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Your opinion on the Isekai genre?


Dreamysyu

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5 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Don't be afraid of your opinion, defend it, don't let some pesky tsundere tell you what is wrong and what is good, that is healthy.

Oh, don't worry about it, I'm probably the most hard-headed person around :makina:

6 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

As to speak about Subaru, he is whatever the writer wants him to be, and that has a name : bad writing. 

The funny thing is, Subaru is written to be hated (poorly written or not, it's for you to decide, I couldn't care less) and he's pretty much portrayed as a filthy piece of crap throughout the first half of the series. I didn't mind that. My biggest problem with Subaru lies in his development. I'm not gonna elaborate too much because probably nobody cares anymore (2016 is long gone :leecher:), but that's not how you write a natural looking character development. There is not such a switch that allows you to change who you are completely, and certainly a couple of traumatic experiences wouldn't immediately flip that non-existent switch and in the short run would probably only do more harm that good. That's just basic psychology. We change ourselves little by little, piece by piece, after trying different things and failing over and over. 

And on that note, since I still have Muv-Luv fresh in my mind, what do you guys think about Takeru's development? Not an anime, but I think it fits in the category of isekai VN.

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Just now, Thyndd said:

Oh, don't worry about it, I'm probably the most hard-headed person around :makina:

The funny thing is, Subaru is written to be hated (poorly written or not, it's for you to decide, I couldn't care less) and he's pretty much portrayed as a filthy piece of crap throughout the first half of the series. I didn't mind that. My biggest problem with Subaru lies in his development. I'm not gonna elaborate too much because probably nobody cares anymore (2016 is long gone :leecher:), but that's not how you write a natural looking character development. There is not such a switch that allows you to change who you are completely, and certainly a couple of traumatic experiences wouldn't immediately flip that non-existent switch and in the short run would probably only do more harm that good. That's just basic psychology. We change ourselves little by little, piece by piece, after trying different things and failing over and over. 

And on that note, since I still have Muv-Luv fresh in my mind, what do you guys think about Takeru's development? Not an anime, but I think it fits in the category of isekai VN.

Wanna know something?

Steins;Gate is an isekai VN.

Wow, i'm super controversial today, i start up by saying that Re;Zero is inconsistent, then i say something bad about Tolkien, and now i'm stating that Steins;Gate is an Isekai. 

Btw, nice job Thyndd, you understand what i find bad about Subaru, it's not the fact that he is a character writen to be hated.

Edited by Kurisu-Chan
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1 minute ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Wanna know something?

Steins;Gate is an isekai VN.

More of a chuunige than an isekai, I guess? But if you stretch it a little,yeah... I can see it.

1 minute ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Wow, i'm super controversial today, i start up by saying that Re;Zero is inconsistent, then i say something bad about Tolkien, and now i'm stating that Steins;Gate is an Isekai. 

That's only natural for a tsundere, Christina.

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Sword art online is not an Isekai, and doesn't deserve all the hate it got, the first light novel is good, the others are kinda bad, and some are interesting.

.hack// and .hack//G.U especially are a way better representation of the whole virtual reality game thingy.

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7 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Nope, a character, and by extension a protagonist, shouldn't be whatever the writer wants him to be, if it breaks laws of continuity and logic.

When you write a story, and thanks to 14 years of shitty writing in my backstory, the most important part of a story, for its believability, is the suspension of disbelief : when you establish a universe, you sign a contract with the reader/watcher, that for the rest of this story, you have this set of rules, the characters will follow this set of rules, and won't do anything that goes against the logic of the story.

If your character decides to act against its own logic or against the logic of the story 

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my biggest example is Rem forgetting about the gigantic murderous whale, even if it was established before in the show that the story reloads still follows the same structure, AKA, Rem knew about the gigantic whale, but didn't warn subaru because it would have prevented the show to continue.

