Jump to content

Valve threatening to remove VNs with adult content from steam?


phantomJS

Recommended Posts

17 minutes ago, Zander said:

Oh, I apologise, I misunderstood you. I do think they have reason to single out anime stuff, though, considering it seems to be the source of all of the recent tension over what should and should not be on the store, as well as their propensity to include sexual content. 

Yes, but it could've been done in a bit more neutral manner, to put it lightly. I'm also not the only one who had this impression, although I wouldn't fixate on it too much either, overall this is good news. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Overall this is actually absolutely great news, but I'm sure you're all aware of that already.

Since Steam is saying "Anything goes", this could even potentially mean that 18+ patches could, like Antera said, be publicly released, and it could even possibly be within the game, no patch required.

Another good thing about this is that it makes much of a less incentive for shitty companies (like MoeNovel) to remove 18+ scenes from the visual novels they butcher.  That way, anyone who uses Steam and is aware of this update to their rules (Which I'm assuming will be mentioned and detailed for everyone using Steam) will know exactly what MoeNovel is doing (as well as any other VN dev/company who region-locks/language-locks their 18+ scenes) with the scenes.

This also means that they'll know just exactly how scummy MoeNovel are if they choose to release VN's in the future with butchered scenes thanks to removal of 18+ moments, which makes boycotting them much easier should push come to shove.

And last but not least, this will drastically improve popularity for Western visual novels because creators and developers will feel less pressurized by appealing to all demographics; now they can choose which demographic to appeal to, which would be only people who actually like visual novels/anime/manga/etc.  Less pressure = more quality & quantity of western visual novels.

And to add to my final point, this also puts much less pressure onto VN companies who are afraid of 18+ rules on Steam.  Since they are effectively gone (To my understanding) they don't need to be afraid of censoring the games and can just release it with translations as is.  IMHHW had the big problem of over-censorship and the result was a catastrophe which involved big eyes, 12 year old french girls and jokes that fall flat.  Assuming that they decide to drop the whole "12 year old french girl appeal" bullshit because they realize it's much easier to appeal to an older demographic (and much better in terms of sales) it puts much less pressure on them.  This also applies to pretty much every company/developer that creates 18+ Visual Novels; less focus on censorship = better translated lines and scenes = higher quality = win/win.

Now the only problem from all of this is the possibility that Steam decides to actually enforce an 18+ rule in terms of nudity.  I'd find it stupid if they did, particularly because 1. Less sales, 2. Less products, and 3. They're removing practically every other rule, and it'd be stupid to just keep this specific one in.  However, knowing Steam and how stupid they are with their rules and the way they enforce them, it's unfortunately a possibility that should be considered.

I'm going to have some naive trust in Steam for now and hope they make the right decision with this.  With what they just recently did, I think it's fair to say they deserve a small bit of applause, since it's a pretty ballsy move that could possibly lead to lots of negative media.  At the same time, however, this gives so much room for developers to move freely with their products and act more personal with their consumers, which is an incredibly good thing.

I feel that I'm probably a bit too happy over this and too enthusiastic; there's totally a possibility that this doesn't change much, true, but I personally believe that this will make more close-knit communities between the players and the developers, as well as putting much less pressure on developers and companies when it comes to censoring their games.  Of course, company politics is also a part of it; I know the whole "12 year old French Girls" meme was a decision made by MoeNovel/Pulltop themselves, but what's important is whether or not they'll change it in light of the changes to Steam's rules, which allows much more leniency on which demographic developers want to target.

Again, probably too hopeful.  But it's good to feel hopeful every now and then.  Especially since I have like 3 projects due tomorrow.  I need all the damn hope I can get, lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what this announcement means for eroge.  It seems like the intent is a relaxation of content guidelines, but beyond that there's a number of unanswered questions.  Most notably: is hardcore porn now allowed?  That would mean Valve is stepping into the porn retail business.  The language doesn't exclude this possibility, but doesn't support it either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

I'm not sure what this announcement means for eroge.  It seems like the intent is a relaxation of content guidelines, but beyond that there's a number of unanswered questions.  Most notably: is hardcore porn now allowed?  That would mean Valve is stepping into the porn retail business.  The language doesn't exclude this possibility, but doesn't support it either.

