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Maitetsu VN Discussion (Released at June 29th)

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I figured out the meaning of Reina's talk about engine upgrade.

Spoiler

Heavy vehicles are all about torque, which is the forward force delivered by the engine. Horsepower is the ability to keep delivering torque at high speed. You need lots of torque to accelerate something heavy or go uphill with something heavy (because gravity subtracts from the resulting torque). To put it simple, for a train torque sets the steepest hill it can climb while horsepower determines the speed it can climb with.

Kiha-07 has a dry clutch, which is two spinning discs pushed together by springs (your car is like that too). There is a tiny slip, meaning the engine side turns a little bit faster. This causes friction, which in turn creates heat. The more torque, which is transferred, the more slip which means more heat.

Kiha 07 was converted from gasoline to diesel. Not only did it give it more horsepower, diesel provides more torque for each horsepower due to longer stroke (movement distance of pistons). This must have made it a lot better at hill climbing (very useful for Japan), but it also increased the slip in the clutch. The result is apparently a clutch with a tendency to overheat and then that happens, the only option is to put the gear in neutral and let it cool. While it sounds like a bad design, climbing a hill and then take a cooling break is better than not being able to climb the hill at all.

 

How does this affect the story? When the clutch overheats, the engine can't work until the clutch has cooled down and without a working engine, Reina falls asleep.

It makes perfect sense, but really, shouldn't you be able to figure this out from the VN itself without prior knowledge about engines? Once again it's a really nice idea, which is severely overshadowed by poorly written text/translation. Admittedly unlike the other issues I mentioned, this one is not easy to google, meaning at least translator and editor have valid excuses for missing this one.

5 hours ago, adamstan said:

Indeed, trains were what drawn me to Maitetsu. Fortunately I'm not too familiar with english railway nomenclature, so I hope it won't bugger me too much :) I'll be reading all-ages version.

It's not just a question of recognizing words you have seen before. It's a question of understanding what the text is trying to tell you.

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8 hours ago, tymmur said:

I figured out the meaning of Reina's talk about engine upgrade.

  Reveal hidden contents

Heavy vehicles are all about torque, which is the forward force delivered by the engine. Horsepower is the ability to keep delivering torque at high speed. You need lots of torque to accelerate something heavy or go uphill with something heavy (because gravity subtracts from the resulting torque). To put it simple, for a train torque sets the steepest hill it can climb while horsepower determines the speed it can climb with.

Kiha-07 has a dry clutch, which is two spinning discs pushed together by springs (your car is like that too). There is a tiny slip, meaning the engine side turns a little bit faster. This causes friction, which in turn creates heat. The more torque, which is transferred, the more slip which means more heat.

Kiha 07 was converted from gasoline to diesel. Not only did it give it more horsepower, diesel provides more torque for each horsepower due to longer stroke (movement distance of pistons). This must have made it a lot better at hill climbing (very useful for Japan), but it also increased the slip in the clutch. The result is apparently a clutch with a tendency to overheat and then that happens, the only option is to put the gear in neutral and let it cool. While it sounds like a bad design, climbing a hill and then take a cooling break is better than not being able to climb the hill at all.

 

How does this affect the story? When the clutch overheats, the engine can't work until the clutch has cooled down and without a working engine, Reina falls asleep.

It makes perfect sense, but really, shouldn't you be able to figure this out from the VN itself without prior knowledge about engines? Once again it's a really nice idea, which is severely overshadowed by poorly written text/translation. Admittedly unlike the other issues I mentioned, this one is not easy to google, meaning at least translator and editor have valid excuses for missing this one.

It's not just a question of recognizing words you have seen before. It's a question of understanding what the text is trying to tell you.

That's really interesting. Thanks for the clear explanations!

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I read on and the technical descriptions doesn't get better. In fact they get worse. Inconsistent naming and unclear descriptions allows reading a the last common route scene like 8620 is burning water. It doesn't explicitly say so but if you map all the times certain parts are mentioned and what they do, then you can summarize water in the flames. More or less each scene has issues like this.

