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phantomJS

My experiences using JPN TL software and web translators to TL JPN VNs

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51 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

I didn't manage to find any 'MTL scams' sources

VNDB used to be full of those and whenever somebody complained about lack of quality, somebody could reply "just do this and that and that problem is fixed". If you paid attention, you would realize it would grow into an endless list of fixes and it still wouldn't become anywhere near anything, which could be considered quality. It also totally ignored editing. I will call that a scam because it made people spend a lot of time doing more and more stuff and never reach the result they were promised.

I stopped paying attention to the VNDB boards and it might have vanished by now. After all it was a keyword to start a fight and they did ban a bunch of people for always somehow being involved whenever a thread turned into a fight.

51 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

you could had explained your reasons of your apathy towards MTL at the start instead of leaving it to the very last post -_-

But then the thread would be short and boring :P

I don't think I didn't explain anything earlier on. I added more details and tried explaining in a new way when it would appear people didn't get my point. To get my full point, you should read all my posts combined and not just assume the last is the final or complete one.

51 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

Calm down bro :)

As always I am calm. If online stupidity/ignorance would upset me, then I would have had a heart attack ages ago.

Edited by tymmur

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11 minutes ago, tymmur said:

But then the thread would be short and boring :P

I don't think I didn't explain anything earlier on. I added more details and tried explaining in a new way when it would appear people didn't get my point. To get my full point, you should read all my posts combined and not just assume the last is the final or complete one.

I was referring to this post:

7 hours ago, tymmur said:

I didn't say anything about VN haters. My main point is that there are people in the VN community, which praises MT and assume it can do stuff it can't. My point is that MT has a tendency to not only has a tendency to skip details, but also make up stuff. In other words using MT on a VN will result in a rewritten story, one where no human has looked at it for continuity or anything. If it's a new story made up based on CGs and written by somebody who cares, then there is a chance it will have a continuing story between the lines and scenes.

The main reason for my reaction here is not that I want to ban you from using MT if you really want to. I would not recommend it, but I won't try to convince you or ban you from doing so. The issue I have with this is encouraging other people to use MT. There are claims that you can get decent quality if you do it right and you will never suffer from titles not being translated and stuff like that. Claims like that are completely false and they serve mainly to trick people into thinking they start doing the right thing when they start to figure out how to use MT. Many people who believe it will start using MT and eventually regret it, calling it a complete waste of time. In other words praise of MT can arguably be called a scam, which end up wasting time for people.

I think it comes down to something else as well, which is editing. I read text before and after editing and here I made an important realization. The content was the same (more or less), but the edited script had become way more interesting to read. It's not just what it says, but particularly how it says it, which results in the reading pleasure. In other words even if the MT gets the translation down sort of ok, the editing will be awful, which will hurt the reading pleasure. MT can do a decent job if your task is to figure out say a manual for some software you try to figure out. It will not work well if you want anything with reading pleasure.

Your earlier posts feels a lot like blatant MTL bashing / Japanese proficiency elitism with posts such as this:

19 hours ago, tymmur said:

By the time you reached what is supposedly claimed to be acceptable MT level, if you had spent the same amount of time on ITH+TA+jparser and studied Japanese grammar, you would likely have ended up with the ability to read Japanese on a level where you have a decent chance of beating MT on quality and unlike MT, you have a chance to improve by just reading more.

If you claim you don't have the time to study Japanese to even reach this level, then apparently you don't have the time to set up MT or even read VNs either.

Which is why I reacted the way I did

Also:

15 minutes ago, tymmur said:

As always I am calm. If online stupidity/ignorance would upset me, then I would have had a heart attack ages ago.

I'm not directing the 'calm down' comment at you, but rather at Toranth :sleep:

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29 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

Your earlier posts feels a lot like blatant MTL bashing / Japanese proficiency elitism with posts such as this:

Point taken. I wrote something, but due to not being as verbose as usual, it could be read in multiple ways. I would classify this as a misunderstanding rather than an actual fight. An interesting fact is that I have seen real eliteism, going as far as to say even human translations done correctly with editors and quality control and everything should be considered bad because no translation is perfect and that people shouldn't be allowed to read VNs if they can't read them untranslated. I hate people like that and I have no intention of ever joining the group of people who thinks like that.

