher 3 because it looks like you assume if the game developer stop making low quality game, it will drastically increase the amount of high quality game like Witcher 3. This is not a literal comparison. I am tired about people assume removing any form of Lowest Common Denominator in any medium (not the mathematics definition) will increase it's quality like generic fps games, action films, etc.

For promoting VN topic, does anime adaption promote it's popularity?

I do not assume that. Reducing amount of bad quality stuff released does not mean increase in amount of good quality stuff. Though, if VN companies released less stuff which is basically hentai without story, it would help to reduce the stigma that VNs have even by a little. Furthermore, localization companies are a different from VNs companies because they localize stuff which has already been released. There are many good quality VNs which already have been released. I won't talk about stuff that is practically nearly impossible to properly translate like Muramasa, but such companies as light or Innocent Grey or such games like Baldr or Eustia series etc. which actually are very high quality and quite popular in Japan, but has never been localized. Of course, localization companies are not entirely at fault, but still, there are many good games which they could choose from. However, if VNs want to become popular in the west, first they have to "clean themselves" a bit and show the true glory of the genre.

Personally, I have mixed views about anime adaptations. I admit, I learned about visual novels from anime. The first time I heard about them was when I first watched Deen F/SN adaptation. I am sure, that a lot of readers were attracted to VNs due to such adaptations as S;G, F/SN or Key works. These anime was basically a good commercial for the genre, however there are problems with this aspect as well. Tsukihime, Umineko and similar adaptations which were ruined might create a negative effect as well. Sure, I truly got into VNs after watching Umineko adaptation and smelling major potential, but at the same time I understand why some people might be repulsed. The last few adaptations that I have seen were DI and Rewrite, but they were so downgraded that I can't really think much positive things about them. People kept complaining about it over and over again. You could hear stuff like "Dies Irae/Rewrite sucks" etc. However, it still made people talk about it, discuss it. Many of those who read these VNs defended them and at the very least, people learned more about the genre.

[bakauchuujin]

1 hour ago, Sparteh said:

I do not assume that. Reducing amount of bad quality stuff released does not mean increase in amount of good quality stuff. Though, if VN companies released less stuff which is basically hentai without story, it would help to reduce the stigma that VNs have even by a little. Furthermore, localization companies are a different from VNs companies because they localize stuff which has already been released. There are many good quality VNs which already have been released. I won't talk about stuff that is practically nearly impossible to properly translate like Muramasa, but such companies as light or Innocent Grey or such games like Baldr or Eustia series etc. which actually are very high quality and quite popular in Japan, but has never been localized. Of course, localization companies are not entirely at fault, but still, there are many good games which they could choose from. However, if VNs want to become popular in the west, first they have to "clean themselves" a bit and show the true glory of the genre.

I find the titles you mentioned that hasn't gotten localization to be rather odd, Innocent Grey has the Cartagra and Kara no Shoujo localized by Mangagamer and the Flowers Series by Jast USA. Light has released one title in the west Dies Irae and while Baldr is not yet officially released in english yet Sekai Project does have the license for it.

Edited July 30, 2018 by bakauchuujin

[Sparteh]

13 minutes ago, bakauchuujin said:

I find the titles you mentioned that hasn't gotten localization to be rather odd, Innocent Grey has the Cartagra and Kara no Shoujo localized by Mangagamer and the Flowers Series by Jast USA. Light has released one title in the west Dies Irae and while Baldr is not yet officially released in english yet Sekai Project does have the license for it.

My apologies for Innocent Grey. I most likely missed that Flowers was localized. However, light still has KKK, Silverio and Senshinkan series + good standalone VNs. As for Baldr Sky, It was licensed by Sekain Project years ago. My choices might have been a bit wrong, but fact remains that there is still good stuff that haven't been localized yet.