I think they might make it so they're more lenient on pornographic content; I assume they still won't be allowing straight up porn onto Steam, but at the same time I'm aware that they have games like Witcher 3 on their platform, which does have straight up sex in one (or more) scene(s).

If we're lucky, they will allow pornographic content on Steam.  This probably wouldn't be good for their public rep, but I'm assuming it'll be much less worse since they'll probably bundle it in with the "anything goes" introduction.  This is pretty much the most optimistic view of it.

The most pessimistic view would be them not allowing it whatsoever, but still allowing visual novels.  This would mean that official patches for VN's would still have to be linked by fans of the game rather than the creators of it.  It's not that bad, but this could also mean that shit companies/devs like MoeNovel would use it as an excuse to not release the 18+ parts whatsoever in their English TL's.

The most centrist view of it would be that they'll allow the developers of VN's to post about it, regarding it as a "modification" to the game.  I mean, if you look at it, technically, Skyrim (among many, many other games with mods) could be considered a pornographic game thanks to a few mods from LoversLab that allow sex, nudity, etc.  Therefor, introducing the nudity as a "mod" for the game should get it past its barriers, allowing it to be introduced very freely and openly by the developers.  Unfortunately this might also be a good enough excuse for shithead companies/devs like MoeNovel to restrict 18+ scenes, since I assume they're just looking for the easiest way out of doing more work and make the most money.

I think that even if Steam/ValvE allowed pornographic content onto their platform, they wouldn't go to the extent of allowing straight up Porn or Nukiges onto the platform.  I don't think they do even now, but I'm sure they won't in the foreseeable future, either, unless they bizarrely choose to partner up with Xvideos or Pornhub.  That would actually be pretty hilarious IMO but yeah, I really do not see that happening.

Our best bet as of now is to assume that they're going to be allowing developers of VN's to link the 18+ patches onto their discussion boards/into the extended description of the VN's they release.  I think that'd be the most reasonable outcome from all of this.  The luckiest bet would be that they straight up allow 18+ scenes in the games, which would follow what already exists in other games on Steam (GTA 5, Witcher 3, and a few others, probably)

Of course this is all speculation and these are all really unnecessarily long replies because to be quite honestly fair with you I am rather excited by what is to come with this revision of Steam rules, to be quite frankly frank and fair and honest and real with you. yes

Edited by The White Cat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

I'm not sure what this announcement means for eroge.  It seems like the intent is a relaxation of content guidelines, but beyond that there's a number of unanswered questions.  Most notably: is hardcore porn now allowed?  That would mean Valve is stepping into the porn retail business.  The language doesn't exclude this possibility, but doesn't support it either.

I think it means nothing beyong the status quo being preserved, but Valve promising not to go on arbitrary purges anymore is something. They leave themselves a few loopholes ("illegal stuff", "content not properly disclosed by the publisher") and their general stance on porn will very likely stay where it is, but the promise not to make it stricter means fully backing down from their move against VNs. 

In a way this is non-news and many people take it as such, but before it we didn't really knew what sparked the whole anti-porn mess and whether it's truly over. This comfirmation makes me happy, but it's essentially a bit of backpedalling from Steam, not a whole new policy or a real step towards allowing more porn in (although that last thing might happen to a minor degree if Valve disciplined their employees to not intervene unless something clearly breaks the rules). 

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one ever said anything about removal of 18+ guidelines and clearly Steam wrote they are still in effect. What this does change though, is that it might potentially allow uncut 18+ products on Steam in the nearest future, as long as they abide by the guidelines. Steam is based in Washington, so all the games released on Steam with 18+ content will still have to abide by their laws. This means - amongst other things - no loli/shota porn or other borderline content, like bestiality etc. They will probably continue to monitor and ensure some sort of quality in terms of games allowed to go, but they won't put any restrictions on available content, as long as it doesn't break laws.

I presume Steam will still want to include some sort of tags or centralized space to actually include all the 18+ products, if that happens, out for clarity's sake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, The White Cat said:

I think they might make it so they're more lenient on pornographic content; I assume they still won't be allowing straight up porn onto Steam, but at the same time I'm aware that they have games like Witcher 3 on their platform, which does have straight up sex in one (or more) scene(s).