My statement still stand. If you get a list of all the stuff you apparently need to do to Atlas in order to make it "perfect", by the time you have figured out how to get Atlas to do that, if you had spent the same amount of time on just studying Japanese, there is a real chance you could beat Atlas in translation quality. If your setup is to just to forward everything to Google translate, then my statement isn't true, but I was thinking of the Atlas setup. In theory Atlas is vastly superior because it's actually doing grammatical analysis on the text. It does come at the price that you need to teach it words and give it grammatical rules to follow when the word is encountered (noun, gender of person etc), hence why setup could become time consuming.

31 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

I'm not directing the 'calm down' comment at you, but rather at Toranth :sleep:

Ahh, it was only the inside of () that was aimed at me. I did get somewhat confused with the following statement as it has nothing to do with what I wrote. Once again the start of a conflict, which was actually just a misunderstanding.

1 hour ago, phantomJS said:

Replying like you did can't make us see your points and feelings.

 

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2 hours ago, Zander said:

I said there's nothing with helping other people to MTL, quoting from Kiri's post, not encouraging them to do so. There is indeed a distinction. If someone choose on their own that they want to read a MTL of something, a guide is all well and good. If they wrote up a blog post called "Why MTL is great and why you should use it", I'm sure we'd hold the same thoughts on it. And so you still think that I'll get a crappy mixed up view of  Relaxation Yuka En ~Hitozuma Therapist ni Yoru Sentai~ (NSFW)? MTL is perfect to use for something where the actual written content is not the primary appeal, which is the majority of untranslated VNs (atleast according to VNDB). And why would you prefer to avoid someone doing something that they ultimately enjoy? It doesn't harm anyone as long as it is is not disseminated, as I stated, and there is no overbearing need to discuss visual novels. 

I see no meaningful distinction between helping someone to do something and encouraging them to do it, but if you do, whatever.  As I said before, the position of "Friends don't let friends machine translate" is half humor - associating it with harmful activities in a exaggerated manner.  While I do agree that, ultimately, people can do whatever they want to themselves, I'm allowed to have opinions about what they do as well.  Some people enjoy self-flagellation, but I think they're crazy.  If someone bought Da Vinci's notebooks only to use them as toilet paper, I'd be annoyed.  If someone buys an expensive prime Kobe steak, well spiced and deliciously rare cooked, then puts ketchup on it, I'd be annoyed.  And if someone uses machine translation to 'read' a visual novel like Akeiro Kaikitan or Haruka ni Aogi, Uruwashi no then I get annoyed. 

Especially when they then try to discuss their experience with others.  As I said before, it's only slightly better than trying to discuss the game with someone who hasn't played it at all.  For example, before the Fate English translation came out, it was annoyingly common to have people who'd used a text hooker and machine translator to try to discuss the story.  They were frequently wrong: about events, motivations, even names - but somehow that never stopped people from strenuously presenting their views.

Crappy games, like most nukige, I care little about.  Some nukige are solid VNs, even outside the porn - some Eushully games, for example, or the HEAT-SOFT Magic Girl series.  But few people are interested in discussing fap scenes in ANY language, and I'm not one of them.  I do care about good stories, and when machine translations mess them up, I'm get annoyed.

Now, selling machine translations - or ANY bad translation - is a little different.  It's a more extreme version of my views, because now they aren't just presenting a crappy version, they're asking for money.  And like selling fansubs, that's just a jerk thing to do.

 

2 hours ago, Zander said:

I would be very amused to hear you state where I insulted you. I don't believe I did. Please calm down.

In your very first post in this thread, you insulted Kiriririri's "Japanese fetishism" and "elitism".  I did mistakenly attribute the phantomJS's middle fingers to you as well - sorry.  pJS, naughty naughty *wags finger*.

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1 hour ago, Toranth said:

I see no meaningful distinction between helping someone to do something and encouraging them to do it, but if you do, whatever.  As I said before, the position of "Friends don't let friends machine translate" is half humor - associating it with harmful activities in a exaggerated manner.  While I do agree that, ultimately, people can do whatever they want to themselves, I'm allowed to have opinions about what they do as well.  Some people enjoy self-flagellation, but I think they're crazy.  If someone bought Da Vinci's notebooks only to use them as toilet paper, I'd be annoyed.  If someone buys an expensive prime Kobe steak, well spiced and deliciously rare cooked, then puts ketchup on it, I'd be annoyed.  And if someone uses machine translation to 'read' a visual novel like Akeiro Kaikitan or Haruka ni Aogi, Uruwashi no then I get annoyed. 

