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To start off I'm not talking about the High School shows with girls around the 16 or 17 year age range, I'm talking about young girls around the ages of 12 and 13. 12 and 13!

Does anyone find it absurd that some shows give upskirts of 12 year old girls as if there's nothing wrong with it? Or they have those dreaded hot spring scenes where one girl feels up the breasts of the enormous sized 13 year old?

As said I don't have much of a problem with the high school anime girls like this, (even though, its kinda odd even there), but the shows with really young female characters in it.

Does nobody in Japan bat an eye at stuff like this?


That being said does anybody actually have a problem with it? do you think this should be legal? Along the way there's a lot of "Only in Japan!"  


"Japan, which has long been relatively tolerant of the open sale and consumption of sexually oriented material, has developed a brisk trade in works that in many other countries might be considered child pornography. But now some public officials want to place tighter restrictions on the provocative depictions of young girls — referred to as “junior idols”— that are prevalent in magazines, DVDs and Web videos.


One particularly big target is manga comic books that depict pubescent girls in sexual acts. They are a lucrative segment of the ¥450 billion, or $5.5 billion, industry for manga, illustrated books drawn in a characteristic Japanese comic-book style.

An ordinance newly revised by Tokyo’s metropolitan government to restrict the sale of such material has prompted a national debate between its publishers and critics inside and outside Japan, who say the fare exploits children and may even encourage pedophilia. Other local and regional governments, including the prefecture of Osaka, are considering similar restrictions. 


Link to article: http://comicsbeat.com/japanese-sexualization-of-young-girls-just-icky-or-illegal/


Also something else worth quoting from the article: 

A key aspect of this legislation, that admittedly was rather glossed over in the article itself: the new Tokyo bill does not *ban* any manga, it merely extends the list of subject matter that make it illegal to sell to persons under 18. Adults can continue to read about whatever they wish; only teenagers are now prohibited from fantasizing about teenagers.


I am disappointed that the Times chose to link this bill with material that sexualizes girls; the Times seems to have accepted the argument by Ishihara and his fellow conservatives that this bill targets “extreme sexual content” and exists to protect children from exploitation. But the existing Tokyo Youth Ordinance of 1964 already makes sexually explicit and violent material illegal to sell to minors; this revised legislation exists to allow regulation of non-explicit stories.


Positioning this bill as a fight against pedophillic material also ignore the fact that, during the last 15 years, the existing Tokyo ordinance has largely been used to regulate *romance comics targeted to teenage girls*, especially comics that contain LGBT relationships. These comics are not intended for men, are rarely bought by men, and are just as likely to sexualize male characters as female, but have attracted great opposition from conservative groups who do not like the idea of young women reading about sexual relationships.


This revised bill is not about protecting children from sexual exploitation by adults, it is about “protecting” teens (especially girls) from material that shows types of sexuality (teenage, premarital or LGBT) that Ishihara and his ilk disapprove of. I wish the Times had more clearly explained the background and context of this legislation.


While we support the notion that drawn material in not illegal, as a photo or filmed version would be, we do caution those who are a little too vigorous in their "Let free speech be free! This is all harmless!" defenses: all this stuff is really creepy, even by US standards.

 Now to end this I ask again does anybody actually have a problem with it? do you think this should be legal? Tell me what you think about this whole situation.


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As obvious as it may sound, first we need to clarify that people do not choose what arouse them, and being aroused by something is not "evil". Coercing a kid to have sex with you or just simply raping them is in fact considered bad by most of the society and I'm not about to disagree with them on this one, but simply feeling sexual arousal by children is not bad in itself if you can properly control it.


Now, if you ban the depiction of sexualization of small girls/boys in anime, the sexual arousal from those things will not go away. Conversely, I can assure you that most of the people that like this kind of thing are not intending to go and rape somene on the streets. People sexual orientations aren't about to change due to them seeing porn of another kind. Conversely, if you force someone with X arousal by something to not watch X again, saying that only Y is acceptable, that person won't magically stop liking X.


Now, 2D H is harmless by itself. It doesn't matter what fetish you have, if you only keep it to 2D, no one is getting hurt by it while you still can have what you like. There should be proper regulation for 3D, but that's besides the point while dealing with animes, doujinshis and such.