Yes, obviously the writer is the master of the story, but you can't just spout any random bullshit for the sake of advancing the plot, you're not writing the story of a call of duty, your objective is to craft an actual good universe with characters that uses logic instead of deus ex machina, instead of being self-insert, instead of mary sue-ing their way.

Oh okay, I see your reasoning here. I was thinking of something else entirely when you said the characters shouldn't be whatever the writer wants them to be.

Oh and what's that about the whale? I know my memory's not the most reliable after a year or two, but I don't recall any experience Rem might've had to indicate that she knew about the whale.

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6 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

.hack// and .hack//G.U especially are a way better representation of the whole virtual reality game thingy.

.hack//sign is still the only "trapped in a video game" show I've watched to the end. Has a bad rap, though. I would say I'm not a fan of the newer examples of the genre, but I haven't given Overlord a good go yet. It's buried somewhere on my "to read" list.

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Spoiler

When they have to make the fucking run to Emilia's house, i think it was episode 13 or 14, Rem Mentions the giant whale as being super ultra dangerous, so they avoid the main route, but by doing so, they fail at arriving.

So, after that, Subaru goes through the route...but Rem Mysteriousely forgot about the giant Whale in the main route.

Also the reinhardt case, the character is Op and can literally do anything he wants...gets writen off the story because he would be too convenient for the plot.

Frankly, the number of bad writing and lazy solutions in Re;Zero are plenty.

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Just now, Darklord Rooke said:

.hack//sign is still the only "trapped in a video game" show I've watched to the end. Has a bad rap, though. I would say I'm not a fan of the newer examples of the genre, but I haven't given Overlord a good go yet. It's buried somewhere on my "to read" list.

I am mostly refering to the games, .hack//sign is frankly not that interesting, it barelly impacts the story of the game (the characters rarely appear in the story).

i prefer .hack//roots, since it has an actual impact in the story of .hack//G.U

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14 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:

Sword art online is not an Isekai, and doesn't deserve all the hate it got, the first light novel is good, the others are kinda bad, and some are interesting.

Eh, I think it's at least debatable. While your body is still physically present in the real world, your consciousness is still present somewhere else. Heck, even the act of daydreaming could be considered going to another world. But I suppose you could make an argument against it as well.

3 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:
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When they have to make the fucking run to Emilia's house, i think it was episode 13 or 14, Rem Mentions the giant whale as being super ultra dangerous, so they avoid the main route, but by doing so, they fail at arriving.

So, after that, Subaru goes through the route...but Rem Mysteriousely forgot about the giant Whale in the main route.

Also the reinhardt case, the character is Op and can literally do anything he wants...gets writen off the story because he would be too convenient for the plot.

 

Didn't Rem try to lead him away from the whale when he began to approach it? I could swear something like that occurred.

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Just now, Kenshin_sama said:

Eh, I think it's at least debatable. While your body is still physically present in the real world, your consciousness is still present somewhere else. Heck, even the act of daydreaming could be considered going to another world. But I suppose you could make an argument against it as well.

 

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Didn't Rem try to lead him away from the whale when he began to approach it? I could swear something like that occurred.

 

Spoiler

If she did that i wouldn't be so angry at the show.

Oh, also did i tell you that Rem's writing, who started as good, ended up being shit at that exact moment she decided to abandon all her logic.

 

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Btw, check out because i'll this week start my very own blog on fuwanovel.

I'll mostly do whatever i want, but specially, reviewing animes and VNs that i'm watching/playing, but from the point of view of a writer.

(And don't worry, i won't only talk about steins;gate 0...maybe).

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9 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I've liked the second season of SAO though, so I guess I'll forever stay a pariah... 

Nah buddy, you are not alone. I enjoyed SAO and I'm not embarrased to admit it. There are far worse shows out there, it's just that for some reason SAO became a meme. I mean, actually the reasons why something is more worthy of becoming a meme over others are always unknown. Oh, how would advertising agents wish that they could foresee that :sachi:

SAO was ok. It lacked a lot of things, but had plenty of others. It's undeniable that every SAO character (in the anime at least) is flat like a board, and that the plot is... well, it just isn't there :makina: But hey, it did have a good atmosphere, Aincrad looked great, and it just came in such a good time, when the VR technology was beginning to develop and everyone was excited about it. It just hit the jackpot. This made it feel much closer and relatable. 