[bakauchuujin]

2 minutes ago, Sparteh said:

My apologies for Innocent Grey. I most likely missed that Flowers was localized. However, light still has KKK, Silverio and Senshinkan series + good standalone VNs. As for Baldr Sky, It was licensed by Sekain Project years ago. My choices might have been a bit wrong, but fact remains that there is still good stuff that haven't been localized yet.

Ye but that there is still some good stuff left to translate seems like a bit of an odd thing to complain about when there has been lots of highly rated titles translated already. Of the 20 VNs with the highest rating on vndb only White Album 2, Fate Stay Night, Muramasa and Sakura no Uta have not yet been officially released in english or been licensed for an english release. The ones of these 20 that has had an english release or have been confirmed to get one there are Muv-Luv Alternate, Stein's;Gate, Umineko Question and Answer arc, Baldr Sky 2, The house in fata morgana, Clannad, Subahibi, Higurashi Question and Answer arc, Ever17, Little Busters, Rewrite, Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney, The Devil on G-String and The Fruit of Grisaia.

[Sparteh]

1 hour ago, bakauchuujin said:

Ye but that there is still some good stuff left to translate seems like a bit of an odd thing to complain about when there has been lots of highly rated titles translated already. Of the 20 VNs with the highest rating on vndb only White Album 2, Fate Stay Night, Muramasa and Sakura no Uta have not yet been officially released in english or been licensed for an english release. The ones of these 20 that has had an english release or have been confirmed to get one there are Muv-Luv Alternate, Stein's;Gate, Umineko Question and Answer arc, Baldr Sky 2, The house in fata morgana, Clannad, Subahibi, Higurashi Question and Answer arc, Ever17, Little Busters, Rewrite, Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney, The Devil on G-String and The Fruit of Grisaia.

From another point of view, the reason why they are so well rated might be because they have been translated. However, wouldn't it be interesting  to see the number of translated Moege and to compare it with the number of translated quality VNs?

[bakauchuujin]

26 minutes ago, Sparteh said:

From another point of view, the reason why they are so well rated might be because they have been translated. However, wouldn't it be interesting  to see the number of translated Moege and to compare it with the number of translated quality VNs?

Hard thing about that is that it is hard to know what your definition of quality is. For instance do you view all Moege and Nukige as trash or just some of them? I would assume that many titles that I like are titles that you don't consider quality and that there are many people who think different from you in regard to what visual novels can be considered quality VNs. 

This should contain all the official english releases, so I guess you can judge for yourself whether they are mostly trash or whether there is also a lot of quality titles in there as well.

[Plk_Lesiak]

2 hours ago, Sparteh said:

From another point of view, the reason why they are so well rated might be because they have been translated. However, wouldn't it be interesting  to see the number of translated Moege and to compare it with the number of translated quality VNs?

I have to say I'm a bit with @bakauchuujin on this, the way you lump Moege and Nukige together and put them against "quality VNs" is going at least slightly overboard. Most moege that get translated are actually rather high-quality and while some people might see them as mindless waifu games, they can easily think the same about Little Busters or Clannad if they aren't familiar with them. 

Games like Fureraba or Princess Evangile don't need porn to work IMO, but the publishers, more often than not, see the all-ages versions as ways to sneak into platforms that don't sell porn rather than as legitimate products. For example, after the Steam release of SonoHana 11 was removed, I'm simply unable to buy the all-ages version I was looking for - MG doesn't sell it, because why would they, as a dedicated eroge publisher?

There's a lot of quality, story driven VNs being released, definitely enough to satisfy an average player, who'll read them from time to time. The problem is much more on the marketing side of things and the philosophy companies like MG and JAST seem to follow, porn being their main commodity and everything else being more or less a bonus for even more niche audience. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[Yuuko]

Why should we lie what the genre actually is to get more customers?

[Plk_Lesiak]

2 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Why should we lie what the genre actually is to get more customers?

To get more customers?

Plus, once more, I don't ask anyone to pretend eroge are not eroge. I just dare to claim there's much more than porn to many of them and sometimes porn segments are more a drag than anything else (see Kara no Shoujo). Emphasizing other merits than hentai and giving people an explicit choice between 18+ and all-ages versions is not "lying to them".

