Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It is pretty good. The fan-service is as much as any other anime. The major focus is on the plot and characters. It is not a dark and deep anime like F/Z,but is enjoyable to watch. Well may I know why you don't like it ? Well, to name a few random reasons: - The fan service is way over the top (you expected this one, eh? ;o). And by way over the top I mean even more than the standard shounen. It's a bit abusive. - The characters have little to no development at all. Again, this is worse in FT than in the standard shounen. Natsu is basically the same as he was in episode 1, and the same for all characters. In addition, FT has a lot of problems with secondary characters, which brings me to a couple more problems, being... - FT does a good job at doing what its name promises: only ever focusing on FT. Screw the other guilds, screw everyone else, the show is always, always about the mages from FT. There are secondary characters who get smth similar to a spotlight, but it's only for a short while, and they are actually unimportant people. The important and key aspects of the whole world are all about or related to FT. - Smth that's more of a random thing than a part of the anime is: Natsu only wins 1 real fight in the whole story, against the 2 dragon slayers in the Grand Magic Games, where he actually fights with experience and technique, instead of just powering up through friendship and bs. Still, I insist on making the distinction very clear: that I don't like/enjoy FT doesn't mean it's bad. If anything, I think FT is a good manga/anime. All the things I'm saying are the reasons why FT isn't really good or excellent, not reasons why FT is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Well, to name a few random reasons: - The fan service is way over the top (you expected this one, eh? ;o). And by way over the top I mean even more than the standard shounen. It's a bit abusive. - The characters have little to no development at all. Again, this is worse in FT than in the standard shounen. Natsu is basically the same as he was in episode 1, and the same for all characters. In addition, FT has a lot of problems with secondary characters, which brings me to a couple more problems, being... - FT does a good job at doing what its name promises: only ever focusing on FT. Screw the other guilds, screw everyone else, the show is always, always about the mages from FT. There are secondary characters who get smth similar to a spotlight, but it's only for a short while, and they are actually unimportant people. The important and key aspects of the whole world are all about or related to FT. - Smth that's more of a random thing than a part of the anime is: Natsu only wins 1 real fight in the whole story, against the 2 dragon slayers in the Grand Magic Games, where he actually fights with experience and technique, instead of just powering up through friendship and bs. Still, I insist on making the distinction very clear: that I don't like/enjoy FT doesn't mean it's bad. If anything, I think FT is a good manga/anime. All the things I'm saying are the reasons why FT isn't really good or excellent, not reasons why FT is bad. Yeah I do agree that the fan service is a bit more than usual, but i didn't find it abusive and it is bearable without being much of a problem. I do not agree about character development. There is definitely character development throughout FT. Characters are changing, there a lot of examples - Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, Wendy, Panther Lily, Jellal, Ultear, Cobra and Mirajane are some of many. Others have changed slowly over time like Erza and Lucy. About Natsu, he has been changing slowly but admittedly has no major changes. He has been the one who changes others outlook and instigates development in his friends. I also think that there will be major character development on Natsu when the mystery behind the Dragons is solved. Your third point is only partially true as other guilds like Sabertooth, Lamia Scale and Pegasus have also received importance. There are also others who only receive some importance, but it can't be helped as you can't give a lot of screen-time to every character with a big cast. If that was done then the length of the series would nearly double and become boring. The thing is Natsu is a person whose power increases and isn't high from the start (he isn't fully a OP- comparing to other strong mages otherwise nearly everyone in FT is OP).There are many battles in which Natsu wins, but they seem easy thats why you took them as not 'real fights'. When fighting weaker opponents you defeat them with ease and you improve or 'power up' when fighting those stronger than you. Thats only understandable. In the fight against the twin dragon slayers also - Natsu was fighting 2 vs. 1 and hadn't used FTD mode, you could say that the fight was a piece of cake for him. The power-ups like DF and FTD mode are actually a part of his techniques. While Fairy Tail isn't excellent, it definitely is very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yeah I do agree that the fan service is a bit more than usual, but i didn't find it abusive and it is bearable without being much of a problem. I do not agree about character development. There