Would VN ever recieve a Nobel Prize?

[zxdvas]

I stress the word "ever" so it is irrelevant if any VN published to date qualifies. This is meant as a hypothetical question of if VN would ever be in the same league as fiction, play, poetry etc as serious literature. Granted it is a commercial product and the script alone won't make a good VN just as a film is not defined solely by its play. But we have made enough assumptions so we may as well neglect the real world.

If this is too void to discuss, I can paraphrase it: Does Stein's Gate deserve a Nebula Award if it was published as a fiction? I would personally say it amassed more fame than most science fiction, though I am aware of being misleading. Unable to add more, I pass the time to the more informed and perspicuous.

[Narcosis]

36 minutes ago, zxdvas said:

Nebula Award

[Inorin]

VNs have to actually become mainstream before any sort of award ceremony can take place. It's all about the $$$

[Zander]

If i'm not mistaken, the Nebula Award is only awarded to American works, so I believe Stein's;Gate would be out of the running regardless. Apparently, they've recently added a Nebula Award for Best Game Writing, so I assume it would have had a chance to win that.

Considering the script of a visual novel is inherently tied to its visuals, and that they often have some form of player interaction, I don't think they can be considered to be "serious" literature alongside poetry and such, nor could they be adapted to a traditional novel without major changes and, probably, loss of quality. It'd be akin to giving the Nobel Prize to a Choose Your Own Adventure book. 

Ever tho? Maybe our standards will change and visual novels will be popular internationally when I am wrinkled and grey. But probably not any time soon. 

[Narcosis]

I don't think vn's will ever have a chance to be treated seriously due to the social stigma they bear. Perhaps the western market might change that with their "interactive fiction" approach, we'll see.

That aside, I read "grey" as "gay"

[Ranzo]

Probably not, I mean VN's are just now starting to get popular attention(of a sort) so it will most likely take fifty or more years?

So, no basically.

[Thyndd]

Nah, I can't see that happening tbh. But if VNs really got popular we could get something equivalent to the Oscars, that is, a special award ceremony, which could also be cool. 

[Toranth]

The Nobel Prize in Literature is primarily a political prize, like a lesser version of the Peace Prize.  Any VN that received the award would, without doubt, be a total piece of crap.  Looking at the inside workings of the committee that are coming out due to the sex, gambling, bribery, and undue influence scandals that past year... Yeah, no.

It would also, almost certainly, be a western language original, because it looks like no one on the committee can read Eastern languages, and translations are frequently looked down on.

 

Winning a Nebula, on the otherhand is possible.  Winning a Dragon Award - or at least, being nominated - is actually pretty likely, in the not-too-distant future.

[Dreamysyu]

Not in the next several decades, at least. Probably never. And, well, there are generally two problems with that:

1. Nobel Prize is actually a very politicized award. Even prizes in Physics are often given to the countries rather than the people. And it's especially true for Nobel Prize in literature. There's no way something as niche as VNs is going to get it.
2. With all honesty, VNs right now are still not at the level to actually compete with the best literature works. Whether it's going to change in the future is very much debatable and depends on too many factors, so I'm not going to comment on that.

 

[Thyndd]

1 hour ago, Dreamysyu said:

With all honesty, VNs right now are still not at the level to actually compete with the best literature works. Whether it's going to change in the future is very much debatable and depends on too many factors, so I'm not going to comment on that.

I think that the main point is not whether VNs are gonna ever win a Nobel or similar prizes (probably not though ), but whether they deserve it. 

I remember discussing this same topic in another thread some time ago, and my position, which I still hold, is that it's ultimately unfair to compare classical literature with VNs. It's a very different medium if you look at it closely, even though it might be hard to realize at first due to writing being at the core of the work in both cases. But the thing is, you wouldn't judge the script of a movie the same way you judge a novel, right? They serve different purposes. There's no doubt that the writing in literature is more intrincate as it carries a lot more weight on its shoulders: the picture that is conveyed to the reader depends on how well the writer is able to handle all the details without breaking the immersive experience or the fluidity of the narrative. That's a very delicate balance. It takes way more technical skill to write a classical novel than the script of a VN, that's a fact. In that sense of course VNs couldn't never hope to stand a chance. But it's really unfair because the medium itself is limiting the writing. While novels writing is absolutely free, VNs have lots of constraints. Not to say that is a bad thing, what's happening is that the narrative must support the visuals and the first person experience that it promotes. The art, the voice acting, the soundtrack, whatever interaction with the reader there might be and the multiple choices and results, all must work together to generate a cohesive experience. Thus the superficial writing is relegated to mostly dialogue and a good amount of internal monologue. Even then, it's not that it's easy. As a matter of fact, most writers I know told me that writing a natural dialogue that suits the characters and atmosphere of the moment is one of the hardest tasks to tackle and the trademark of a good writer. 