[bakauchuujin]

4 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Plus, once more, I don't ask anyone to pretend eroge are not eroge. I just dare to claim there's much more than porn to many of them and sometimes porn segments are more a drag than anything else (see Kara no Shoujo). Emphasizing other merits than hentai and giving people an explicit choice between 18+ and all-ages versions is not "lying to them".

So pretty much just make sure people know the difference of Eroge and Nukige?

[Sparteh]

Well, I might be simply annoyed because I am a believer that VNs, as a format, is a format with the most potential out of all forms of literature. 

[tymmur]

4 pages and I still don't know why we would want VNs to become more popular. More releases is not really a goal because I can't keep up with the releases as it is right now. I would like better quality, but there is no link between quality and popularity. Even if sales are a million times as high as right now, certain companies would still release translations of questionable quality if that is what their staff can deliver or they assume is the most profitable approach or whatever. Before figuring out how we can make VNs more popular, can somebody explain why the end users would want more popularity?

[Plk_Lesiak]

47 minutes ago, bakauchuujin said:

So pretty much just make sure people know the difference of Eroge and Nukige?

Yeah, but there's more to it. I think it's usually quite easy to discern eroge where hentai is pretty much just fanservice/fap material (most Chuunige and story-driven VNs, more story-oriented Moege) and ones where it's a crucial part of the narrative (Clock-Up Games for example). If a lot of mainstream eroge can get "clean" console and mobile releases in Japan, it means there's a market for them without sexual content and they don't have to be advertised primarily as smut or sold exclusively as 18+ titles. This goes also to the fact how everything is lumped together on the VN online stores. On JAST website you'll have Steins;Gate or Flowers listed next to weird, fetishistic nukige - maybe in Japan people aren't grossed out by hardcore porn on display and trashy sex-shop aesthetic, but here it will stop most people from even considering what's actually on sale there.

You don't really have to hide anything to take in consideration the realities of the Western market and the cultural differences between the Western games and JP eroge fans. Making an all-ages version of the store and giving more support to all-ages releases wouldn't cost MG and JAST that much and it could do much to change their image and give their products a broader appeal. And I know I'm not just one prude trying to enforce his misguided vision of what's proper on the whole community - many people don't care about hentai and wish for the non-sexual side of the medium to get more support.

[bakauchuujin]

12 minutes ago, tymmur said:

4 pages and I still don't know why we would want VNs to become more popular. More releases is not really a goal because I can't keep up with the releases as it is right now. I would like better quality, but there is no link between quality and popularity. Even if sales are a million times as high as right now, certain companies would still release translations of questionable quality if that is what their staff can deliver or they assume is the most profitable approach or whatever. Before figuring out how we can make VNs more popular, can somebody explain why the end users would want more popularity?

A personal reason for me is that more people would mean a higher possibility for physical releases from companies like MG who look into sales numbers before deciding to make physical copies, this is however something I doubt a lot of people care about. Other than that I guess it also could help out when companies are about to go bankrupt, since there seems to be a declining market in Japan. Other than that I am not really sure what benefits we would gain, atm I think we are in a really good period for visual novels in regard to the titles being released in english.

Edited July 30, 2018 by bakauchuujin

[Plk_Lesiak]

30 minutes ago, tymmur said:

4 pages and I still don't know why we would want VNs to become more popular. More releases is not really a goal because I can't keep up with the releases as it is right now. I would like better quality, but there is no link between quality and popularity. Even if sales are a million times as high as right now, certain companies would still release translations of questionable quality if that is what their staff can deliver or they assume is the most profitable approach or whatever. Before figuring out how we can make VNs more popular, can somebody explain why the end users would want more popularity?

+ Higher chance for classic VNs, with expensive licenses to be released in the West.

+ Higher chance for quality localizations (the larger the market, the more feasible it is for companies to invest a lot in translating VNs and not cut corners).