Banning X sexualization from 2D is not going to stop anyone from liking X. In fact, it sometimes may compell them to take even more drastic changes to get X. If you're an common heterosexual, banning straight porn is  not going to make you gay. This applies to all kinds of sexual preferences, therefore, I am against prohibiting the sexualizatons of kids, trees, dogs, tentacles or whatever on any sort of 2D, non-real manner.

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Real-life child pornography is, as it should be, illegal in almost every nation. Illustrated pornography will likely forever remain a subject of debate. Personally, I find the idea that Lolicon is harmful at all rather hard to swallow (Is that word-choice inappropriate for this topic? ). It exists because some people are into that, and not the other way around. Anyone who doesn't have a thing for Lolicon, eg. thou & I, ought to just ignore or stay away from such content just like we would any other genre etc. that we don't fancy. 


In short, like most difficult topics, I'm quite apathetic about it.

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First of all. 

Since we're talking about drawings here, prohibiting/censoring mangas is equivalent to accusing the readers and/or the author of what is essentially a thought crime, since no victim can be found and it's basically the government telling you "stop fapping to this you sickfuck". Thus it is going against a fundamental right and I completely disagree with it.


Now, this aside, I don't particularly like the hyper-sexualization of woman, especially the younger ones, and it definitely has a perverted side to it. But I'm not going to come out and say to the people who enjoys it "stop liking this!". They do whatever they want. See point above.


On the topic of the practical situation, putting aside the fact that most lolicons aren't pedophiles (because y'know, some people only care about 2D anyway), there are probably more studies evidencing a cathartic effect (ie pedololicons are less likely to get into 3D) than studies evidencing an encouragement to pedophilia. 


Of course most politics don't give a fuck about the studies if those don't suit them, but there's a reason why we're having this debate every six months: there's always a law of this kind coming to effect, whether it's in Japan or elsewhere. Results so far? Nobody in Japan cares about the law and it is almost never applied. This kind of law is blur and meant to be blur, because this way it all comes down to the judge's interpretation of the law. But it also means there will always be a way to go around it. 

The manga, anime and doujinshi industries represent way too much to be taken down like that, thus the situation will never get more serious than a few isolated cases.

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This is one of the most annoying things about Japan. The Japanese do an absurd amount of catering to their fans through fan-service in anime, as well as H-scenes that aren't necessary for story in visual novels (Fate).


The unnecessary catering to their fans in this case is making the characters younger than they should be. For some reason, the main characters are always children, typically high school students, and quite often even middle school students, yet they are given the thoughts of college students/adults, and placed in settings that would be more suited to at least university students. [Toaru Kagaku no Railgun. No matter HOW you look at it, this should've been a university setting. Why the hell are they middle schoolers?]


They wouldn't be having all these issues if they didn't insist on making characters overly young.


As for the sexualization itself, I'm not sure I care at this point. I don't think hobby's themselves are dangerous unless the hobby is actually partaking in the act.

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Similar to Down, on a fundamental level I can't get behind any prohibitive restrictions on anything that doesn't have a victim or produces harmful secondary effects. I'm sure a case could be made that lolicon does have a secondary effect on society, but I'm not sure it would be a strong case as I don't think the effect would be anything that would be measurable, quantifiable. or even real.


That being said, the concept itself does make me uncomfortable and I have my own misgivings with it. However, my personal feelings have nothing to do with whether something should be banned or not, nor does it give me any right to condemn those who produce/consume lolicon.

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I can understand why they start out as younger children in some anime, I mean who wants to watch a show about some middle aged dork who suddenly gains mystifying powers and must now go on an adventure to save the world or some such nonsense. although now that I think of it, having a series like that that ends up being him hallucinating his way through his midlife crisis would be brilliant, 10 stars, would watch again.


I can't understand why they stay that age for the entire series. seriously, years go by and ash ketchup is still 10 years old?


as for every other series, I just keep in mind that the entire thing is a work of fiction where teenagers look 30 and 30 year olds look like they're 10. (looking at you, toaru series). in reality, children that age don't act like that. give a real 14 year old boy super powers and he would be far less restrained with it than that and you would be hard pressed to expect him not to blow up the school for the jollies of it.