is definitely character development throughout FT. Characters are changing, there a lot of examples - Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, Wendy, Panther Lily, Jellal, Ultear, Cobra and Mirajane are some of many. Others have changed slowly over time like Erza and Lucy. About Natsu, he has been changing slowly but admittedly has no major changes. He has been the one who changes others outlook and instigates development in his friends. I also think that there will be major character development on Natsu when the mystery behind the Dragons is solved. Your third point is only partially true as other guilds like Sabertooth, Lamia Scale and Pegasus have also received importance. There are also others who only receive some importance, but it can't be helped as you can't give a lot of screen-time to every character with a big cast. If that was done then the length of the series would nearly double and become boring. The thing is Natsu is a person whose power increases and isn't high from the start (he isn't fully a OP- comparing to other strong mages otherwise nearly everyone in FT is OP).There are many battles in which Natsu wins, but they seem easy thats why you took them as not 'real fights'. When fighting weaker opponents you defeat them with ease and you improve or 'power up' when fighting those stronger than you. Thats only understandable. In the fight against the twin dragon slayers also - Natsu was fighting 2 vs. 1 and hadn't used FTD mode, you could say that the fight was a piece of cake for him. The power-ups like DF and FTD mode are actually a part of his techniques. While Fairy Tail isn't excellent, it definitely is very good. From the list, of characters, I would only agree with gajeel, Laxus and Ultear. Gray hasn't really changed. Like Natsu, he's almost the same person from the begining. Gajeel and Laxus do change and evolve. Wendy has barly changed, if you really look at her. Her courage and acts of bravery are more than anything else 'spur of the moment' situations, her character is still very meek and shy. Panther Lily hasn't changed at all. Since the very begining he's a warrior of honour and such things, this being one of the reasons it's so easy for him to go over to FT. Jellal has had no development whatsoever. They basically 'resetted' him with the memory loss event, and that's that. He's basically the guy he would had been if the spirit of the tower hadn't made him go batshit crazy. Ultear does change, yes. But Cobra and Mirajane are basically the same. If Mirajane had started the story as she was during her childhood, then that would be development, but as things are, not really. About the importance thing, I already said that other guilds and people recieve importance, but the problem is that it's always due to FT in a way or another. If a matter isn't related to FT, then it isn't worth paying attention to, that's how it works, basically. Except for very few moments and situations, the rest of the world could perfectly cease to exist and noone would notice a difference. Ofc, the anime IS about FT, but there's a difference between things being related to FT, and the whole world's apparent purpose of existence being for FT to be in there and move around. The show always gives me this sensation. Finally, I think you misunderstood what I said about fights. I'm not saying Natsu doesn't power-up or that it makes no sense for becoming stronger. What I'm saying is that most arc's fights are Natsu vs a stronger mage, and Natsu becoming victorious for no reason, aka the power of friendship, the power of love, because destiny wants it so, etc. About what you said last: yes, it's very good. But you need to add smth there to be true. Fairy Tail is very good. As a shounen. It's really good, but also ridiculously simplistic, which works if you make a list of good shounens, but not if you pit FT against a general list of manga and anime of all genres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris914 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Honestly, what makes FT great for me is the Animation quality, VA and most of all OST. Also the arc story lines are good, but I do agree with Jun that character development is on the low side. As for the point that it's literally only about the guild Fairy Tail, I feel this is a bit moot. Every anime, nay every story even, has main characters, secondary characters and then minor characters. I indeed think it's one of the stronger points of this anime that they nearly always give a short bio/explanation of motivation for those minor characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouraibaa Hjyuraa Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Honestly, what makes FT great for me is the Animation quality, VA and most of all OST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 From the list, of characters, I would only agree with gajeel, Laxus and Ultear. Gray hasn't really changed. Like Natsu, he's almost the same person from the begining. Gajeel and Laxus do change and evolve. Wendy has barly changed, if you really look at her. Her courage and acts of bravery are more than anything else 'spur of the moment' situations, her character is still very meek and shy. Panther Lily hasn't changed at all. Since the very begining he's a warrior of