+ Less stigma and inaccurate, negative presumptions about the genre (if anime was able to go mainstream, VNs also might get demystified with time, even considering all the limitations for their spread ["people don't read" etc.]).

+ More people to talk about VNs and share your experiences with (I guess most people don't care that much, but I personally think that consuming media alone, without anyone to share it with is depressing as f***). Obviously, I'm super-biased when it comes to this point, because my blogging and stuff... I guess I'm not just an "end user" (just as many other people on the forums, who actually have ties to the publishing companies).

+ Less risk of the market actually dying out - there's more and more stuff getting released, if the publishers don't work on expanding the niche, it might easily crash at some point, burying the chance for many games we would like to see to ever get an English release.

At least that's my take on it. Obviously, there are risks, like questionable content getting more scrutiny, but as I see it, there's enough of quality VNs that deserve to be released in English and enough of talented EVN creators for me to think that a bigger market for them can only be a positive thing.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Plk_Lesiak

[Hetzer123]

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Edited October 2, 2019 by Hetzer123

[ChaosRaven]

50 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I would like better quality, but there is no link between quality and popularity. Even if sales are a million times as high as right now, certain companies would still release translations of questionable quality if that is what their staff can deliver or they assume is the most profitable approach or whatever. Before figuring out how we can make VNs more popular, can somebody explain why the end users would want more popularity?

I think the connection is clear. Popularity means more sales and more sales means more money. And the quality of a product is almost always directly connected to the available money. High quality games like The Witcher 3 or GTA5 weren't just created with air and love. Just for The Witcher 3, there were more than a thousand people involved in development, design, QA and marketing.

And currently, one of the main problems is that most VN developers have a very tight budget due to overall low sales. It's usually enough for some sprites, a few backgrounds and most important nowadays - the H-scenes. But a good story VN needs a lot more stuff drawn. A typical moege has maybe up to ten drawn characters. But good story VN's like Kara no Shojo, Fate, MuvLuv Alternative or G-Senjou can easily have 40 or even more. And you need a lot more event CG's for a good story VN than for a simple moege - and event CG's are expensive. And expansive story VN's usually also take a lot more than just a year to develop.

There's a reason why games like Fate or MuvLuv Alternative with a huge amount of special effects and characters aren't done anymore.

And it goes without saying that lots of money gives you the opportunity to hire the best artists, writers, translators and editors.

TypeMoon would probably be the only VN developer with the possibility to make a REALLY high budget VN. Apparently they made about 2 billion dollars revenue with Fate Grand Order in two years. That makes even games like The Witcher 3 look like small fry in comparision. Unfortunately, TypeMoon doesn't exactly look like they ever want to go back to pure VN's again. So that's that. 

45 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Making an all-ages version of the store and giving more support to all-ages releases wouldn't cost MG and JAST that much and it could do much to change their image and give their products a broader appeal.

MangaGamer actually had an all ages site, but it was apparently used very rarely and they therefore decided to make Steam their All Ages store front.

Edited July 30, 2018 by ChaosRaven

[tymmur]

That's a number of good arguments. It seems like it comes down to a definition issue of "more popular". I was thinking changed number of sales while you point out effects, which would require a complete gamechanger. Apparently for once I did not think big enough.

1 hour ago, ChaosRaven said:

And the quality of a product is almost always directly connected to the available money.

Sadly that's not true. If they profit to allow spending $20k more on development, they still won't do it unless they expect to earn more than $20k extra on the improvement itself. If they sell a million copies as base and a million and 5 due to increased quality, they end up paying $4k for each extra sale, which is a loss. Now if half of the customers would refuse to buy unless they spend the extra $20k, then it would be like you just stated. However sadly that's not how it works in real life. Just look at steam releases. Why should a publisher pay twice as much to get a better quality translation considering the high amount of people who gives thumbs up regardless of translation quality? Extra spent on the translation will not be reflected in the overall steam review score.