If we're lucky, they will allow pornographic content on Steam.  This probably wouldn't be good for their public rep, but I'm assuming it'll be much less worse since they'll probably bundle it in with the "anything goes" introduction.  This is pretty much the most optimistic view of it.

The most pessimistic view would be them not allowing it whatsoever, but still allowing visual novels.  This would mean that official patches for VN's would still have to be linked by fans of the game rather than the creators of it.  It's not that bad, but this could also mean that shit companies/devs like MoeNovel would use it as an excuse to not release the 18+ parts whatsoever in their English TL's.

The most centrist view of it would be that they'll allow the developers of VN's to post about it, regarding it as a "modification" to the game.  I mean, if you look at it, technically, Skyrim (among many, many other games with mods) could be considered a pornographic game thanks to a few mods from LoversLab that allow sex, nudity, etc.  Therefor, introducing the nudity as a "mod" for the game should get it past its barriers, allowing it to be introduced very freely and openly by the developers.  Unfortunately this might also be a good enough excuse for shithead companies/devs like MoeNovel to restrict 18+ scenes, since I assume they're just looking for the easiest way out of doing more work and make the most money.

I think that even if Steam/ValvE allowed pornographic content onto their platform, they wouldn't go to the extent of allowing straight up Porn or Nukiges onto the platform.  I don't think they do even now, but I'm sure they won't in the foreseeable future, either, unless they bizarrely choose to partner up with Xvideos or Pornhub.  That would actually be pretty hilarious IMO but yeah, I really do not see that happening.

Our best bet as of now is to assume that they're going to be allowing developers of VN's to link the 18+ patches onto their discussion boards/into the extended description of the VN's they release.  I think that'd be the most reasonable outcome from all of this.  The luckiest bet would be that they straight up allow 18+ scenes in the games, which would follow what already exists in other games on Steam (GTA 5, Witcher 3, and a few others, probably)

Of course this is all speculation and these are all really unnecessarily long replies because to be quite honestly fair with you I am rather excited by what is to come with this revision of Steam rules, to be quite frankly frank and fair and honest and real with you. yes

The witcher 3 is nothing but softcore if anything. Kind of different than what VN's are doing (mosaics aside)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After giving it some thought, I can't see this new policy working for Valve.  I see another train wreck in the future, and it goes like this:

  1. White supremacists (or, say, Holocaust denialists) will start putting stuff on Steam
  2. Valve and/or the public will freak out over it
  3. The controversy becomes so great that they have to change course
  4. Once again, Valve will have told people 'this is okay' and then come back and change their minds
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Nandemonai said:

After giving it some thought, I can't see this new policy working for Valve.  I see another train wreck in the future, and it goes like this:

  1. White supremacists (or, say, Holocaust denialists) will start putting stuff on Steam
  2. Valve and/or the public will freak out over it
  3. The controversy becomes so great that they have to change course
  4. Once again, Valve will have told people 'this is okay' and then come back and change their minds

Valve stated they will be removing illegal contents. This could be used to remove either of your examples without going back on what they said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

It's not illegal to be a white supremacist or a Holocaust denialist.  (Well, it's illegal to be a Holocaust denialist in Germany, but not in the US)

They didn't specify where it would have to be illegal and Valve do sell in Germany too. It's actually an American ban since post ww2, the US forced Germany and Austria to ban support of what was viewed as an anti-American ideology.

However I was actually thinking of another kind of law, one I assume is present in America as well. It's illegal to encourage other people to commit crime. Steam recently kicked out an announced game prior to release because it turned out to be a first person shooter where the player is a school shooter and apparently made in a way which should encourage such actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, that's governed by this test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

There is absolutely no way that the school shooter game would run afoul of this.  It's 100% legal.  Valve also is entitled not to sell it if they don't want to - that's also 100% legal - but nobody is going to prison because they were involved in the creation of that game.

As for the 'they didn't specify where it's illegal' thing, they already deal with that. Legal restrictions are only applied in the relevant territory.  Otherwise all those WW2 games with Nazi insignia wouldn't be on Steam at all; that's illegal in Germany too.

So no, if Valve actually follows through with this, there is nothing preventing Active Shooter from being sold on Steam, or basically anything. Being a white supremacist is not illegal.  Advocating for white supremacy is also not illegal.  Making white supremacist propaganda is not illegal either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...