I'll confess that I also liked the first half (Aincrad) way more than the second (Alfheim). I don't know if you are referring to this or the second SAO season with GGO and Mother's Rosario (my favorite arc, no doubt). Alfheim is for me the weakest part of SAO. It doesn't have the death pressure which was the only point that made the first half exciting, as the plot doesn't really go anywhere, and Asuna, a initially strong female character, was turned into a damsel in distress to be held captive by a rapey bastard. Way closer to a hentai that it needs to be. Oh, and don't forget the TENTACLE RAPE :leecher: Anyway, it still has some good scenes.

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11 minutes ago, Kurisu-Chan said:
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If she did that i wouldn't be so angry at the show.

Oh, also did i tell you that Rem's writing, who started as good, ended up being shit at that exact moment she decided to abandon all her logic.

 

 

Eh, I suppose I'll have to concede to your logic here. I skimmed through episode 16 to see how things lined up, and I guess it played out differently than I remember. Probably some kind of Mandela Effect nonsense. :P But hey, thanks for the debate!

Edited by Kenshin_sama
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9 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Alfheim is for me the weakest part of SAO.

Fairy Dance arc is pure cancer, I liked every other part of SAO though (and yeah, by the second season I meant the actual second season, starting with the GGO story - for some reason I've seen tons of people hating it with a passion). :>

Edited by Plk_Lesiak
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5 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

and Asuna, a initially strong female character, was turned into a damsel in distress to be held captive by a rapey bastard.

To be fair, there wasn't much she could do in that situation since that "rapey bastard" had nearly absolute authority over the system she was in.

And she did at least put up a fight and got very close to escaping (in other words, she wasn't Princess Peach, lol).

That said, I wasn't too fond of ALO either. :P

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Just now, Kenshin_sama said:

To be fair, there wasn't much she could do in that situation since that "rapey bastard" had nearly absolute authority over the system she was in.

 

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And she did at least put up a fight and got very close to escaping (in other words, she wasn't Princess Peach, lol).

 

That said, I wasn't too fond of ALO either. :P

Asuna is just a shitty BlackRose. (Yeh i know, i have to bring up my love for .hack// www

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1 minute ago, Kenshin_sama said:

To be fair, there wasn't much she could do in that situation since that "rapey bastard" had nearly absolute authority over the system she was in.

Yeah, once put in that situation, that's true. The thing is, don't construct that scenario in the first place :makina: It's totally unnecesary.

3 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Fairy Dance arc is pure cancer, I liked every other part of SAO though (and yeah, by the second season I meant the actual second season, starting with the GGO story - for some reason I've seen tons of people hating it with a passion). :>

Yeah, well, I do think GGO is a little lackluster, but it was entertaining for me. And really, just don't take too seriously anything people say about SAO... We are probably the only freaks who engaged in a serious conversation about it in the last 4 years :wahaha:

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1 minute ago, Thyndd said:

Yeah, once put in that situation, that's true. The thing is, don't construct that scenario in the first place :makina: It's totally unnecesary.

I don't know about that. I'm not far enough in the LN to for for sure, but there's a good possibility of that event coming up again in the future.

Sugou holding people captive for thought experiments isn't exactly insignificant, and Asuna being there did provide some much-needed perspective from the inside.

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Just now, Thyndd said:

Yeah, once put in that situation, that's true. The thing is, don't construct that scenario in the first place :makina: It's totally unnecesary.

Yeah, well, I do think GGO is a little lackluster, but it was entertaining for me. And really, just don't take too seriously anything people say about SAO... We are probably the only freaks who engaged in a serious conversation about it in the last 4 years :wahaha:

But the writer has any right to do whatever he wants.