To summarize, I believe that VNs and classical novels, though similar at first glance, are two worlds apart and should not be lumped together to be judged. 

As for whether there are VNs whose overall storytelling and worldbuilding fare well against literature classics, I would say that yeah, there are, but then again that's really difficult to assess for the reasons I discussed and could perfectly be my biased fanatism talking, so could we just leave it at the fact that there are incredibly awesome VNs out there who deserve to win a prize on their own category? 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Thyndd

[Hetzer123]

.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Hetzer123

[Thyndd]

59 minutes ago, Hetzer123 said:

Maybe we should create our own VN awards. Based so technical aspect, VN are games so they are more likely to receive those game awards.

I mean, I could go around handing out awards myself left and right and nobody would care. An award has relevance to the extent that people respects it as a trustworthy measure of the quality  (that being the reason why nobody respects the Oscars anymore).

But sure, it could at least be fun times. Actually, I find it surprising that it doesn't exist already... 

[VirginSmasher]

Sorry. Don't think a medium that has the reputation of "Porn Games" attached to it will ever be capable of winning any Nobel awards.

[Kurisu-Chan]

"please, kami, help us!"

-Sakura whatever the name you want it to be.

 

You have your answer to VNs receiving a nebula award. 

[Freestyle80]

I mean this is still one of the least popular form of entertainment outside of Japan, anime manga LNs outclass it by miles 

 

many people still dont know what VNs are and only heard of 'eroge' through anime  

[WorldofAI]

Keep in mind that most recipients of the Nobel prize regardless of subject are in their 60s and 70s. They have been at their profession for many years before they were able to become notable enough to be nominated for the Nobel prize. I don’t think any of the VN writers have been writing for that long... 10 years, maybe, but 40 years? Don’t think so.

Also, looking at the people of the Swedish Academy, the deciders for the winner of the Nobel prize in literature, I doubt any of them would pick up a VN or anime, manga, LN.

[Funyarinpa]

No. Hell no. 

There are two main reasons:

1. The less controversial reason is simply that visual novels are not popular enough. They barely have an international audience as it stands, not to mention the borderline nonexistent non-Japanese VN development industry. Besides being dominated by a single language/country/culture/market, they aren't in text form like plays or poetry can be. They're software. Visual novels are an exceedingly young genre (particularly outside Japan), and as such don't have an established tradition (though they do have tropes) and they thus don't really reflect different cultures or have distinct schools of thought. The fact that you need -at the very least- a capable:
1. composer
2. programmer
3. writer
4. artist
for a given visual novel hurts these chances too. For a novel, you need an author and an editor. Give them two years. Done. Not so simple for a visual novel.

2. The genre simply isn't mature or serious enough. The vast majority of VNs out there, like many anime, go for a non-ambitious slice of life or romantic comedy story. If not that, they tend to stick to many anime/manga tropes on top of the genre's tropes on its own. I'm talking about how the choices-influence-storyline idea is almost always used as skill/luck/walkthrough usage checks for getting into a girl's p-p-panties~. I'm talking about the overwhelming usage of anime/manga styling and characters (all your -dere). And when a VN does get popular for something except cute anime girls, it's more often than not for action or suspense or murder mystery (F/SN, Steins; Gate, Umineko). This doesn't mean they automatically lack merit (Umineko is one of the most emotional and profound visual novels out there and it has sideboob demons, bunny girls shooting missiles, and goat vore). However, even such serious VNs often end up bashing you in the head with their messaging, or lack enough depth to go for a second read. They don't lend themselves very well to analysis. Few VNs out there deal with real-life matters or issues, such as a particular war or a particular culture, and this matters. Few VNs out there dabble with legitimate philosophy or truly have something original to say. Furthermore, very few VNs try to expand what the medium can do. Playing with perspective, how the text is displayed, how choices are made and how their consequences are conveyed- too few VNs play with these ideas, and the genre is considerably worse off for it. Particularly notably, how almost every high-profile protagonist here is a good old straight white high school age regular guy and how so many stories take place in a high school setting (at least partly, and with a predominantly high school cast). It hurts this genre.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Funyarinpa

[Okarin]

Hey, in 20 years anything is possible...

[littleshogun]

Sorry for the bump here, but I've been want to answer this for a while. Anyway, as far as Nobel prize for VNs I think it would be quite impossible for now (It may be possible later). The reason is other than controversial reason (Nobel for Peace is usually the most politicized and most polarizing one compared to the rest, although the others did have fair share of that though) it would be the work of the winner in question, which surely was more complex compared to the VNs. Granted there's MLA in which it also deal with the war message and PTSD, but in the end it's still not enough to win Nobel because it still have the cute girls and more importantly it's still not influental enough (Maybe). Same goes with Subahibi in which while it have some philosophy and might be able to influence the reader, it's still not as complex as the winner of the Noble works.