honour and such things, this being one of the reasons it's so easy for him to go over to FT. Jellal has had no development whatsoever. They basically 'resetted' him with the memory loss event, and that's that. He's basically the guy he would had been if the spirit of the tower hadn't made him go batshit crazy. Ultear does change, yes. But Cobra and Mirajane are basically the same. If Mirajane had started the story as she was during her childhood, then that would be development, but as things are, not really. About the importance thing, I already said that other guilds and people recieve importance, but the problem is that it's always due to FT in a way or another. If a matter isn't related to FT, then it isn't worth paying attention to, that's how it works, basically. Except for very few moments and situations, the rest of the world could perfectly cease to exist and noone would notice a difference. Ofc, the anime IS about FT, but there's a difference between things being related to FT, and the whole world's apparent purpose of existence being for FT to be in there and move around. The show always gives me this sensation. Finally, I think you misunderstood what I said about fights. I'm not saying Natsu doesn't power-up or that it makes no sense for becoming stronger. What I'm saying is that most arc's fights are Natsu vs a stronger mage, and Natsu becoming victorious for no reason, aka the power of friendship, the power of love, because destiny wants it so, etc. About what you said last: yes, it's very good. But you need to add smth there to be true. Fairy Tail is very good. As a shounen. It's really good, but also ridiculously simplistic, which works if you make a list of good shounens, but not if you pit FT against a general list of manga and anime of all genres. I guess Wendy hasn't changed much, agreed. Rest though I still think they have changed. Gray has changed in his outlook as shown by the deliora arc, he left the idea of self-sacrifice. Panther Lily was at first a typical soldier only following orders, now he has become open-minded and thoughtful about his actions. Jellal has changed a lot, even after memory loss he didnt straight away change, he went through many phases - not remembering anything at start, wanting to sacrifice himself, accepting his fate to serve imprisonment and finally forming Crime Scorcire - that's quiet a bit of char development. Cobra does change, you see his different side in the Key to starry heavens arc (it was anime-only so you might not know about it if you were only reading the manga). Mirajane does change in the fact that both she and Elfman overcame their grief over Lisana's death. The characters you agreed to have character development are the ones who underwent a drastic change. Character development doesn't mean that the people have to completely change sometimes there are minor changes and generally we come to know about who they really are and what are their core motives - that is character development. As Joris said nearly every anime or story is about the main characters, take NGNL as example it is also only about sora and shiro and the people they meet. So your point is like against nearly eavery anime. As for the fights, power of friendship is more or less your will-power. Will-power does improve the situation but it is exaggerated in FT, like every shounen. The fights have a reason for which Natsu wins, only that half of the times its pretty vague. The fight against Hades is a example where it seemed like they won by bs, but actually had a lot of reasoning behind it - FTD mode, tenrou tree coming back and Devil's heart being destroyed. At the start itself I had said that it wasn't a deep anime like F/Z and is a light anime for having fun. We have different genres to support different people and different moods, sometimes I don't feel like thinking much and just want to see something light, that's where shounen comes and other times i like all the moral questions and dark nature to watch anime like Death Note and F/Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Looks Ourai has taken a liking to Lucy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouraibaa Hjyuraa Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Looks Ourai has taken a liking to Lucy Lol, I abhor her. But that's just because her name reminds me of Elfen Lied. *Shiver* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Lol, I abhor her. But that's just because her name reminds me of Elfen Lied. *Shiver* Ah yeah Elfen Lied, that is also on my list. Such a looong list..