 

...eh right, writing shitty plots is not a good idea.

Edited by Kurisu-Chan
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11 minutes ago, Kenshin_sama said:

I don't know about that. I'm not far enough in the LN to for for sure, but there's a good possibility of that event coming up again in the future.

 

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Sugou holding people captive for thought experiments isn't exactly insignificant, and Asuna being there did provide some much-needed perspective from the inside.

 

 

To be honest I didn't remember that, but now that you mention it, I do seem to recall something like that. Actually, wasn't it in the tentacle rape scene that she discovers that he retained the minds of other players who escaped Aincrad?

But anyway, it's just a bad idea to put aside a potentially good character when you don't even have a good plot in mind nor a good reason to do so. Both Kirito and Asuna could've got out of Aincrad and then discover that there were other players still trapped in it, and then go to defeat Sugou. Sugou's identity woud've been unknown, adding a little of spice to it. The waifu wars thingy was absurd and the over the top villain personality was so as well.

Edited by Thyndd
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34 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Nah buddy, you are not alone. I enjoyed SAO and I'm not embarrased to admit it. There are far worse shows out there, it's just that for some reason SAO became a meme. I mean, actually the reasons why something is more worthy of becoming a meme over others are always unknown. Oh, how would advertising agents wish that they could foresee that :sachi:

And now I'm again intrigued about what makes people to have different opinions about SAO. :yumiko: Though, speaking realistically, I'm probably going to hate it if I watch/read it, so, I guess, it's better to further stay away from it.

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2 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

And now I'm again intrigued about what makes people to have different opinions about SAO. :yumiko: Though, speaking realistically, I'm probably going to hate it if I watch/read it, so, I guess, it's better to further stay away from it.

Although you would be certainly a little bit late to the party, you can consider the experience of watching/reading it as another piece of weeb cultural baggage, why with it being so popular and all... So even if you end up hating it (which I doubt, if you go into it with 0 expectations, you will most likely be left indifferent), at least you would have that under your belt :sachi:

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20 minutes ago, Thyndd said:
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To be honest I didn't remember that, but now that you mention it, I do seem to recall something like that. Actually, wasn't it in the tentacle rape scene that she discovers that he retained the minds of other players who escaped Aincrad?

But anyway, it's just a bad idea to put aside a potentially good character when you don't even have a good plot in mind nor a good reason to do so. Both Kirito and Asuna could've got out of Aincrad and then discover that there were other players still trapped in it, and then go to defeat Sugou. Sugou's identity woud've been unknown, adding a little of spice to it. The waifu wars thingy was absurd and the over the top villain personality was so as well.

 

Actually, it was just slightly before the tentacle monsters show up that she discovered the illegal experiments. It's a little easier for me to recall since I started reading the LN again just a few months ago (which therefore gives me an unfair advantage in discussion :3).

The thing is, if there wasn't a capable character in her place, Kirito would've never made it past the door blocking off the area she was trapped in, and the thought experiments would've continued. And even if there was a capable character in her place, there's still the possibility that she wouldn't have had as much faith in anyone as Asuna did in Kirito to go through with tossing out the key card (and yeah, I know, that's lazy writing too, lol).

Oh and I personally liked Sugou's over-the-top antics. Stuff like this is why I enjoy watching anime so much. :D

3 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

And now I'm again intrigued about what makes people to have different opinions about SAO. :yumiko: Though, speaking realistically, I'm probably going to hate it if I watch/read it, so, I guess, it's better to further stay away from it.

Eh, I think it's worth giving a shot. Whether you like it, love it, or hate it, it's hard to get bored watching SAO. In fact, some critics say they even enjoy picking the show apart and finding out everything that's wrong with it. But if critical analysis isn't your thing, then your experience can either go north or south depending on how it clicks with ya. Just go in with low expectations.

Edited by Kenshin_sama
Okay, turns out I can't reformat this.
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