I find myself being less concerned with the children in these shows than the adults. female kids do cute things and that's acceptable. male kids do stupid and irresponsible things and that's fine too. it's the adults that make everything in these shows go all willy nilly. let's look at ro kyu bu as a recent example:


kid gets his basketball team shut down because the coach was fooling around with little girls. he then becomes the coach of the basketball team for, you guessed it, little girls. that's all well I suppose, but then he starts doing things with them that have not to do with baskets and some to do with balls, but not the kind you generally associate with the sport. taking them on dates and feeding them cake and going swimming with them and taking showers and having slumber parties. our dearest protagonist could just be stupid and that would be acceptable, the issue being that every single functioning adult (except for that one guy, but that was only for like five minutes) seems to be

completely fine with it.


his own aunt and mother think it's cute when they walk in on him and any one of the girls in sexually suggestive positions, one girl's father expected him to marry his daughter because Japanese people in anime seem to enjoy giving their daughters out to people they've never met like candy in a parade, and the icing on the cake is that the stern, overprotective father of the pink haired girl gives his daughter to our bumbling idiot of a protag because he stopped to help the dork find his glasses.


TL:DR: don't blame the children in these shows, blame all of the adults.

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spoilers, and I can't figure out how the spoiler tags work now:


You can add them manually (by typing [ spoiler]text[ /spoiler] without the spaces) or use the icon called "special BBCode" (3rd one in the various icons on the post editor) and select 'spoiler' in the options.

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While I personally dislike the sexualization children in this medium, I don't think it should be banned in any way. It's kind of similar to the recent video game debates. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate, non- biased, research to show any link between this sort of thing, and pedophilia. In the cases where there is a link, I'd imagine the underlying causes were already existent. 

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Well well well, there is lot to be said on this topic.


Everywhere in the world, in every country, you will have stupid laws, even if often inspired by an idea of doing something good.

From reading sankaku, Japan has tons of these laws in real life scenarios, people get arrested for asking a direction from a schoolgirl and stuff like that. But such things happen everywhere in the world and Japan is no exception.


What is Japan special in is something completely different. They, at least to my knowledge, are the country that restricts any creativity the least. And that is where all the "weird" stuff can come from. You often see quotes like "can you think about something weird - it probably exists in Japan" and stuff like  that. And it is true, because they are at least smart enough to understand that limiting creativity will slow the progress of the whole planet.

Yet there are people in Japan who try to limit that creativity and many of them have been successful, for example many copyright laws and such matters, that are very stupid and limit creativity (C&D notices and shit like that).

I don't want to really go into that now as that is for very different topic (we have quite a few of them on this forum already xD)


But what other ways are there to limit creativity? By limiting what you can actually originally create in the first place.

And that is where Japan does really great job, it basically says "you can think about it, you can create it".

And that is exactly how it should be, everywhere in the world.

Unfortunately it is not the case, in lots of parts of the world censorship is a big deal, I know lot of stuff from history of my country about it myself. People being arrested for speaking words of truth, books being burned, media being destroyed, authors being forbidden. There has been countless instances of such things happening and it is only from the history of my little unimportant country. If you take whole world, you will soon see that it is ALWAYS BAD doing things like that, limiting what people can write, draw, create.

Or would you not agree that banning something just because YOU don't it is bad and evil? What is then the difference between such person and other "evil" historical figures banning religions, banning all media about some subjects, about things that people create.

You know who benefits from stuff like this - the leaders.

Because most people alone are nothing, they are just another person between all other 7 bil people. So if you manage to restrict a share of thoughts between those "unimportant" people, you will basically have no opposition. Someone with military and political power would just be the one ruling everything. The reason why this hasn't happened yet is because information and thoughts of people are much more powerful than anything else in this world. Mind is the most powerful tool we have as humans, it is not our arms or legs or eyes, it is the mind.

And with complete freedom of expression, you can be important in the events to come, you can be important in the future.

Even I with this post am sharing my thoughts, it might seem like sure thing for many of us, we can login and post. But even now in many countries you cannot do that.

Because that is what lot of people with power are afraid of, it takes some of their power away from them, it makes internet the most powerful tool to share your individual mos powerful tool, your mind. And more and more try to, laws to restrict the internet are always the threat, because the people with power see it exactly that way.