After seeing that you can make patches, which applies to patches, I started wondering about making a patch purely to make the explanations readable. Not a retranslation, but rather "it's explaining this, let's explain this in a readable way while ignoring the voice most people can't understand anyway". Diverting from the original is not the goal of a translation, but this patch would not as much be a translation fix, but rather an explanation fix to help the immersion. It really breaks the immersion when each explanation ends up being confusing. Well not all, but quite a number of them.

However after reaching Hachiroku's route, I have decided not to do it. The reason is that it has become obvious that a number of the issues aren't due to the translation. It seems that the translation just copied bogus explanations (which is what a translation should do, like it or not). Even worse, fixing means removing plot elements. My plan was to fix explanations while maintaining the plot. Since this has turned out not to be possible, I see no point in trying, what I already know will fail.

Some plot related issues, all Hachiroku scene 3:

Spoiler

The test train is impossible. Just think about it. Kiha 07 - passenger car - 8620. Let's look at the weight 27 - unknown - 86. The passenger car is likely 15-20 tons, placing the total around 130 tons. Remember the Kiha 07 has 200 horsepower, but only in bursts because it overheats the clutch. If it overheats when using the torque to drive 27 tons (itself), it most certainly can't handle 5 times as much weight. It's questionable if it even as enough torque to start moving. The train could be possible, but it would require 8620 to do the work in both directions, meaning Raina wouldn't work, not overheat the clutch, not sleep and then constantly message Hachiroku if speed should go up or down. However the text specifically states that only the front engine is engaged.

It seems to me this is written by a Kiha 07 fanboi. One who praises it to way more than it can live up to. It's a shame because it ends up being ridicules and untrustworthy and it hides what I learned about Kiha 07 (researching it online) and it's actually interesting in itself. I just wrote a slightly different story, which can be used in the same storyline, meaning the Kiha is not made overpowered for the sake of the story. It just is because of the author would want it to be so.

 

The whole smoke talk is bogus. Coal smoke is supposed to be light gray at all time. White means too much air, meaning combustible gasses are blown out before being burned. Black smoke means too little air and those gasses have time to ignite, but no oxygen to do so. Both issues can be fixed by opening or closing the secondary air intake (aka the hole, which is also used to add coal). Accelerating (and blower) will not change this, but rather change how fast the coal is burning, hence the temperature of the flames.

Smoke will not stick to the cars. I read about one case where it did with a prototype and it was back to the drawing board to fix the problem before mass production. The same goes for smoke in the cab.

Passenger cars aren't airtight. Imagine putting 50-100 people in a room barely big enough for them to all to fit in there, place a lot of windows in the sun and then make sure not to change the air at all. That wouldn't end well.

Smoke will not go down a chimney. If we ignore that the smoke is higher and assume it's right on top of the roof, it would still not be a problem. The air in the car isn't moving while it is moving on the roof. This difference will suck air from the car up the chimney. This is simple physics and what makes airplane wings work. The air on top of the wing moves faster than the air below and air will push towards the fast moving air. The air pressure in the car will drop, but because it's not airtight, it will just suck in air from the outside to compensate and nobody will notice. If anything, it would increase the fresh air supply.

 

Scene 4 starts with them trying to solve the smoke problem and I kind of stalled reading because with every single line, my mind said "ignore it. It's not a problem". It's one of the biggest immersion killers I have ever encountered in a VN, or at least in a VN which started out decently.

I was already questioning even looking into it because it seems to be time consuming and it's not like I haven't got anything else to do (like you know, already working on a different VN). Now that I know the end goal is unreachable, I'm even less motivated to even start.

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The official patch has been released. It's probably not what most people want, but it seems the best we'll get officially: https://www.fakku.net/forums/games/maitetsu-fixes-and-updates

Long story short, the version that was initially released was the version Lose intended to release, and is in fact the version of Maitetsu they'll be selling in Japan in an upcoming re-release. Fakku and Sekai Project both sat down with Lose and they came to a compromise. Some of the ecchi content like the upskirt will be restored, but none of the main story nudity will. Nipples will remain hidden.

It seems rather absurd to me that they're unwilling to show boobs in the main story but are perfectly okay with including hardcore pornography featuring the same characters. I don't understand Lose's thinking here.