Especially when they then try to discuss their experience with others.  As I said before, it's only slightly better than trying to discuss the game with someone who hasn't played it at all.  For example, before the Fate English translation came out, it was annoyingly common to have people who'd used a text hooker and machine translator to try to discuss the story.  They were frequently wrong: about events, motivations, even names - but somehow that never stopped people from strenuously presenting their views.

Crappy games, like most nukige, I care little about.  Some nukige are solid VNs, even outside the porn - some Eushully games, for example, or the HEAT-SOFT Magic Girl series.  But few people are interested in discussing fap scenes in ANY language, and I'm not one of them.  I do care about good stories, and when machine translations mess them up, I'm get annoyed.

One thing I would like to add is, yes you are allowed to have your opinion and subsequently express them as well , especially on the Internet. However, we are free to express our contradictory and differentiate opinions as opposed to your own as well (btw I'm not insulating you didn't know about this beforehand :sleep:) . Take this comment of yours for example: 

8 hours ago, Toranth said:

You said "There is nothing wrong with machine translation".  If there was nothing wrong with it, it would be accurate and representative of the source material.

You are encouraging other people to use machine translation, which produces crap translations.  To quote: "There's also nothing wrong with that [encouraging other people to use machine translation]"
.  That's encouraging other people to get a crappy, mixed-up view of the games - which is exactly the thing that many of us who like visual novels would prefer to avoid.

This posts gives off a very strong MTL bashing vibe, and makes it feel as if you are trying to force your values and thoughts down people's throat. I wanted to write a far longer response to express my (opposing) thoughts, but frankly am a bit sick of continuing to debate on MTL in this thread. Anyway, I believe a smart individual such as you will see my point ;)

1 hour ago, Toranth said:

In your very first post in this thread, you insulted Kiriririri's "Japanese fetishism" and "elitism".  I did mistakenly attribute the phantomJS's middle fingers to you as well - sorry.  pJS, naughty naughty *wags finger*.

If you want to blame, blame Kiriri, or more precisely his post. Although I certainly didn't take it seriously as I know how he usually posts (hence, my obviously joking middle finger reply.. or at least I hoped it was obvious :P), it can easily be misunderstood as blatant MTL bashing and elitism by someone else.

Anyway, Zander simply told Kiri to take his supposed Japanese proficiency elitism elsewhere. I don't see any insults hurled, or derogatory words / terms used (don't tell me you consider 'Japanese fetishism' and 'elitism' be derogatory:o...).

Calm down bro, seriously :kosame:....   

Edited by phantomJS

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To side-step the usual machine translation debate, it's useful to distinguish between the 'hooking' feature of these tools and the 'translation' or 'dictionary look-up' features.  Also, the relative "quality" of machine translation isn't a feature of Translation Aggregator, but rather a function of which machine translator you use.  These tools often give the user multiple options to choose from.  Most people who use machine translation agree that ATLAS provides the best result.  Whether that 'best result' is sufficient to satisfy a given user is a different matter and sort of beside the point.

Edited by sanahtlig

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I don't even get why is this a debate. Yes MTL is bad and sometimes get's things completly wrong, but it's up to the individual if they want to read that way. It hurts nobody expect the readers reading experience and that person most likely knows full well what they are getting into.

As for the original post, I find it funny how you gave up on VNR and barely looked at Chiitrans lite :D These are the ones I have been using for the past year for translating minor rpg-s. As @sanahtlig said before me, there is a difference in hooking and translation. You can use VNR to hook text to clipboard really easily and then use Chiitrans to translate from there using ATLAS to get the best result.

Edited by TheCrimsonFucker

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13 hours ago, TheCrimsonFucker said:

I don't even get why is this a debate. Yes MTL is bad and sometimes get's things completly wrong, but it's up to the individual if they want to read that way. It hurts nobody expect the readers reading experience and that person most likely knows full well what they are getting into.

This is the main issue. People encouraging other people to use MT. If you don't know much about MT or translations, then it sounds tempting and then people go into MT without knowing what they are going into. Multiple people have said the issue is not what people do themselves, but what they recommend to other people. I tried MT based on recommendations, which turned out to be based on false facts about quality.

And yes, it's important to understand what the tools does and that generally speaking, the tools aren't bad. Both text hooking and Translation Aggregator works well for both MT and as assistance for reading Japanese. In fact getting the text as text is extremely valuable if you want to copy paste kanji or words into dictionaries or similar.