And that is why banning ANYTHING that comes from mind should always be opposed as strongly as possible. That's why these loli ban laws in Japan fail, because there is actually enough smart people in the community to oppose it.

It is, always has been and always will be only sharing your mind, nothing else.

You cannot possibly compare lolicon to a porn (or a child porn for this matter), because for real porn to exist, real act has to happen, and the tools are real people.

For a loli manga or anime to exist, only a thought is required, mind is the only tool and author is the only one using it.

Why should it be restricted, why should it be limited in any way? Because YOU don't like it? THEN DON'T WATCH IT.

Its simple as that, if you do not like any expression of creativity, whether it is for you boring book, disgusting movie or loli VN, what is forcing you to watch it, how does it affect you? The answer is it doesn't, you should just move on and enjoy whatever else you enjoy.


I will bring this fact again as I haven't mentioned it enough it seems, rock music (or similar genres coming from west [america etc]) were banned in my country for a long time because it was believed that it causes violent behavior in people. Most people will even laugh at absurd idea like that nowadays, but exactly the same is happening here. Some Japanese media is already banned in some countries in Europe, there were some problems in America and Canada too about this. All I can do is laugh in the face of the people saying those things because I know that it is exactly the same as the rock music idea, but many people hasn't realized it yet.

And then I stop laughing because I realize that maybe there will never be a time where people realize it, with what direction I see the world turning, I am actually often thinking how I don't want to live on this planet anymore. But I still try to at least offer my mind to oppose, I try to persuade other people to oppose it and with our connected minds we can rule this world through creation and free expression. I am just worried that time will arise where the limits will be too high to allow enough minds to connect and oppose, it will be the moment of the ultimate evil becoming victorious.

All we can do is fight the limitations themselves, that way we can always connect our minds for the better cause, especially now with the use of internet. Don't let those limitations slowly overwhelm us to the point of no return.


And if you don't like something ignore it. Just because you don't like something or don't agree with something doesn't mean it should be banned. It is all creativity after all. You might say "well if those people didn't create loli manga, I would have more non-loli manga to read" - and that is WRONG, if there were such limitations, people who now can create would just be working in McDonalds for minimal wage or something, not creating anything at all.

Just pick what you like from the literally unlimited amount of media available and leave the rest alone, you are not the only consumer.



And until the end of days, lets just pray that creativity will always be limitless, as that is the way its meant to be.




And have a cirno:


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every time I write what I think to myself is a long, drawn out post and contemplate deleting it to not come off as a cynical ass-hat wearing wind bag, my worries are put at ease by someone posting something four times as long. though I still feel I come off as an ass-hat wearing cynic because all my posts seem to be bashing one thing or another.


but then those thoughts are tossed aside as, for some reason beyond my comprehension, I've never received a dislike and people keep liking my posts :blink:


anyways, on topic, nice post steve. was a good read.

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I believe that any fictional work will always be a fictional work, regardless of the material involved. There's too much going on in the human brain to identify why something like child sexualization in anime appeals to someone. Psychological thrillers, horror movies and murder mysteries have huge followings. Some of them don't have good endings and a lot of people find these ones the best. Does this mean the fans of these are murderers? Absolutely not.


When I see a young character in anime being sexualized, I just... can't mentally connect the dots to a real person so I have never understood where the issue is, all I see is the exact drawing the character embodies as if that were them. I have never once seen a young character in anime sexualized and thought of a real life person or situation. I can get a little defensive on this subject because I'm a huge fan of lolicon art but does that make me a pedophile, morally wrong, sexually craved or any other thing that could be put in? I know the answer those is no, but a lot of people would tell me I'm absolutely wrong like it's a fact, and honestly I don't know how to reply when I get walled like that, like I don't know who I am. I don't think we should judge what sort of individual based on their tastes in any thing, but instead on their actions. Most people would tune out as soon as I stated I enjoy it and go, "Oh, you're that sort of person."