Edited by Decay

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We finally got an official explanation, though it still leaves us with a bunch of unanswered questions. Why didn't SP or Lose notice their 18+ version was broken prior to release? What kind of quality control lead it to show up in the first place? While it's not great, at least it's actually patched and it's not the most buggy release ever. I mean it's not like you can make the script loop or anything like that.

1 hour ago, Decay said:

It seems rather absurd to me that they're unwilling to show boobs in the main story but are perfectly okay with including hardcore pornography featuring the same characters. I don't understand Lose's thinking here.

This turns the whole thing into a gigantic mystery. They released the CG in Japan, they know (most likely) that there is a fan made patch to add those to the English release, yet they want to attract bad publicity to themselves by hiding nipples in an 18+ release? Did they change their minds about English localization or something? It's not like they are making themselves more attractive for a new licensing contract when they pull off tricks like this. Besides why would they even care? They released the CGs in Japan already, SP asked for them. Why not just say "ok, here" instead of spending time on meetings about the rejection? The fact that it's now an intentional decision and not just careless mistakes just makes it much worse.

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On 7/29/2018 at 6:15 AM, tymmur said:

Some plot related issues, all Hachiroku scene 3:

  Hide contents

Smoke will not go down a chimney. If we ignore that the smoke is higher and assume it's right on top of the roof, it would still not be a problem. The air in the car isn't moving while it is moving on the roof. This difference will suck air from the car up the chimney. This is simple physics and what makes airplane wings work. The air on top of the wing moves faster than the air below and air will push towards the fast moving air. The air pressure in the car will drop, but because it's not airtight, it will just suck in air from the outside to compensate and nobody will notice. If anything, it would increase the fresh air supply.

Scene 4 starts with them trying to solve the smoke problem and I kind of stalled reading because with every single line, my mind said "ignore it. It's not a problem". It's one of the biggest immersion killers I have ever encountered in a VN, or at least in a VN which started out decently.

 

 

Actually, I'm not so convinced this is wrong.  The Mythbusters did a very similar test in the Spy Car Escape episode: they tested smoke screens.  Jamie rigged up a smoke grenade on the outside of the car, and exactly that happened: Smoke went through the ductwork and poured into the interior of the vehicle (which matches closely the scenario described in this scene).

I find it somewhat suspicious that a train car wouldn't have had this problem fixed at the prototype stage.  It makes more sense if the car was originally not used with a steam locomotive.

 

Edited by Nandemonai

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4 hours ago, Decay said:

The official patch has been released. It's probably not what most people want, but it seems the best we'll get officially: https://www.fakku.net/forums/games/maitetsu-fixes-and-updates

Long story short, the version that was initially released was the version Lose intended to release, and is in fact the version of Maitetsu they'll be selling in Japan in an upcoming re-release. Fakku and Sekai Project both sat down with Lose and they came to a compromise. Some of the ecchi content like the upskirt will be restored, but none of the main story nudity will. Nipples will remain hidden.

It seems rather absurd to me that they're unwilling to show boobs in the main story but are perfectly okay with including hardcore pornography featuring the same characters. I don't understand Lose's thinking here.

What... w-why though? This makes no sense, lol. Glad I refunded my copy.., 

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Because they want to move away from porn. 2D porn featuring children is far from socially acceptable over there, and that affects their ability to work with certain companies (anyone remember the time they tried partnering with some railway company for some charity promotion or w/e, and they quit working with them after figuring out the type of games they make?). 

Of course, this doesn't mean they're not complete idiots, but I doubt they care one bit about people over here whining and yelling about it. 

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18 minutes ago, Chuee said:

Because they want to move away from porn. 2D porn featuring children is far from socially acceptable over there, and that affects their ability to work with certain companies (anyone remember the time they tried partnering with some railway company for some charity promotion or w/e, and they quit working with them after figuring out the type of games they make?).

What? Why include the hardcore scenes then and not the softcore?