Likewise machine translations is not all bad. They actually do ok in some cases. They handle technical descriptions surprisingly well (with occasional big blunders) while they do worse with spoken language. The problem with MT VNs is that they not only aim at using the least good part of MT, it also relies on expressions and references, which MT can't handle, making it even more confused. To top it off, MT is designed to translate contents, not anything related to reading pleasure. In other words you will likely have better luck using Google Translate on wikipedia pages than using it on VNs.

Edited by tymmur

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33 minutes ago, tymmur said:

This is the main issue. People encouraging other people to use MT. If you don't know much about MT or translations, then it sounds tempting and then people go into MT without knowing what they are going into. Multiple people have said the issue is not what people do themselves, but what they recommend to other people. I tried MT based on recommendations, which turned out to be based on false facts about quality.

Just wanna say, in case you are implying so, that this thread was not posted for the purpose of promoting MTL but instead serve as a reference to people who are looking to MTL VNs by their own wishes.

Also, whether or not the opinion MTL-ing VN > or = learning Japanese  to read JPN Vns is correct or not, you (and many others that replied in this thread) could have disagreed and explained your stance and reasons on why you think MTL-ing VN is very bad. Instead, you (like others here) adopted a very hard line and very condescending attitude towards MTL, which I feel is very over-the-top among other thoughts that I have.

Besides, if MTL really is that bad, then users will run for the hills once they had tried it for themselves without additional peer pressure from you all (setting it up is also very easy if you do it correctly as I had shown. This ofc exclude the ALTAS setting). If a substantial amount of users show otherwise, means it invalidates what you all were saying all along. This is not drugs where once you tried it, it will most probably ruin your life. There's no need to take such a strong and forceful tone towards MTL.

Well, if one thing you had taught me in this thread, it's to steer clear of this topic as much as possible / totally in Fuwanovel. I'll be sure to do that considering the shit-storm that I had stirred up in this thread :sleep:

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1 hour ago, phantomJS said:

Also, whether or not the opinion MTL-ing VN > or = learning Japanese  to read JPN Vns is correct or not, you (and many others that replied in this thread) could have disagreed and explained your stance and reasons on why you think MTL-ing VN is very bad. Instead, you (like others here) adopted a very hard line and very condescending attitude towards MTL, which I feel is very over-the-top among other thoughts that I have.

 

I don't know, I'm pretty sure everyone explained that MTL is bad, because, you know, the translation is wrong. I think you're able to defend MTL that much for now because you basically have almost no Japanese knowledge. As you said you were learning, I wonder what your stance will be in a few months once you'll have enough knowledge to realise how bad MTL is.

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43 minutes ago, Riku said:

I don't know, I'm pretty sure everyone explained that MTL is bad, because, you know, the translation is wrong. I think you're able to defend MTL that much for now because you basically have almost no Japanese knowledge. As you said you were learning, I wonder what your stance will be in a few months once you'll have enough knowledge to realise how bad MTL is.

My opinion on MTL may change down the road (for the record, having first hand experience in this, I think it can give you a decent experience only if you can fulfill a very specific set of requirements. For most users, MTL will give them a terrible experience), but my stance will always be to let the users know what I think of a particular subject and why and let them choose for themselves what is right. This will not change even after if I become proficient in Japanese. Besides, like I said, users will automatically avoid MTL if it's inherently bad. I personally see no point in and do not like forcing my thoughts and opinions on people.

All of the above is just my personal opinion. I am not attacking your own perspective / stance / opinion, have hidden some meaning in this post, or anything similar.

Thank you very much Sir :sleep:

Edited by phantomJS

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1 hour ago, phantomJS said:

you (and many others that replied in this thread) could have disagreed and explained your stance and reasons on why you think MTL-ing VN is very bad.

Did you even read what I wrote? Here is a summary:

  • translation tend to be incorrect
  • lines can appear like they are somewhat correct without being so, creating a false sense of trust in the translation quality
  • translation doesn't take context into consideration
  • no consistency, like an object or person can change name, which hides it's the same object
  • no editing. You focus on decoding the text rather than on the contents of the text, which hurts the reading enjoyment

What more do you want me to explain?

1 hour ago, phantomJS said:

Instead, you (like others here) adopted a very hard line and very condescending attitude towards MTL, which I feel is very over-the-top among other thoughts that I have.