There are certainly a fair share of issues with Japan on the political and legal side, but the one thing I will always envy them for is their creative freedom (As of now). Fiction is fiction, that's all it is. Regardless of what it is, those who are offended by it should stray away and those who enjoy it shouldn't be restricted from something that does no harm. Rock music, rap, The Simpsons, Ren & Stimpy, Family Guy, Harry Potter, I swear, the list goes on of things that will corrupt society for whatever reason, SOMEONE will have a problem with SOMETHING. We wouldn't be wearing leather, eating meat, on a wooden table, on our plastic chairs if everything someone thought was morally wrong was removed because it's wrong to eat animals, it's wrong to cut down trees and non-biodegradable products are destroying the world. Don't take from everyone as a whole, because the responsible will suffer for it and we might as well censor everything if we're worried about what offends who. People have a right to be offended, but I don't think they have the right to force people to conform to whatever they want.



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Interesting topic, it has been debated in Japan for a long time now;


does anybody actually have a problem with it?

It's something visual; so there's no harm to be done i guess, as long as the person is *mentally* stable and can distinguish reality from from that of visual, they won't end up in jail for harassing a kid.


do you think this should be legal?

i guess, so far, there has been no cases of it being linked to pedophilia, because most of the people who enjoy it apparently like it because it's "cute", although i don't see how watching *visually* (that is in animation, games etc) a guy (mostly old) screwing a girl of like what? 9 or 10 years old can be considered "cute". 


Tell me what you think about this whole situation.

I personally think its all preference, like i said, there hasn't been a case of it being linked to pedophilia, cause they rather have the CGI or animated loli characters. I like some loli characters (like i do with any other normal characters) but not in a way that i would want to screw them.

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i don't see how watching *visually* (that is in animation, games etc) a guy (mostly old) screwing a girl of like what? 9 or 10 years old can be considered "cute". 

the age of a character in these series is a mute point unless they also act the age they are supposed to be, and a good chunk of the time they do not. they may have moments of immaturity, but I know functioning adults that are far more immature than most of the girls I've seen in anime. now, my knowledge of hentai is far from being close to my knowledge of anime, but i'm pretty sure that it holds true there as well.


I say the age is a mute point because really, all age is in anime is what the author says it is. there's nothing grounding to it, for these reasons:

1: some young girls appear far older than they are. did anyone know yoko from gurren lagann was 14 just from looking at her? because I was under the impression she was at least 16-17. her looks and actions do not reflect her age at all. 

2: some girls look far younger than they are. komoe from index is in her 30's and looks like she's in grade school. you wouldn't think so without seeing her apartment full of cigarette butts and trashed beer cans, since other characters a fifth her age (nunotaba shinobu heading the sisters project when she was like, 6 for example) are also brilliant.

3: some girls are ageless. it's anime, and shit happens. sometimes that shit just so happens to toss a girl who's been around for centuries and stuck in the form of a 10 year old at you. shinobu from the monogatari series is a really good example of a loli that's not really a loli.


I am not a lolicon, but bias aside there is nothing wrong with being a lolicon. if short girls with no breasticles make you happy in the testicles by all means go to town.


no wait, going to town might be a bad idea. stay in your room with the curtains drawn. nobody needs to see what you're doing in there :mellow:

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I actually think the point entirely is mute as a whole as soon as you remember the author determines the age. If I drew a picture that looked mature enough to the person reading this and said, "Yea, she's actually 12." I feel like the only person who doesn't immediately go, "Ewww, whoops." when a show does that. They could be a 5,300 vampire girl for all they can say. This is proof if there ever needed to be that these characters have no real life, history or even existence; they're shaped into whatever we decide. What makes it "wrong" is when someone looks at it and sees a child and a real situation, something that enough people do not. The reason people argue so passionately on both sides of this subject is because I don't think either understands why they don't see eye to eye.


I know I'm probably not setting my best foot forward being new to forum and all and giving personal examples for my opinion on this, but hey, no shame. A friend of mine who knows I'm a pretty big lolicon asked how I get past the part were you're looking at a kid being sexualized and actually find it cute or attractive. After talking for a while, it hit me - he didn't see what I saw, and I couldn't see what he was seeing. He saw a kid being sexualized and I'd see something sexual pertaining to a drawing that has no existence or restrictions... we couldn't possibly debate it because we weren't even debating the same thing. He was asking, "how can you think that and not be a pedophile?" and I was asking, "how can someone look at a drawing and you call them a pedophile?" ...I seriously can't see past the drawing and he couldn't see the drawing.