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Quote
  • Towels & steam will not be removed from the bath scenes

https://t.fakku.net/images/upload/maitetsu-002.jpg

This makes no sense, this is Japan not Saudi Arabia! Isn't the point of going into this kind of establishment to get naked and going in wearing a towel on is a big no-no in Japan? At least that is according to what Emiya Shirou said from Fate/hollow ataraxia.

 

Edited by Nier

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4 hours ago, Chuee said:

Because they want to move away from porn. 2D porn featuring children is far from socially acceptable over there, and that affects their ability to work with certain companies (anyone remember the time they tried partnering with some railway company for some charity promotion or w/e, and they quit working with them after figuring out the type of games they make?).

That's an argument for removing the H scenes, not to keep the H scenes and remove nipples in the bath scenes. Besides if I had a railroad company, I wouldn't associate it with anybody who publish such clueless "facts" about trains. I would fear getting a reputation in the public eye like the company, which doesn't understand overloading engines and risk frequent breakdowns and other similar issues. It's the polar opposite of trustworthy reliability, which the key for a railroad to attract customers. You could also argue that the fact that Maitetsu adds non-existing problems to trains and discomfort to passengers is not attractive for a railroad company either. This comes before even considering the H scenes.

If they want to get rid of their loli reputation, why license the 18+ version at all? The only plausible explanation for that would be that they decided to leave 18+ after signing the contract, in which case they run off from the contract they signed. Not living up to a contract they signed themselves is also a horrible way to attract other companies to work with. Regardless of how you explain this, Lose screwed up big time. It would likely have worked better for them to just accept the 18+ contents and then not sign contracts in the future if that is what they want.

 

8 hours ago, Nandemonai said:
  Hide contents

Actually, I'm not so convinced this is wrong.  The Mythbusters did a very similar test in the Spy Car Escape episode: they tested smoke screens.  Jamie rigged up a smoke grenade on the outside of the car, and exactly that happened: Smoke went through the ductwork and poured into the interior of the vehicle (which matches closely the scenario described in this scene).

I find it somewhat suspicious that a train car wouldn't have had this problem fixed at the prototype stage.  It makes more sense if the car was originally not used with a steam locomotive.

 

Still about Hachiroku scene 3

Spoiler

Good point, but not comparable. The air goes under the car and then it encounters the bottomless trunk. This creates turbulence, which apparently is strong enough to pull smoke forwards. The design of no roof combined with a windshield also caused a lot of turbulence. In other words the smoke merely revealed an already horrible design, one which can't be compared to the more block like design of a train as trains turbulence around trains is entirely different.

Also as you stated, if it had been a problem, it would have been discovered at the prototype stage. Odds are that history has provided countless examples of design flaws (like the Mythbusters one) where the first trial run reveals that it's not going to work. Something was changed, the new design worked and we will never hear about it. Not using it with steam wouldn't solve anything because it's not better to suck in diesel exhaust. Besides do a google image search for caboose and you will notice that almost all of them have a chimney of that design despite being designed to be pulled by steam. The only explanation for using a specific design as the standard design is because it works as intended.

The same goes for the locomotive. If the cab had been filled with smoke, the crew could suffocate and otherwise not work correctly. The fact that they built more than 600 of this design indicates that like other steam locomotives, this wasn't a problem, at least not outside tunnels.

In short smoke is added for plot and drama, but has little or nothing to do with reality.

 

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1 hour ago, gman12 said:

i personally think SP just lying. There really is no reason to trust SPs word 

If Fakku is being honest, both Fakku and Denpasoft (Sekai Project) met with Lose in Japan. Guess we will know when Lose releases this remake in Japan.  

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36 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Lying about what?

The reasons for the censorships.

 

20 minutes ago, alchemicalhaze said:

If Fakku is being honest, both Fakku and Denpasoft (Sekai Project) met with Lose in Japan. Guess we will know when Lose releases this remake in Japan.  

It's already released:

https://vndb.org/r52314

But this is an All-Age version for the PS4, but note that this version is called "Maitetsu -pure station-", what we got instead is only called "Maitetsu" for the PC instead and the PC version in Japan was developed and published by Lose themselves, it is also ONLY 18+ with no censorship:

https://vndb.org/r42038

Basically this censorship in a PC 18+ release is pure nonsense.