Imagine two people with a boat and they discover a hole in it. A says if they put it in water, it will sink. B says we will never know unless we try it.

Why this story? It's because A is very absolute and it's based on knowledge, possibly even experience. B will accuse A of eliteism and wants to go ahead regardless of what A says. It's kind of like the same in this thread. If you already decided to follow the path of machine translations regardless of what other people say, you will see other people as obstructions unless they praise your choice.

18 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

my stance will always be to let the users know what I think of a particular subject and why and let them choose for themselves what is right.

Same here. If you want to use the software you mentioned, then I won't stop you. My point is (as I have written more than once by now) about recommending using machine translations to other people. Any guide or recommendation should have the disclaimer that there are serious objections due to severe quality concerns.

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24 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Did you even read what I wrote? Here is a summary:

  • translation tend to be incorrect
  • lines can appear like they are somewhat correct without being so, creating a false sense of trust in the translation quality
  • translation doesn't take context into consideration
  • no consistency, like an object or person can change name, which hides it's the same object
  • no editing. You focus on decoding the text rather than on the contents of the text, which hurts the reading enjoyment

What more do you want me to explain?

Sorry, I meant your earlier posts was strong in tone. It's a misunderstanding. Apologies for not making this clear :)

24 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Imagine two people with a boat and they discover a hole in it. A says if they put it in water, it will sink. B says we will never know unless we try it.

Why this story? It's because A is very absolute and it's based on knowledge, possibly even experience. B will accuse A of eliteism and wants to go ahead regardless of what A says. It's kind of like the same in this thread. If you already decided to follow the path of machine translations regardless of what other people say, you will see other people as obstructions unless they praise your choice.

Using MTL is very far away from your analogy. For 1, it's consequences free while your example is akin to comparing to using drugs. People using MTL can always turn to the universal recommendation in this thread, learning Japanese, with absolutely no costs.

24 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Same here. If you want to use the software you mentioned, then I won't stop you. My point is (as I have written more than once by now) about recommending using machine translations to other people. Any guide or recommendation should have the disclaimer that there are serious objections due to severe quality concerns.

Now it's my turn to ask you: did you even read what I wrote? This thread is NOT intended to promote MTL but to serve as a reference to anyone who wishes to go into MTL-ing VNs themselves.

 

Tired of this. Trust me when I say I FULLY understand yours and Fuwa-ers' hatred towards MTL. I reiterate the promise in my earlier post to stay the F away from this topic here from now on. Signing off~~

Edited by phantomJS

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27 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Same here. If you want to use the software you mentioned, then I won't stop you. My point is (as I have written more than once by now) about recommending using machine translations to other people. Any guide or recommendation should have the disclaimer that there are serious objections due to severe quality concerns.

4 minutes ago, phantomJS said:

Now it's my turn to ask you: did you even read what I wrote? This thread is NOT intended to promote MTL but to serve as a reference to anyone who wishes to go into MTL-ing VNs themselves.

I did read it and I would classify it as a guide or recommendation. In fact I would argue that it's both. When you published a guide, you will at the same time tell people it's fine to follow it. When you publish a recommendation (even an indirect recommendation), people will object to it as a recommendation.

This makes me wonder. Is it the case that people objected to the recommendation while the MT support failed to see the recommendation, meaning the split is based on how much people read from the same words. If people don't catch such a deeper meaning, they will not notice if it's gone in the MT.

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Personally I'm grateful to programs like ITHVNR and translation aggregator. Luckily voiced lines don't really matter to me as i understand those mostly. Kanji/hiragana is where I'm stuck, and thanks to mecab and jparser i can nicely gloss over it (of course its not perfect but its decent most of the time) while every now and then glancing at atlas and google translate.

With that said i did notice something funny, when it comes to the sexy/hentai scenes google translate is wierdly accurate, and what i mean is that it feels like a genuine translation, though so far i only have experienced it with Minato Carnival works, but its still funny.

Edited by +StrikeR+

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That's the good way to use these tools: checking kanji/vocabulary you don't know. As long as you know your grammar, it's a good way to learn new vocab and the kanji with them. Or just a way to avoid learning kanji. :P

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5 hours ago, +StrikeR+ said:

Kanji/hiragana is where I'm stuck

I get the kanji part, but hiragana should be strait forward. You already know the idea of characters representing sounds and hiragana is just different characters based on the same system. Find a good hiragana cheat sheet online (yes, they are actually called that for some reason) and print it. Place the paper next to the monitor and then use hiragana furigana. This way you will be forced to look at the cheat sheet whenever you read a hiragana. That way you will force yourself to look at the paper frequently and fairly quickly you will remember some hiragana without looking at the paper and over time you will remember all of them. Combine this with other approaches to study hiragana as you need the theory behind some of them, like what's the difference between か and が. You really should learn how "sound modifiers" work instead of remembering each case they are used in as new characters.