So if a character is underdeveloped, rather short, clumsy, immature and cute, but was honest to goodness designed to be an older character, is it completely wrong to think anything sexual towards them at all? What if the character was intelligent, witty, mature and the art style had a more realistic tone to it but they were ultimately not of age, is it wrong then? My entire argument is why does this ever matter in the first place if we are following fiction? It feels as outrageous to me as drawing a circle on a paper and saying it's a ball. Someone may say, no it looks like a balloon. Someone else would say it looks like a wheel. Then it turns into a philosophical debate when in the end this actually ink on a piece of paper, compiled of wood and fibers. It doesn't matter what the meaning is or how it's interpreted if you don't share the same image.


Did I mention I feel extremely strongly on this topic? Couldn't help but post again, I honestly dunno if I repeated myself either but alas...

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I know I'm probably not setting my best foot forward being new to forum and all and giving personal examples for my opinion on this, but hey, no shame.


Aah you have no idea, its exactly the opposite, this is exactly the approach we appreciate.

The worst first posts would be blindly agreeing with random people on the forums just to "blend in", what would be the point of such person if they are just a copy of someone else.

I have a pretty lengthy post on that matter here



And about lolis, we love lolis, they love us and we make love to them so its good you like them too! Even Eldin is nearly a lolicon, after so long under my influence :)

Check this AWESOME TOPIC we have here.

It even has some photos from my second wedding.

I now have 2 wives and I am the happiest person in the world :P

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I know I'm probably not setting my best foot forward being new to forum and all and giving personal examples for my opinion on this, but hey, no shame.


Even Eldin is nearly a lolicon, after so long under my influence :)

word from the wise, new kid. don't do it. it's too late for me, i'm corrupted. don't let him get to you too.

get out while you can...

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As this is a cultural thing, keep in mind that the viewpoint from someone of a different (particularly Western) culture is very different, and so what e.g. Americans may find shocking, is the norm for their culture. There is the influence of Western norms on their culture, which although in and of itself is not necessarily negative from the globalisation perspective, but this induces changes to the Japanese culture that makes them "westernised". To sum up, what is it about "western culture" that is superior!? Why should countries that have been surviving perfectly fine on their own for over a thousand years change their values?

So, to answer your question

Now to end this I ask again does anybody actually have a problem with it? do you think this should be legal?

Certainly "no", "yes"!
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You know that pornography (any, not limited to lolicon) is outlawed by Shariat, right? Compare child assault rates in Japan and any sharia country, and it will be obvious that there is no positive correlation availability of extreme porn and rape.

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You know that pornography (any, not limited to lolicon) is outlawed by Shariat, right? Compare child assault rates in Japan and any sharia country, and it will be obvious that there is no positive correlation availability of extreme porn and rape.

that wasn't the point, but ok.

the question was why a country that survives well and enough on it's own should change it's values. the answer is because some of those countries, like the one in the link, have laws that are just outright retarded in every sense of the word.


unless you're suggesting that that, too, is just an opinion. but then we're arguing about the difference between the rights of fictional, 2d women and real life women. as much as I would love to have that conversation it sounds about as healthy and entertaining as eating a mahogany bookshelf without the added benefit of adding fiber to my diet.

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Btw, looked up some statistics,



Apparently rape rate in USA is 27 times higher than in Japan, and Japan rates are one of lowest in whole world. Australia, which outlawed drawn pornography, has even higher rates than USA.

I'm quite sure overall violent crimes rates are similar, and so are child rape specifically.

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This topic is literally impossible to get a general consensus on, because it revolves around too many variables. It depends on what culture and values you were raised with, your personal beliefs concerning sexuality and sexual depravity, as well as whether you will accept scientific facts as just that, facts. People who feel that they are always in the moral right don't let facts get in their way, and that is why this conversation is pointless.


If someone were to say that 2D pictures are harmless, someone could say that they encourage people to commit crimes in real life, like child rape. The first person pulls out a study to show that that is false, and the second person has their own study that supports his viewpoint. Morals and values are something that have caused millions of deaths and countless wars, over the dumbest of reasons. That is why I believe this is a pointless topic where responses hinge on the social and political landscape of the time.

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