Edited by Nier

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11 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

-Pure station- pc version is exactly same as the Steam version.

No it's not, pure station has exclusive content not found in the western PC version, only Japan and China are getting pure station.

Chinese kickstarter:

https://zhongchou.modian.com/item/19365.html

Notice it says "pure station", the chinese publisher is called "Hikari Field" and unlike them Sekai project didn't license that title.

Basically instead what we got was some some weird hybrid hackjob made specifically for the western market in mind.

Edited by Nier

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5 minutes ago, Nier said:

No it's not, pure station has exclusive content not found in the western PC version, only Japan and China are getting pure station.

What are we missing and how can you be sure there is something we didn't get?

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1 minute ago, Nier said:

No it's not, pure station has exclusive content not found in the western PC version, only Japan and China are getting pure station.

Chinese kickstarter:

https://zhongchou.modian.com/item/19365.html

Notice it says "pure station", the chinese publisher is called "Hikari Fields" and unlike them Sekai project didn't license that title.

Basically instead what we got was some some weird hybrid hackjob made specifically for the western market in mind.

PS4 edition of -pure station- has additional content but the downloadable PC version that comes together with the PS4 edition is identical to the Steam version.

This Chinese version will be the 4th PC version of the Maitetsu then and will indeed feature additional content. However this Chinese edition (yes I know it has Japanese text too) is not out yet. The Japanese only version of -pure station- on PC is and that content is identical to the Steam version (that also includes Japanese text too, rejoice Japanese fans with all these version.)

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13 minutes ago, tymmur said:

What are we missing

New characters, more story content, glossary that explain stuff about railroads and trains.

But having additional exclusive content for the console version is not unheard of, for example Higurashi has exclusive arcs not found on PC and that were exclusive to the PS3, PS Vita and Nintendo Switch versions.

MangaGamer usually tries to incorporate both content from the PC and Console versions when they make their release, at least I know they have done this for Princess Evangile.

Edited by Nier

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Oh wow, ha ha :vanilla:

I can't hide my disappointment with their latest announcement, neither am I able to understand the intent behind their decisions. This is no different from suddenly watering down a game that was always meant to be a pure eroge. It begs to ask what was the point in making an 18+ version at all. They create a game with animated hentai scenes featuring lolis but refuse to show a couple nipples or pantyshots? What is this sort of an hypocrisy? It's plain hilarious and I'm slowly losing all my respect I always had for Lose. This kind of thinking will also literally ruin their reputation, as you can't really influence and regain trust that easily, once you produced a lolige; you won't really make the mainstream crowd happy, while you're also slowly alienating your entire existing fanbase in the process. It's mindboggling.

At this point it's clear to state Sekai Project also blatantly lied about the version we'll be obtaining on the west. Since it was Lose reinforcing the decisions, this also places SP in a very uncomfortable position of being the sole party responsible for the entire mess, including complete lack of communication during whole localization and publishing process, as well as relaying appropriate information to both fans and people at Fakku. They will have a lot of explaining to do, not to mention this whole mess wouldn't even take place, if they would be more transparent right from the very start. Its this lack of transparency, communication and blatant lies on their behalf which led to this situation.

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3 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Did SP lie though? Did they ever say the game will be IDENTICAL to the original Japanese version? All they promised was 18+ version.

SP originally promised an 18+ uncut version, Fakku had to literally back out from being announced a while ago, because it was - in fact - something they didn't receive to sell on their store.

It's all a matter of good principles, SP completely lacks.

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7 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

SP originally promised an 18+ uncut version, Fakku had to literally back out from being announced a while ago, because it was - in fact - something they didn't receive to sell on their store.

It's all a matter of good principles, SP completely lacks.

Technically they could get away by saying: "Well, we never promised that it would be IDENTICAL to the japanese version, ehehe".

It's like releasing a "Limited Edition" of a game and manufacturing 300k copies, you could always get away and say "Well it IS limited because ONLY 300k copies were made, ehehe".

But like you said, it is all about a matter of principles and Sekai just doesn't care about that, they get enough money already from NEKOPARA as it is.

Edited by Nier

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