PS - As for Nebula, interesting that we gonna have video game script category, but apparently we still didn't have the winner for that so we can't compare the winner to the VNs.

[Sparteh]

Since it was bumped once before, I don't think it will really matter if I do it as well. My personal answer - not likely. Why?

The main reason is the content of VNs. It was mentioned before that VNs have sort of stigma which would cause problems, but that stigma exists for a reason. Lets look at VNDB. It has over 22k VNs in its database. How many of them have actual plot which is more than "MC sleeps with a girl and a short sidestory"? 300-400? That is about 1.5%. The remaining 98.5% are already dragging the potential down. Now, how many of them is actually good and carries some sort of message? Answer is not many. Many of them are further ruined by useless h-scenes. The vast majority of the world enjoy porn, but would never admit it loud due to the reactions of others. H-scenes and cliche high school setting are like cancer killing its victim. 

Now, lets look a little further. VNs by their very nature consists of routes. In order for them to reach that great of the level, all of the routes have to be amazing in quality. For example, Steins;Gate. The true route is without a doubt one of the best stories I have ever read in all forms of literature. However, side routes were not good. How could something be rewarded if you had to say something like "the main part was good, BUT that part was trash"...

Thematically, such VNs as Umineko - for obvious reasons, ML Alternative - war, PTSD etc., S;G - space and time, cause and effect, Baldr Sky Dive - human, machines, AI, KnS - tragedy, loneliness and acceptance, have potential, but there is just something dragging them down. 

[Czero]

It'd be nice to see, but unlikely.

[littleshogun]

I'll elaborate Sparteh by saying that after all it would be impossible to have VNs won the Nobel. As for the reason why, I'll write it here but before that here's the criteria for the winner, although granted it might not quite objective because it was from the Nobel committee site itself. For the reasons, I would say that none of the VNs is fulfill the pioneer category because some of the previous works did have more or less same content, especially with MLA in regard of war. For universal interest categories, keep in mind that most of adult wouldn't interested with thing such as giant robot and AI in which it was featured by both of MLA and Baldr Sky respectively. As for Umineko, let's just said that leotard wearing girls surely won't make the judge interested, and moreso for Kara no Shoujo because we have the teacher sexed with the students.

tldr - While there's some VN with the heave theme, keep in mind that it should be accepted by a lot of people and I think with the usual stereotype the VN itselves already have a hard time to be accepted by a lot of people.

PS - It should be noted that usually the winner is either poem, play, or novel book.

[Sparteh]

18 hours ago, littleshogun said:

I'll elaborate Sparteh by saying that after all it would be impossible to have VNs won the Nobel. As for the reason why, I'll write it here but before that here's the criteria for the winner, although granted it might not quite objective because it was from the Nobel committee site itself. For the reasons, I would say that none of the VNs is fulfill the pioneer category because some of the previous works did have more or less same content, especially with MLA in regard of war. For universal interest categories, keep in mind that most of adult wouldn't interested with thing such as giant robot and AI in which it was featured by both of MLA and Baldr Sky respectively. As for Umineko, let's just said that leotard wearing girls surely won't make the judge interested, and moreso for Kara no Shoujo because we have the teacher sexed with the students.

tldr - While there's some VN with the heave theme, keep in mind that it should be accepted by a lot of people and I think with the usual stereotype the VN itselves already have a hard time to be accepted by a lot of people.

PS - It should be noted that usually the winner is either poem, play, or novel book.

I did mention that there is just something dragging it down. However, I would like to comment something you mentioned. Even if we change Nobel to any other literally contest which has more than average importance and different criteria, the result would be the same. In order for something of that level to be created and approved, it is necessary to have good popularity, fame etc. With the current content of an average VN, it is impossible for this format to become popular. One could easily recommend a book to someone else, but if he or she tried to achieve the same with VN, they would likely be misunderstood and made fun off.

From my personal point of view, VNS MUST: get rid off h-content (except for those stories which primarily focus on it)>reduce amount of high school as the main setting>make some serious VNs (imagine if we had hundreds instead of 10 or so VNs on S;G level or above).

After this much, companies would at least have a way to enter western markets, because now, they don't even have a good product to sell.

As for those few VNs we discussed, KnS teacher/student part at least barely fits the story based on time when action takes place. In many countries it was pretty common occurrence during those times. I wouldn't be so sure about AI and giant robots. Matrix did have a cult following, while Transformers still make tons of cash even though everything besides special effects is bad in those films. Heck, the current superhero culture is much more ridiculous.