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I guess Wendy hasn't changed much, agreed. Rest though I still think they have changed. Gray has changed in his outlook as shown by the deliora arc, he left the idea of self-sacrifice. Panther Lily was at first a typical soldier only following orders, now he has become open-minded and thoughtful about his actions. Jellal has changed a lot, even after memory loss he didnt straight away change, he went through many phases - not remembering anything at start, wanting to sacrifice himself, accepting his fate to serve imprisonment and finally forming Crime Scorcire - that's quiet a bit of char development. Cobra does change, you see his different side in the Key to starry heavens arc (it was anime-only so you might not know about it if you were only reading the manga). Mirajane does change in the fact that both she and Elfman overcame their grief over Lisana's death. The characters you agreed to have character development are the ones who underwent a drastic change. Character development doesn't mean that the people have to completely change sometimes there are minor changes and generally we come to know about who they really are and what are their core motives - that is character development. As Joris said nearly every anime or story is about the main characters, take NGNL as example it is also only about sora and shiro and the people they meet. So your point is like against nearly eavery anime. As for the fights, power of friendship is more or less your will-power. Will-power does improve the situation but it is exaggerated in FT, like every shounen. The fights have a reason for which Natsu wins, only that half of the times its pretty vague. The fight against Hades is a example where it seemed like they won by bs, but actually had a lot of reasoning behind it - FTD mode, tenrou tree coming back and Devil's heart being destroyed. At the start itself I had said that it wasn't a deep anime like F/Z and is a light anime for having fun. We have different genres to support different people and different moods, sometimes I don't feel like thinking much and just want to see something light, that's where shounen comes and other times i like all the moral questions and dark nature to watch anime like Death Note and F/Z. Panther Lily was already open-minded, but simply very loyalt to a fault, which he still is. Mirajane overcame the grief of her sister's death long before the point where the story starts. She was still sad, because duh, her sister died, but that didn't hinder the character. And if you mean when Lisanna comes back, that's no development, and she's overcoming anything. That's literally the opposite of overcoming grief and growing as a character. She gets back her sister, and not gets over it. Ofc every manga and anime is about its MC. But there's a difference between the story being about them, and the story being ONLY about them. In FT, everyone is dispensable unless it's someone from FT. Anime aren't either all about the MC, or nothing about them. There are grades. And FT is very much on the side of "only FT is important." Only very few fights, like Hades', has a 'reasonable' explanation behind it, even though this example in particular is a bit weird, because there was no real reason for Laxus to just go and say "Natsu, you go and get him despite the fact that you were being wrecked real bad a second ago and I have shown I can fight him." Most fights are won through the power of love, friendship, and nonsense. And yes, we all have different genres we enjoy at different times, but where does this come from? We were discussing why I said I don't like FT a lot (and being a shounen is an excuse that only goes so far). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouraibaa Hjyuraa Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Ah yeah Elfen Lied, that is also on my list. Such a looong list..... Fine, I'll take the bait. List of what, Chaos-chan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuronX Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jun, what's an anime/manga/ln that you consider good, from a literary standpoint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jun, what's an anime/manga/ln that you consider good, from a literary standpoint? When you say literary, you mean as in heavy focus on the story? Or what? o: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuronX Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 When you say literary, you mean as in heavy focus on the story? Or what? o: Well, you always talk about how dull characters are, and how stories are full of holes. I was just wondering what one you considered good was. Not trying to attack you here or anything, just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Ariel7 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I wont let you say any of those complaints about HxH though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisAngelus Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 To each their own dudes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisAngelus Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Main reason I like FT is because it was an anime that I watched with my best friend, so good memories of long nights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Well, you always talk about how dull characters are, and how stories are full of holes. I was just wondering what one you considered good was. Not trying to attack you here or anything, just curious. Well. always always... I think we discussed SAO and FT only, and I didn't really say FT is full of holes ;D But still, if you want one anime that I feel is really good... an easy shounen example is Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, Hajime no Ippo is an excellent sports anime (or Haikyuu, but it's still ongoing), one of the best slice of life you could find would be Great Teacher Onizuka... if you really are curious, I can just make you a list of some great works (from my humble and infinitely wise point