If your hiragana studying consist of going through a list of hiragana trying to remember them all, then you will fail. It's so easy to remember them while you read the list and then forget them by the time you need them and reading the list again will not solve the problem. It's a matter of keeping a constant exposure, preferably daily to prevent yourself from forgetting what you learned during your last studying session.

Language studying not just a question of time spent. 30 minutes a day is more efficient than 4-5 hours once a week. The daily exposure and hence forcing your brain to not forget between studying sessions is quite valuable.

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So... uhhh what's the point of this discussions?

At this point i'm just reading official/fan TL.. pretty sure i'm not hardcore who read so many vn, i just enjoy it as a side hobby.

Honestly, Fuwa has fallen to became this low.. you guys should put a huge banner when enter this forum saying:

"You should learn the original language or we bash you" or "No Machine TL, No Fan TL, No Official TL, ORIGINAL LANGUAGE or BUST"

Look at the banner, "Make visual novel popular in the west" by what? by forcing people to learn and bash who for whatever reason didn't?

This display of superiority and elitism is disgusting.

*Don't get me wrong, i do respect for whoever actually learn and mastered japanese to read their favorite VN's, but please stop with that attitude.

Edited by Dizzy
tldr

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2 hours ago, Dizzy said:

So... uhhh what's the point of this discussions?

At this point i'm just reading official/fan TL.. pretty sure i'm not hardcore who read so many vn, i just enjoy it as a side hobby.

Honestly, Fuwa has fallen to became this low.. you guys should put a huge banner when enter this forum saying:

"You should learn the original language or we bash you" or "No Machine TL, No Fan TL, No Official TL, ORIGINAL LANGUAGE or BUST"

Look at the banner, "Make visual novel popular in the west" by what? by forcing people to learn and bash who for whatever reason didn't?

This display of superiority and elitism is disgusting.

*Don't get me wrong, i do respect for whoever actually learn and mastered japanese to read their favorite VN's, but please stop with that attitude.

I understand what you want to say here and how is your feeling right now. However what you said here is definitely didn't help at all, and if anything it's just like put the fuel to the fire for the thread that was already calmed down. As for your statement, I understand if you feel disagree with current situation here. However by just saying 'No Fan TL, No Official TL, ORIGINAL LANGUAGE or BUST' can be interpreted as if you (Sorry) didn't really respect the translator who already did their best to bring VN for overseas reader. Also if you look the community enough you'll notice that some user here actually read the translated only VNs, and no they didn't get bashed by the users who read Japanese only here. Also there's some user who didn't learn Japanese as well, and of course none of them did gotten bashed. In the end, as the community it's more or less back to each of their own if we talk about the preference to learn Japanese language or not.

tldr - I understand if you felt emotional just by seeing the discussion here, but if possible I would prefer you not saying indirectly that Fuwanovel here didn't accept people who didn't interested to learn Japanese or only accepted people who can read VN in Japanese, because it isn't and besides to some users (Including me here) it's quite rude to just lash out like that.

PS - To the mods here, feel free to lock this thread if things going wrong.

Edited by littleshogun

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27 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

"You should learn the original language or we bash you" or "No Machine TL, No Fan TL, No Official TL, ORIGINAL LANGUAGE or BUST"

Look at the banner, "Make visual novel popular in the west" by what? by forcing people to learn and bash who for whatever reason didn't?

That has nothing to do with this thread at all. Nobody said anything like that and nobody thinks like that. Human made translations is a good thing and they are read by everybody here. It's so easy to make other people look bad if you start to make fake quotes, but you will not win any popularity contents by doing so.

The debate here is about VNs with no translation at all. Can they be read using a machine translation or will the reader have to study Japanese in order to read such VNs? I fail to see the claimed "eliteism", which states you have to be able to read Japanese if no translation exist. It's merely stating facts.

If you just want to read VNs, which have English translations (official or fan made), then there is nothing in this thread, which will even remotely affect you.

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