You are right that more money allows higher quality, but it's not correct to say more money ensures higher quality. For that to be true, we would have to make customers way more picky about what they pay for.

[ChaosRaven]

21 minutes ago, tymmur said:

You are right that more money allows higher quality, but it's not correct to say more money ensures higher quality. For that to be true, we would have to make customers way more picky about what they pay for.

That's why I said 'almost always' and not just 'always'. Unfortunately, there are cases when developers think they still sell enough without delivering the best quality *cough* console ports *cough*. But for obvious reasons, that's still much more likely for developers with a tight budget than for ones with a bigger one. But if a developer with a rich budget really 'wants' a certain aspect to be good then it usually 'will' be good.

Edited July 30, 2018 by ChaosRaven

[Narcosis]

People have to finally understand high quality, story-focused vns aren't the main focus of publishers, because - ironically - they don't sell. Why? Because most people don't want to read. They want instant gratification, as to why they prefer light vns filled with either moe or porn (preferably both) over story-heavy games, which also take a lot of time to complete; time, they don't necessarily have, nor want to sacrifice on reading. No matter how hard we'll try, it's already not possible to revert this - vns fell into the same exact pitfall as in Japan. Publishing business is too risky for companies to strive for high quality releases, especially if they don't pay off. That's why we get a lot of cheap/mediocre licenses and good ones are a rarity. There's not much we can do, unless reading becomes a lot more popular once again.

[Yuuko]

People fail to understand that VNs are all about the friends we made along the way

[tymmur]

6 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

People have to finally understand high quality, story-focused vns aren't the main focus of publishers, because - ironically - they don't sell. Why? Because most people don't want to read. They want instant gratification, as to why they prefer light vns filled with either moe or porn (preferably both) over story-heavy games, which also take a lot of time to complete; time, they don't necessarily have, nor want to sacrifice on reading. No matter how hard we'll try, it's already not possible to revert this - vns fell into the same exact pitfall as in Japan. Publishing business is too risky for companies to strive for high quality releases, especially if they don't pay off. That's why we get a lot of cheap/mediocre licenses and good ones are a rarity. There's not much we can do, unless reading becomes a lot more popular once again.

You are absolutely right. We can't make story heavy VNs popular, but we can get somebody else to do it for us. That's our only hope.

 

[ChaosRaven]

2 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

People have to finally understand high quality, story-focused vns aren't the main focus of publishers, because - ironically - they don't sell. Why? Because most people don't want to read. They want instant gratification, as to why they prefer light vns filled with either moe or porn (preferably both) over story-heavy games, which also take a lot of time to complete; time, they don't necessarily have, nor want to sacrifice on reading. No matter how hard we'll try, it's already not possible to revert this - vns fell into the same exact pitfall as in Japan. Publishing business is too risky for companies to strive for high quality releases, especially if they don't pay off. That's why we get a lot of cheap/mediocre licenses and good ones are a rarity. There's not much we can do, unless reading becomes a lot more popular once again.

Ironically, this doesn't really have to be a problem. Just take books for example - people don't like to read? No problem, that's why we have audio books nowadays. Most VN's are very dialog focused and the bigger ones are usually fully voiced. So VN's are already quite modern in comparison since they have voices, images and music. And partly animated VN's get more and more common, closing the gap to animes more and more. On the flip side, the production cost get also higher and higher with that, making it more and more difficult to bring those qualities with an expansive story and not just a simple moege.

Actually, many cut scenes of big budget RPG's already have lots of similarities with VN's. I recently played The Witcher 2 in preparation for the third one and it had cut scenes galore, and with sub titles activated, it almost felt like an action RPG VN hybrid. And many JRPG's seem to like the VN fromat for cut scenes as well, so I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

I also heard a rumour that there's a special edition of Stein's Gate in the works that combines the animations of the anime with the VN. If that's true I'm really curious how that will work out. And if it'll works out I'd really like to have the same for Fate/Stay Night *drool*.