of view) of several genres, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Panther Lily was already open-minded, but simply very loyalt to a fault, which he still is. Mirajane overcame the grief of her sister's death long before the point where the story starts. She was still sad, because duh, her sister died, but that didn't hinder the character. And if you mean when Lisanna comes back, that's no development, and she's overcoming anything. That's literally the opposite of overcoming grief and growing as a character. She gets back her sister, and not gets over it. Ofc every manga and anime is about its MC. But there's a difference between the story being about them, and the story being ONLY about them. In FT, everyone is dispensable unless it's someone from FT. Anime aren't either all about the MC, or nothing about them. There are grades. And FT is very much on the side of "only FT is important." Only very few fights, like Hades', has a 'reasonable' explanation behind it, even though this example in particular is a bit weird, because there was no real reason for Laxus to just go and say "Natsu, you go and get him despite the fact that you were being wrecked real bad a second ago and I have shown I can fight him." Most fights are won through the power of love, friendship, and nonsense. And yes, we all have different genres we enjoy at different times, but where does this come from? We were discussing why I said I don't like FT a lot (and being a shounen is an excuse that only goes so far). Panther Lily isn't loyal to a fault now. About Mirajane I was not talking about when Lisanna came back but before that, when she had already overcome her grief. We are getting nowhere about the show being only about FT, I do think that you are unnecessarily exaggerating it . Laxus gave his power to Natsu as he wanted someone from the guild to beat Hades, who had attacked and the guild. It was more pride-related. The show is all about motivating people to do better and it does good in that regard. For that winning through friendship and all is a common thing. That's why I was talking about the genre, shounen fights generally are about friendship and all.... I would only say that you are being a bit too critical. The flaws you mentioned are definitely there but not of as much intensity as you are implying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Fine, I'll take the bait. List of what, Chaos-chan? You want to know the list of CHAOS ? What makes you think that a puny mortal could understand CHAOS ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Panther Lily isn't loyal to a fault now. About Mirajane I was not talking about when Lisanna came back but before that, when she had already overcome her grief. We are getting nowhere about the show being only about FT, I do think that you are unnecessarily exaggerating it . Laxus gave his power to Natsu as he wanted someone from the guild to beat Hades, who had attacked and the guild. It was more pride-related. The show is all about motivating people to do better and it does good in that regard. For that winning through friendship and all is a common thing. That's why I was talking about the genre, shounen fights generally are about friendship and all.... I would only say that you are being a bit too critical. The flaws you mentioned are definitely there but not of as much intensity as you are implying. That is true. Not gonna really hide it; I'm really, really critical when making reviews/criquites. I have read/watched a lot of manga and anime, which combined with the fact that I don't care going into essay mode and/or defending/criticizing anything, makes me a harsh reviewer. This is why, when I made the FT critique, I said that I don't like FT too much, but that I do think FT is a good anime. My objective stand is that FT is good. My subjective stand is that I don't really like/enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinalChaos Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 That is true. Not gonna really hide it; I'm really, really critical when making reviews/criquites. I have read/watched a lot of manga and anime, which combined with the fact that I don't care going into essay mode and/or defending/criticizing anything, makes me a harsh reviewer. This is why, when I made the FT critique, I said that I don't like FT too much, but that I do think FT is a good anime. My objective stand is that FT is good. My subjective stand is that I don't really like/enjoy it. Let's formally end the debate then. I assume most of you are watching the FIFA finals now, right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouraibaa Hjyuraa Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I want my own pikachu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Inoue Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I want my own pikachu. We all know it's not the charge cable that you are thinking of using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouraibaa Hjyuraa Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 We all know it's not the charge cable that you are thinking of using. D'awww, Jun is losing himself in his delusions again! Yoshi, yoshi. *pat* *pat* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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